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At 1/8/04 01:33 PM, Taxman2A wrote: Good job bringing up Officers. I myself graduated college with a 3.6 GPA, yet I must still be unbelievably stupid to have joined the military. Jeeze, if I was smarter I would have been like everyone else at my university and gotten a job that would have stuck me in a cubicle for all eternity. That would have been so much smarter than having an enjoyable job that pays a competitive salary. I really regret doing a job I can feel proud of, rather than sitting in an office all day busting my ass to make some rich guy richer.

Well, if that's your idea of what's a job like, than you must live a sad live. Shocking fact: Not every job consists of spending the whole day in an office working for some asshole boss. I also think you have a very romanticized idea of what the military is like. I don't really know what's it like, but my dad has served and told me a lot of story's about how fucking hard it is. And what's to be proud of being a soldier? The fact that you co-operate with the evil schemes of the Bush administration?

At 1/8/04 02:01 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

At 1/8/04 01:33 PM, Taxman2A wrote: Good job bringing up Officers. I myself graduated college with a 3.6 GPA, yet I must still be unbelievably stupid to have joined the military. Jeeze, if I was smarter I would have been like everyone else at my university and gotten a job that would have stuck me in a cubicle for all eternity. That would have been so much smarter than having an enjoyable job that pays a competitive salary. I really regret doing a job I can feel proud of, rather than sitting in an office all day busting my ass to make some rich guy richer.

Well, if that's your idea of what's a job like, than you must live a sad live. Shocking fact: Not every job consists of spending the whole day in an office working for some asshole boss.

That's really sweet of you to think that. Get back to me on that in a couple years when you graduate to the real world and actually work for a living. Unlike you, I have worked for a corporation before.

I also think you have a very romanticized idea of what the military is like.

So let me get this straight, you ( who has never been in the military, nor has any idea what being a Marine or soldier is like) are telling me (who has spent several years in the Marine corps) that I have a romanticized view of the military? Oh, won't you please tell me how it really is ? lol, thanks for the wisdom, kid.

I don't really know what's it like,

no shit.

but my dad has served and told me a lot of story's about how fucking hard it is. And what's to be proud of being a soldier?

First off-- I'm not a soldier, I'm a Marine, there is a difference. Your dad was right when he told you it's fucking hard. That is one great reason to be proud-- because I accept challenges on a daily basis. But that isn't the real reason I'm proud-- I'm proud because I help young people. SHOCKING FACT: Not all of being a Marine involves shooting people. As a matter of fact 99% of my job is leading young people who are straight out of high school, away from their parents, and who are really quite in need of support. My job is much more about dealing with a 19 year old who is arrested for DUI, advising intelligent young people how they can make the most out of their years in the Corps, and doing my best to set a positive example than it is about killing.

Oh... that and we are all baby killers too.

all i want to say is that them guys in the car most likley didnt understand english, so they wouldnt of understood "stop" and that american soldiers arnt the smartest people alive, so i geuss that it happens all the time, so many incidents that they cant be bothered to punish all of them, because if they did, the american army would be a almighty 5 soldiers :D

At 1/8/04 02:25 PM, Taxman2A wrote: That's really sweet of you to think that. Get back to me on that in a couple years when you graduate to the real world and actually work for a living. Unlike you, I have worked for a corporation

Yet another shocking fact: You can also have a job that doesn't consist of working for a company

So let me get this straight, you ( who has never been in the military, nor has any idea what being a Marine or soldier is like) are telling me (who has spent several years in the Marine corps) that I have a romanticized view of the military? Oh, won't you please tell me how it really is ? lol, thanks for the wisdom, kid.

Dude, I told you I didn't have any experience with it, so don't act cool by telling me that okay?

I don't really know what's it like,

no shit.

Nope. I intend to keep it that way.

First off-- I'm not a soldier, I'm a Marine, there is a difference. Your dad was right when he told you it's fucking hard. That is one great reason to be proud-- because I accept challenges on a daily basis.

You don't have to be in the military for that.

:But that isn't the real reason I'm proud-- I'm proud because I help young people. SHOCKING FACT: Not all of being a Marine involves shooting people. As a matter of fact 99% of my job is leading young people who are straight out of high school, away from their parents, and who are really quite in need of support. My job is much more about dealing with a 19 year old who is arrested for DUI, advising intelligent young people how they can make the most out of their years in the Corps, and doing my best to set a positive example than it is about killing.

Well, I guess that's okay.

Oh... that and we are all baby killers too.

Good. Those things are irritating.

At 1/7/04 10:35 AM, Veggiemeal wrote: It wasn't an enemy cobatant, it was a citizen. Read before you speak will ya? As for the circumstances, there was some looting going on and the soldier who was part of the "quick reaction force" that was sent to stop this. The Iraqi's did not have any fire arms, and the soldier shot him at a 100 meters distance, so it wasn't excactly a life threatning situation, now was it?

You never said a civilian, did you? Besides, 100 meters is a long way away. Were warning shots fired?

You could be a terrorist too, so should I just shoot you? It was a car with an unarmed family inside, so it wasn't a threat at all. Just because the car didn't stop does not gave them a reason to shoot. That is against any rule of engagement.

Yes, since soldiers are gods, they can see exactly what everything is inside a car moving at a high speed. Brilliant. Oh, that`s right, people only find out who they shoot AFTERWARDS. And read up on your understanding of rules of engagement. The car posed a threat, and was dealed as such.

Well mister smarty pants, the thing is, HOW do you proof that the soldiers acted unjust? How do you prove it wasn't an act of war? The Iraqi's have to figure this out, and unless you have a videotape of the actual accident it's very hard to prove anything.

Well mister stuck up pants, there`s a thing called court marshal. The Iraqis can bring this to court, in order to question the soldier`s action(s).

Well, I just think the American government should be responsible for the acts of it's troops and should punish them when they misbehave. And I'd say you could hardly call the American shooting provoked. All the car did was not stopping. They did not shoot or anything. Besides, these are not by far the only civillian deaths that the Americans have unjustly caused so far. A lot more of these things happen and no US soldier has ever been punished so far. Perhaps sometimes they were right to shoot, but I highly doubt they were in all of those cases.

Misbehave? How the hell did they misbehave? As for ``all the car did was not stopping``, I think that everyone`s already answered that question.

At 1/8/04 02:45 AM, Veggiemeal wrote: First of all, you criticize me about how I say stuff about the military without knowing anything about it. Well, I'm not American (thank god) so I couldn't "harm your country from the inside". Also, I'm very skinny and I'm a vegetarian and I have some real ideals (not some shit a drill sergeant has pumped into my head, like some other people) so I don't eat at McDonald's. So much for my overweightness. I do still live with my parents but that's not exactly a surprise since I'm only 17. And I would rather get fucked in my ass by an elephant before I'd be so stupid to join the army. You call me stupid, but at least I'm smart enough to have proper education and I'll be able to find a real job where I don't get paid by shooting people. Or perhaps you did have some education, and that would make you even more stupid for wasting that by joining the military.

About the shooting thing at the car. Okay, perhaps this wasn't the best example. But as I said before, this just one of many. I posted this thread because a Dutch soldier was arrested because he shot an Iraqi, and I have yet to hear about a US soldier being busted for something like that. Now would you explain me how is could be that your great army does not punish any US soldiers when they recklessly shoot people in Iraq? I mean, shit like this happen in Iraq: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm but no soldier has ever been arrested in Iraq yet. So either the newspapers and channels are lying, or you are.

Well veggiemeal, you've done it, you have displayed your incredible disrespect for a country and for the brave men and women who risk their lives every day for the fight against terrorists and the protection of innocent people, and yet you call them stupid and unable to find a good job, did it ever once occur to your lowly-educated and anti-american mind that those brave soldiers are doing this for their country?

Secondly, the whole Dutch soldier shooting the iraqi was different from the American soldiers shooting the car because the Dutch clearly knew that the Iraqi was unarmed. The Americans had know way of knowing if the car driving through an outpost was a terrorist.

Third, you should realize how incredibley disrespectful and inconsiderate you are because you call joining the military "incredibly stupid." Without a military, your nation would have be taken out in a second by an outside oppressor, or your nation would be suicide bombed constantly without any resistance. You are just some "don't have a military, I like dictators conquering my country and oppressign me" sack of shit.

At 1/7/04 09:19 AM, Veggiemeal wrote:

The fun thing is, this never happens to any US soldiers. Two days ago, an entire Iraqi family was killed because US soldiers opened fire on their car, just because they passed a militairy post without stopping. The soldiers did not get any kind of punishment.

Yeah because suicide bombers are gonna stop and say "hey let me through I need to kill someone. Thats why there are sign's up written for the Iraqi people to understand that say "STOP MILITARY CHECKPOINT DO NOT PASS WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION OR YOU WILL BE FIRED UPON". Now why should the soldiers be punished?

At 1/8/04 07:12 PM, IceWraith15 wrote: You are just some "don't have a military, I like dictators conquering my country and oppressign me" sack of shit.

Dictatorships don't have an army?

At 1/8/04 12:29 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: a bunch of shit

Well, first of all, you are a vegeterian, so you are automatically unintellegent unless you grow your own food. People have already explained what I was going to argue, that it was a U.S. checkpoint, and that the family drove through. They were potential threats, and were dealt with accordingly (because the last time I checked, most intellegent attackers would not stop at an enemy check-point).

Say they do get caught. Which I am sure they would be caught if they did do it. Why would they want to draw media towards this. They woudn't. Anything drastic would probably be kept "hush-hush" to keep the good name. I don't really blame them either.

At 1/8/04 10:37 PM, True-Lies wrote: Well, first of all, you are a vegeterian, so you are automatically unintellegent unless you grow your own food.

Gee wiz, everyone is full of vast generalizations in this topic, hmm?

People have already explained what I was going to argue, that it was a U.S. checkpoint, and that the family drove through. They were potential threats, and were dealt with accordingly (because the last time I checked, most intellegent attackers would not stop at an enemy check-point).

Most intelligent attackers would find a way around a checkpoint, since when you don't stop at a checkpoint, you get killed.

So basicly everyone is condoning this as collateral damage then?

Signs in several different languages read similar to this:

United States Military Checkpoint
No access beyond this point
Deviators will be fired upon

If a family is stupid enough to pass by, they deserve to be shot.

You really shouldn't need a sign at all. If I was an Iraqi, and I saw a military base that belonged to the country that every now and again bombed the crap out of civilian buildings (I say the country, but I mean the alliance which includes my nation, the UK are just as good at crashing planes and misfiring smart missles at the mosques) accidentally, I really wouldn't need a sign to tell me that going through the gate means getting killed. Especially when I'd spent the last decade or so getting used to presidential palaces belonging to people who would torture or kill me if I went through the gates.

At 1/7/04 10:32 AM, Aleks777 wrote: Vegg you are right. America needs more discipline. They think they can run around in other peoples countries and do whatever they want. Well no they cant. Cause eventually they will fuck up by trying to get into another country while taht country is real anti-american. This will be the fall of the US military.

Excuse me?? So because a country is anti american that what?? makes their weapons more powerfull?? Just imagine this. We invade France... highly anti-american. Now what do you think will happen??? You don't honeestl believe France could win that war??

And about the car... soldiers don't KNOw which cars have suicide bombers in them and which don't. From my point of view it is better to shoot a car that had no bomb in it, killing even 10 civilians, then to let a bomber get through. and blow up god knows how many american soldiers, Iraqi security personnel, and civilians. I WOULD take your whole argument apart, but right now i'm just to lazy and can't be bothered, especially since others are doing it for me. Maybe later.
Let's test your IQ Veggiemeal, try to trace the analogy between what you just said and

this

At 1/7/04 03:48 PM, Quiche wrote: Why didn't the American soldiers just shoot the tires?

Do you know how hard it is to shoot out tires on a moving vehicle? This isn't Hollywood here!

I think people are focussing to much about that shit about the car here. That was just an example okay? Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but hey, errare humanum est. All I was saying that I found it akward that I have never heard of a US soldier getting arrested, wich I thought of when I heard of a Dutch soldier getting arrested. And I indeed show no respect for the US because I think it's a agressive and arrogant country. And I show no respect for the "brave soldiers" because the co-operate with this. And true-lies, you are a loser by saying every vegetarian is stupid. That is what I call stupid. Also, I find very funny that the only people who reacted on this topic to tell me exactly just how stupid I am are uber patriotic Americans (except for that one UK guy, but he's just a butt-kisser). You can call me names as much as you want, I don't give a shit if all you can give me are stupid responses like this.

At 1/9/04 12:52 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

:All I was saying that I found it akward that I have never heard of a US soldier getting arrested, wich I thought of when I heard of a Dutch soldier getting arrested.

The only reason I can think that the local News outlet in your area would have reported something like that, is that it's a rare occurance. Slow news day, I guess.

Not to say that American military forces are court marshalled that often, I'm just saying that it was probably the first time they had heard of a Dutch soldier being arrested for anything.

Am I making any sense here?

At 1/9/04 03:54 PM, Proteas wrote: Not to say that American military forces are court marshalled that often, I'm just saying that it was probably the first time they had heard of a Dutch soldier being arrested for anything.

Am I making any sense here?

If it was true it would make sense, but if there really are US soldiers getting court marshalled, then why don't I ever read about it on any anti-war websites or stuff like that? I mean, it would be nice anti-war propaganda to show how those soldiers are misbehaving and how they piss of the Iraqi people.

At 1/9/04 12:52 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: I think people are focussing to much about that shit about the car here. That was just an example okay? Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but hey, errare humanum est. All I was saying that I found it akward that I have never heard of a US soldier getting arrested, wich I thought of when I heard of a Dutch soldier getting arrested. And I indeed show no respect for the US because I think it's a agressive and arrogant country. And I show no respect for the "brave soldiers" because the co-operate with this.

Okay Veggiemeal, I'm not going to call you stupid. However, I dothink that you are probably less informed than you think you are. As a member of the US military, I can tell you there is a lot of restraint put on the men and women in the military. People get courtmartialed for making mistakes and breaking the rules almost daily. There is alot of training on discipline and about following the Law Of Armed Combat (LOAC) even for those who will probably never see combat. However, we have not always been perfect and we have lost this discpline at times (stories of US atrocities in Vietnam).

Did you know that in the Battle of Mogadishu in Somalia some Somali gunmen would have a woman stand in front and behind him (shooting between her legs) and then have children sit on top of him? Why? Because they knew that US soldier would NOT fire on unarmed women and children. I now people who have beendemoted because they shot an ARMED gunman in the back as the gunman fled after KILLING the Marine's buddy! My point is you are making an argument based not upon a preponderance of facts, instead you are making an argument when you should be asking questions and doing research.

Lastly, I am Patriotic but this Patriotism is not blind. The US has made mistakes. I agree with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and disagree with policy with Isreal. I do not want to go to war with N. Korea.

However, I also understand that historically alot of the problems the US deals with internationally TODAY (as in the last 50-70 years) are the result of centuries of European colonialism and interference (mainly England, France and Germany). For example Jews and Muslims mostly lived in peace in Palestine until European/Christian intervention caused schism. Thus we have the problems in Isreal & Palestine, as well as the rest of the Arab world. We went into Vietnam to help the French with their colony.

After WWII we helped Germany and Japan get back on their feet and become productive first world countries. Deviating from the centuries old model given to us by the Europeans, we have turned the governing of these lands back to their respective nationals just as we have in afghanistan and we will do in Iraq.

You seem to be a preceptive young man, the first sign of intelligence. Educate yourself, and realize that at 17, 28, 50, 0r 100 you will not know everything nor will you have all the answers. However, there will always be someone to learn from.

If it was true it would make sense, but if there really are US soldiers getting court marshalled, then why don't I ever read about it on any anti-war websites or stuff like that? I mean, it would be nice anti-war propaganda to show how those soldiers are misbehaving and how they piss of the Iraqi people.

Think about it critically, if US soldiers ARE getting punished that would UNDERMINE the anti-war/military presupposition that the military does not care about war crimes and that US soldiers do get away with everything.

What these sites want to see is servicemen misbehaving and NOT getting punished, anything else works against their propaganda. Do not just question the other sides information, but your side's as well.

At 1/8/04 09:22 PM, swallowing_shit wrote:

At 1/8/04 07:12 PM, IceWraith15 wrote: You are just some "don't have a military, I like dictators conquering my country and oppressign me" sack of shit.

Dictatorships don't have an army?

You know swallows, for someone who writes alot of posts you cannot read worth shit can you? The point Wraith is making anti-war people do not want an army. This in turn makes a country vulnerable to invasion and oppression from a tyrannical power, probably a dictatorship. Anything else I can help you understand?

If it was true it would make sense, but if there really are US soldiers getting court marshalled, then why don't I ever read about it on any anti-war websites or stuff like that? I mean, it would be nice anti-war propaganda to show how those soldiers are misbehaving and how they piss of the Iraqi people.

I'm sorry that I cannot let this issue drop. I keep thinking of examples and things you are just not reading out there. When we go into other countries we are subject to those countries' laws when we are off-base. We are trained to respect local custom and cultures.

If we deviate from these cultural norms then we are turned over to local authorities for trial. This has happened in a few high profile cases in Japan and Korea.

Again if you set your information filter to only let you read information that conforms to what you have already predetermined to be right, you lose sight of the big picture and the answers you seek will slip between your fingers.

Let me summarize the two sides here:

1: I don't know anything about the world, except a few basic precepts, like "don't kill people". The US army is killing people, therefore they are evil bastards.

2: I understand quite abit about history and military maneuvers. I know that every civilian is a potential guerrilla fighter. I also know that in a militarized zone, there is a constant danger of being killed. Therefore, the people who are TRULY trying not to die are those who have taken refuge in another country. That means that there are only two types of civilians left : Guerillas posing as civilians, and stubborn idiots with a deathwish.

At 1/10/04 03:26 PM, TheMason wrote: The point Wraith is making anti-war people do not want an army. This in turn makes a country vulnerable to invasion and oppression from a tyrannical power, probably a dictatorship.

Yes I know, I was merely pointing out the fact that he had phrased it in an immature and illogical manner.

At 1/10/04 03:35 PM, JudgeFUNK wrote: Let me summarize the two sides here:

1: I don't know anything about the world, except a few basic precepts, like "don't kill people". The US army is killing people, therefore they are evil bastards.

"Thou shalt not kill." The second Commandment (how ironic), Exodus 20:13
Usually this was waved in Biblical times when God deemed it necessary for Israel to wage war against Israel's enemies, and only when Israel completely wiped out a nation.

Just an interesting tidbit I thought you might like.

They did what they are trained too do. Its not their fault the stupid family kept on going when told to stop. And before you say the family didnt understand English, there was a person thelling them to stop in 3 other languages as well!

I think I'm going to try an enter a prison without checking in at the door.... lets see what happens to me. Oh wait, I KNOW what will happen. I'll get arrested, possibly shot at, definitely handcuffed, and most assuredly charged. Now that's just CIVILIAN. Imagine what would happen in a MILITARIZED zone. Oh wait, we know that one too. I WOULD GET SHOT.

At 1/7/04 09:19 AM, Veggiemeal wrote: Two days ago, an entire Iraqi family was killed because US soldiers opened fire on their car, just because they passed a militairy post without stopping. The soldiers did not get any kind of punishment.

Veg, are you stupid, or do you just like to skew facts to get ur point acorss?

All vehicles are supposed to stop at military checkpoints. It would be neglect for the soldiers posted at the checkpoint to just allow a car to drive through, when that is known to be a weapon of choice for suicide bombers. I think it was pretty dumb for the Iraqi to have driven through such a guarded area without following any signs or directions as how to comply with standard procedure.

Quit the anti-American BS and get your facts straight. Even though u may think that the war is unjust, you should still support the troops who have the guts to serve and put their lives on the line for their country. How dare you throw insults at the hardest-working citizens in the U.S. while ur just sitting on ur @$$ behind a computer screen.

At 1/8/04 02:37 PM, Aghh wrote: all i want to say is that them guys in the car most likley didnt understand english, so they wouldnt of understood "stop" and that american soldiers arnt the smartest people alive, so i geuss that it happens all the time, so many incidents that they cant be bothered to punish all of them, because if they did, the american army would be a almighty 5 soldiers :D

all I want to say is that ur a moron ..... are really that stupid as to think that a military checkpoint would not have signs posted in the country's native language???

At 1/9/04 12:52 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

:And true-lies, you are a loser by saying every vegetarian is stupid you are stupid.

Ok Veggie, I can respect your stance on this. But the simple fact of the matter is that unless you grow and pick your own food, you are no better than the "murderers" that you dub us meat lovers. The fact that I have stated, and that you have seen (but didn't care to acknowledge) is that in fact, YOUR DIET is responsible for the death of MILLIONS of field animals caught in the harvesting combines every year. If you would have dropped your BS anti-American tyrade for just a moment and read a bit more carefully, you would have seen that my whole statement went like this, "First of all, since you are a vegeterian, you are automatically unintellegent, unless of course you grow your own food".

Let me take a step in the direction of the noble jackass (the direction which Veggie has probably been since the first time he saw a PETA commercial) and make a few broad generalization about you. I bet you're the same type of jerk who's mainly a vegeterian so that you can tell people it with the smug satisfaction of the knowledge (or so you think) that you are above this meat eating facist. The simple fact that your name points to you being a vegeterian is all the evidence I need of that.

You're the type of college drop-out who dosen't care about getting his facts straight; you've apparently got all the "right" answers, and you'll be damned if anyone else will tell you something diffrent. You don't need the support of something we here on this little place called "Earth" call "evidence" to support your claims. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you also shun a revolutionary idea called "logic".

The evidence is there; the dumbass with his family was supposed to STOP at the military check-point. He drove through and got himself and his family killed. The soldiers in question, unless you can prove otherwise (and I'm sure you'll try, logic be damned of course) that they were somehow in violation of the law in firing upon a potential suicide bomber.

To quote a certain hellish and sarcastic demon that we all know and love, "Veggie Meal, you sir, are a FUCKING, MORON. Thank you, thank you.".