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At 4/6/09 08:59 AM, Pugberto wrote:

At 4/6/09 07:44 AM, Brick-top wrote: Strengthening the body and spirit? In what way?

Making you feel a sense of purpose gives you a greater attitude, if you are happy then you are in good health mentally and physically. (Ignoring illnesses etc, if you can conceive what I mean) You know how laughter is good for heart. In that sense.

I can see you're trying very carefully not to make it sound like an emotional crutch.

But if Religion is the main cause for your happiness, then logically it is.

Either way I'd adore to see evidence showing Religious beliefs can cause emotional and physical superiority compared to those with no Religious beliefs.

It sounds like you're flirting around the idea Jesus is only used for some sort of emotional support.

Not in the sense you are thinking of, it's more of guidance to how you should live your life.

So you're given a collection of unchanging rules to how your life should be lived?

If you can't decide for yourself, what's the point living life?

Faith has no uses. The definition alone states accepting something without evidence, if there is no demand for evidence then society will be going backwards.

It has a use for me and billions of others. So that statement is invalid.

What use?

Here's a fun challenge.

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Like for example how to live your life happily and healthily, you don't need Religion for that.

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At 4/5/09 11:51 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 4/5/09 11:42 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: Your mind can affect your body can it not?

Doesn't mean it does in this particular instance.

But it does affect your actions.

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At 4/6/09 09:56 AM, Brick-top wrote: I can see you're trying very carefully not to make it sound like an emotional crutch.

I see where you're coming from but I myself don't have emotional problems, I am very happy with my curret life. I don't actually depend on my faith for my entire well being, if I did then it may back fire. You need to look out for yourself as well.

But if Religion is the main cause for your happiness, then logically it is.

Not my entire happiness, I have lot's of things I am glad to have.

Either way I'd adore to see evidence showing Religious beliefs can cause emotional and physical superiority compared to those with no Religious beliefs.

Here's a study Oh and heres another Google before things before coming out with stupid statements

So you're given a collection of unchanging rules to how your life should be lived?

Well yes I am, most of them don't need changing. Some of course are invalid today in most parts of the world. Without religion people wouldn't have been so strict in order to make people behave socially, it has benefited the world in that sense.

If you can't decide for yourself, what's the point living life?

What's the point of life if you think it's an accident? So what if you die tomorrow it doesn't matter because it's sooner and not later. Either way you believe that you stopped living altogether.

What use?

Here's a fun challenge.

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Like for example how to live your life happily and healthily, you don't need Religion for that.

1. FriendshipFriendship is a vital element of any religion. Congregation members can make wonderful and lasting friendships that can last a lifetime. The church is a place to meet others that share your beliefs giving you a strong platform to build a friendship on.

2. Spiritual Growth Your beliefs will be strengthened and confirmed. You will explore your spirituality and from that can come personal growth. Your faith can help you find answers to those difficult questions and help you better understand your purpose in this world. Spiritual growth is a very personal adventure.

3. Mental Health Religion has been show to improve a person's mental well being. Their belief system is reinforced and the interaction with other congregational members is very beneficial to one overall mental health.

4. Physical Health We have all read and heard about cases where a person's physical well being has been improved by their religious beliefs. There are many documented cases where person's beliefs have been the reason for their ability to fight a disease and become healthy again or to overcome obstacles and challenges relating to their health.

5.Community Religion builds community as individuals share their faith with other brothers and sisters of their religion. Social gatherings and meeting encourage a community to grow and prosper within the faith.

6. Creative Expression Religion also builds creativity and artistic skills through music and prayer. Congregational members are also able to increase their skill by participating in the choir or helping decorate the hall for a celebration.

7. A Break Attending church sets a recognizable break away from work, family issues, and self fulfilling issues. It's a time out period that is dedicated to concentrating on the Lord.

8. Consoling Many people have found help for loneliness and grief in religion. In fact many have been known to turn to religion after the loss of a partner or loved one. In times of sadness and loneliness the church congregation and religion can be very consoling to a person.

9. StrengthThe faith in ones religion can give a person the strength to carry on, to struggle through obstacles and become a stronger and better person from the experience.

10. Life Changing For some finding faith can be life changing. We've all heard of criminals that found God and turned their lives around to become a productive member in society.

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At 4/6/09 03:23 PM, Pugberto wrote:

At 4/6/09 09:56 AM, Brick-top wrote: I can see you're trying very carefully not to make it sound like an emotional crutch.

I see where you're coming from but I myself don't have emotional problems, I am very happy with my curret life. I don't actually depend on my faith for my entire well being, if I did then it may back fire. You need to look out for yourself as well.

Hang on, your links suggest Religious people are happier than Atheists.

I knew you were going to pop a few links and shoot yourself in the foot.

If Religion does cause happiness then it is used as emotional support.

But if Religion is the main cause for your happiness, then logically it is.

Not my entire happiness, I have lot's of things I am glad to have.

I never said entire, I said the main cause. Your links have shown this.

Either way I'd adore to see evidence showing Religious beliefs can cause emotional and physical superiority compared to those with no Religious beliefs.

Here's a study Oh and heres another Google before things before coming out with stupid statements

I'll see your two and raise you four.

1

1A

2

3

3A

4

Don't you just love numeric links?

So you're given a collection of unchanging rules to how your life should be lived?

Well yes I am, most of them don't need changing. Some of course are invalid today in most parts of the world. Without religion people wouldn't have been so strict in order to make people behave socially, it has benefited the world in that sense.

lol what?

Yes, I'm using the term 'lol' because there is no other synonym to describe my reaction.

Your society (and mine) have been developed by ever changing laws and regulations by people using their natural desire to preserve the species over a long period of time. You might criticise it greatly however in comparison to nations with no social structure you're living in what can only be described as a Utopia.

Before you say the laws of the Bible are enforced in law you need to establish they were the first in the world to establish these laws and modern society is derived from it.

If you can't decide for yourself, what's the point living life?

What's the point of life if you think it's an accident?

Who said it's an accident?

So what if you die tomorrow it doesn't matter because it's sooner and not later. Either way you believe that you stopped living altogether.

What relevance does this have to do with my question?

If your life is governed by unchanging rules what's the point if you can't decide for yourself how to live?

Government laws can also govern our lives to a degree, however these are continuously changing.

What use?

Here's a fun challenge.

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Like for example how to live your life happily and healthily, you don't need Religion for that.

1. FriendshipFriendship is a vital element of any religion. Congregation members can make wonderful and lasting friendships that can last a lifetime. The church is a place to meet others that share your beliefs giving you a strong platform to build a friendship on.

This can be done by other means.

2. Spiritual Growth Your beliefs will be strengthened and confirmed. You will explore your spirituality and from that can come personal growth. Your faith can help you find answers to those difficult questions and help you better understand your purpose in this world. Spiritual growth is a very personal adventure.

Which inhibits criticism.

3. Mental Health Religion has been show to improve a person's mental well being. Their belief system is reinforced and the interaction with other congregational members is very beneficial to one overall mental health.

And Atheism has been shown to cause less crime, less divorces, higher intelligence etc.

4. Physical Health We have all read and heard about cases where a person's physical well being has been improved by their religious beliefs. There are many documented cases where person's beliefs have been the reason for their ability to fight a disease and become healthy again or to overcome obstacles and challenges relating to their health.

ABC and the Telegraph forgot to mention this can ONLY happen during meditation, study and prayer. Just believing in God wont inherently make you happier or healthier. There are ample alternatives or meditation.

I'd also like to add 90% of those conducted in the study were Christian while it's only 78.5% in the general population

5.Community Religion builds community as individuals share their faith with other brothers and sisters of their religion. Social gatherings and meeting encourage a community to grow and prosper within the faith.

Once again, this can be done by alternative means. There is even an Atheist club thread on Newgrounds.

6. Creative Expression Religion also builds creativity and artistic skills through music and prayer. Congregational members are also able to increase their skill by participating in the choir or helping decorate the hall for a celebration.

Once again and again, artistry can be performed through alternative means.

Vincent Van Gogh
"I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create."

7. A Break Attending church sets a recognizable break away from work, family issues, and self fulfilling issues. It's a time out period that is dedicated to concentrating on the Lord.

There are a MASSIVE amount of alternatives for this. For me, I like reading.

8. Consoling Many people have found help for loneliness and grief in religion. In fact many have been known to turn to religion after the loss of a partner or loved one. In times of sadness and loneliness the church congregation and religion can be very consoling to a person.

Appeal to emotion. Read above because I'm sick of saying there are alternatives.

9. StrengthThe faith in ones religion can give a person the strength to carry on, to struggle through obstacles and become a stronger and better person from the experience.

Emotional crutch.

You're setting your own traps and falling right through them.

10. Life Changing For some finding faith can be life changing. We've all heard of criminals that found God and turned their lives around to become a productive member in society.

Conjecture. By the way, in that prisoner percentage link if you dare try to say they converted while in prison I'd hate to tell you, the statistics were taken as they went in.

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At 4/6/09 08:33 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

But there is more than just religious Faith.

Don't you even start with the word mixing.
We're talking about religious faith here, i.e. the faith that even though there's 0 evidence for something, it will come true anyway.

That's even lower than thinking you're going to win the lottery because there's evidence that you at least have a chance to win that.

Whenever people say "faith" in a religious thread, we're talking about RELIGIOUS FAITH. It's like if I made a thread about hockey and then was talking about pucks and you're like 'but wait there's also Puck, from the Shakespeare Play!!".

Man I'm sick of explaining this though.
Every time I have to tell someone who's trying to use the word faith/ belief on equal terms for science and religion to die.

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Here's something I'd like to ask. I've heard a lot of good arguments from both sides, but what about this? Whenever I hear about the world's longest living people, a lot of them attribute to their faith. I have also heard that people with religious faith recover from diseases faster. Is it true that religious people live longer? And if so, what have you got against that?

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At 4/6/09 07:52 PM, Ericho wrote: Is it true that religious people live longer? And if so, what have you got against that?

You probably have alot less stress when you believe that all your problams will be solved by the magic man in the sky.
It could have statistical reasons. 99% of world believing in god+old people born in very religious era= majority of old are religious.

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At 4/6/09 07:52 PM, Ericho wrote: Here's something I'd like to ask. I've heard a lot of good arguments from both sides, but what about this? Whenever I hear about the world's longest living people, a lot of them attribute to their faith.

Firstly, find out who are the people with the longest life span on earth and prove they attributed their vast age to their faith.

I have also heard that people with religious faith recover from diseases faster. Is it true that religious people live longer? And if so, what have you got against that?

Is it true? You could find out by searching for a direct study or correlate the average life expectancy with the percentage of Religious people living in it (but other factors would fuck up that idea)

At 4/6/09 05:44 PM, Brick-top wrote: There are ample alternatives to meditation.

Fixed for dramatic effect.

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At 4/6/09 06:55 PM, poxpower wrote: It's like if I made a thread about hockey and then was talking about pucks and you're like 'but wait there's also Puck, from the Shakespeare Play!!".

Hockey doesn't always have pucks. There's also field hockey.

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At 4/6/09 06:55 PM, poxpower wrote:
Don't you even start with the word mixing.
We're talking about religious faith here, i.e. the faith that even though there's 0 evidence for something, it will come true anyway.

And my argument still applies to religious faith, and my PM questions.

How much do you think comes from the placebo of respect, and how much placebo faith do you think can fool a person into respect?

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Urhm... Brick...

I'm pretty sure Pug was just listing uses in response to your original argument that "faith has no use"... not the argument you shifted to in the middle of things that "faith has no unique use."

I think it's pretty obvious that there are adequate alternatives to everything religious faith offers, but that doesn't mean faith has no use. If the presence of alternative alone determined utility of a particular method, then both methods being compared would be nullified.

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At 4/7/09 12:42 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: Urhm... Brick...

It was in response to this.

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Like for example how to live your life happily and healthily, you don't need Religion for that.

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Or he's listing things which have no relevance to the quoted section of my post.

But then, why would he keep the quote there? Why would he number his list?

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At 4/7/09 02:48 PM, Brick-top wrote:

At 4/7/09 12:42 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: Urhm... Brick...

It was in response to this.

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Like for example how to live your life happily and healthily, you don't need Religion for that.

Alright then... rather then us going back and forth about what we assume pug meant... despite his also including "what use?" in the quote to which he replied (just making sure you don't intend to start rewriting history now).

So which is your argument?

1. Religious faith has no use.
2. Religious faith has no unique use.

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At 4/7/09 03:17 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: Alright then... rather then us going back and forth about what we assume pug meant... despite his also including "what use?" in the quote to which he replied (just making sure you don't intend to start rewriting history now).

If he was answering that he would've either did it above the challenge paragraph or cut it out. Or perhaps it was his intentions to skip the challenge paragraph and he's just lazy with his presentation.

But for now, I'm going to just assume he answered both.

So which is your argument?

1. Religious faith has no use.
2. Religious faith has no unique use.

Probably the former and the latter considering they're either fallacies or there are alternatives to what was stated by pug.

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You don't need religion. More like you don't need anything.

Food, shelter maybe?

What do you really need to do anything?

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To say that ANY thing has no use is wrong in a way as well.

If it had no use at all it would not exist.

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At 4/7/09 04:27 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: You don't need religion. More like you don't need anything.

Food, shelter maybe?

What do you really need to do anything?

If it were literally 'anything' then there would be a large amount of items.

If it's a specific task then you need to write a shopping list.

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At 4/7/09 04:19 PM, Brick-top wrote: But for now, I'm going to just assume he answered both.

Well. I'm going to give him more credit for having a brain and assume he was just lazy or is the type that quotes holistically (not everyone omits like you and me). I'm going to assume this because he seems to speak with more intelligence than someone who would say religion is the only way to physical well being. That... and his user page shows him playing games, which I bet he'd consider another kind of break. And that he still quoted in his last response "what use?" which was a continuation of the original argument (that for some reason vanished in lieu of the second shortly after).

Probably the former and the latter considering they're either fallacies

Religion doesn't foster a sense of community? It doesn't inspire art?

I wonder who said this... "it is used as emotional support."

or there are alternatives to what was stated by pug.

Well clearly.

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At 4/7/09 04:34 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: playing games

Whoops. Watching T.V. with a pillow man. He's having fun with something diversionary - is the point.

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At 4/7/09 04:34 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:

At 4/7/09 04:19 PM, Brick-top wrote: But for now, I'm going to just assume he answered both.

Well. I'm going to give him more credit for having a brain and assume he was just lazy or is the type that quotes holistically (not everyone omits like you and me).

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ba dum tch.

Probably the former and the latter considering they're either fallacies

Religion doesn't foster a sense of community? It doesn't inspire art?

With a few of the links I provided, the former isn't likely.

The latter? Not too sure, I suppose the reason behind the art and the artist has some relevance alongside the art itself.

But there are two famous paintings which come to mind and I don't know specifically why they were made or the beliefs of the makers.

However, along with my Van Gogh example, there are countless alternatives. Actually my post made the Van Gogh painting and quoting somewhat of a joke.

*Atheists are the lowest group in prison*

Van Gogh "I don't need God in my life"

*picture of the round of the prisoners*

Funny no?

I wonder who said this... "it is used as emotional support."

Evidently it is, but not falling to your knee's and crying for months on end isn't going to inherently make you become an artist.

or there are alternatives to what was stated by pug.

Well clearly.

So what use does Religion serve if there are countless alternatives which do not bear the weight of acceptance without evidence? (aka faith)

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Bacchanalian, to make you happier, would you like me to refute that part again?

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At 4/7/09 04:57 PM, Brick-top wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh Heh. It looks like I said you had no brain. I didn't mean it that way. It was meant, "his having a brain as oppose to his not having a brain," not, "his having a brain as oppose to you not having a brain." Also... there are people who don't omit parts of the passages they quote. I used to be that way.

With a few of the links I provided, the former isn't likely.

I'm going to assume, since we're all doing it, that some people do derive a strong sense of community from their church groups - especially if they say they do.

The latter? Not too sure, I suppose the reason behind the art and the artist has some relevance alongside the art itself.

So a painting of God was in no way inspired by religion but rather for art itself?

However, along with my Van Gogh example, there are countless alternatives.

How do you mean alternatives here? Alternative examples of atheist artists?

Funny no?

That is cute. I like.

Evidently it is, but not falling to your knee's and crying for months on end isn't going to inherently make you become an artist.

That wasn't a tie-in to the artist argument. I was citing it as a use separate from the other two: artistic(1) and socially-cohesive(2) uses.

So what use does Religion serve if there are countless alternatives which do not bear the weight of acceptance without evidence? (aka faith)

It's about time you put all three parts of the argument together.

Religion serves as emotional support regardless of alternatives or better alternatives - particularly when the qualification for what makes better alternatives better doesn't really alter the efficacy of what religion is providing. There are cases where efficacy is diminished. There are quite a few.

However...

Trading up from religion to science regarding 'emotional support' or 'community' isn't exactly like trading up from an axe to a chainsaw. It would be if the subject was something like... creation.

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At 4/7/09 05:27 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:

At 4/7/09 04:57 PM, Brick-top wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh Heh.

You reeeeeallllly missed the joke didn't you?

With a few of the links I provided, the former isn't likely.

I'm going to assume, since we're all doing it, that some people do derive a strong sense of community from their church groups - especially if they say they do.

Depends on what you call 'community' and what it applies to.

The latter? Not too sure, I suppose the reason behind the art and the artist has some relevance alongside the art itself.

So a painting of God was in no way inspired by religion but rather for art itself?

Once at school I drew a design for a car. Cars weren't the inspiration, the method of drawing itself was.

However, along with my Van Gogh example, there are countless alternatives.

How do you mean alternatives here? Alternative examples of atheist artists?

Alternative art, artists etc.

Funny no?

That is cute. I like.

Evidently it is, but not falling to your knee's and crying for months on end isn't going to inherently make you become an artist.

That wasn't a tie-in to the artist argument. I was citing it as a use separate from the other two: artistic(1) and socially-cohesive(2) uses.

I see.

So what use does Religion serve if there are countless alternatives which do not bear the weight of acceptance without evidence? (aka faith)

It's about time you put all three parts of the argument together.

Religion serves as emotional support regardless of alternatives or better alternatives - particularly when the qualification for what makes better alternatives better doesn't really alter the efficacy of what religion is providing. There are cases where efficacy is diminished. There are quite a few.

Sort of. My original intent was to make people see actions caused by the religious can be caused by anyone else of any other belief and therefore serves no special usage.

But pug hasn't replied yet.

However...

Trading up from religion to science regarding 'emotional support' or 'community' isn't exactly like trading up from an axe to a chainsaw. It would be if the subject was something like... creation.

Don't most Religions already have a conclusion on our creation?

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At 4/7/09 05:43 PM, Brick-top wrote: You reeeeeallllly missed the joke didn't you?

No no I saw it. I just started rambling after that.

Depends on what you call 'community' and what it applies to.

Can I get a for instance in which a particular definition of community is never/ or very rarely fostered by religion?

The latter? Not too sure, I suppose the reason behind the art and the artist has some relevance alongside the art itself.

So a painting of God was in no way inspired by religion but rather for art itself?

Once at school I drew a design for a car. Cars weren't the inspiration, the method of drawing itself was.

Yeah. I figured using the term inspiration would bite me in the ass pretty quickly. It was a mistake on my part. I'm going to rephrase... did you use cars in order to draw them?

Alternative art, artists etc.

But that doesn't void that which it is an alternative to. Below... you got much closer to why it sorta does.

Sort of. My original intent

Well that's not what you said originally! :P

Don't most Religions already have a conclusion on our creation?

Yes. In the example there the hypothetical person is trading up from creation to evolution.

Though the analogy is broken. I'm half right, and mostly wrong somehow... class... beginning... I'll be back to fix my analogy.

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Ok. The axe chainsaw analogy. The efficiency of the tool represents the efficacy of a belief under either science or religion.

So I compared, as an example, creation to evolution. Creation being the axe and evolution being the chainsaw. This only gets the analogy half way to what we're talking about though and more importantly your point, Brick.

Where emotional support, or artistic source material, or social cohesion are concerned... the analogy plays itself out more like this: social cohesion without religious faith would be something like a chainsaw - social cohesion by religious faith would be something like an chainsaw that, after prolonged use, causes deafness. It still cuts through trees, but it screws some other stuff up.

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At 4/7/09 06:00 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:

At 4/7/09 05:43 PM, Brick-top wrote: You reeeeeallllly missed the joke didn't you?

No no I saw it. I just started rambling after that.

Depends on what you call 'community' and what it applies to.

Can I get a for instance in which a particular definition of community is never/ or very rarely fostered by religion?

a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.

Anyone of any belief, opinion etc can create or avoid a community.

C&C on newgrounds is a good example.

The latter? Not too sure, I suppose the reason behind the art and the artist has some relevance alongside the art itself.

So a painting of God was in no way inspired by religion but rather for art itself?

Once at school I drew a design for a car. Cars weren't the inspiration, the method of drawing itself was.

Yeah. I figured using the term inspiration would bite me in the ass pretty quickly. It was a mistake on my part. I'm going to rephrase... did you use cars in order to draw them?

In some cases yes, in others no. I just drew for the sake of drawing, whatever popped into my head went on paper.

Alternative art, artists etc.

But that doesn't void that which it is an alternative to. Below... you got much closer to why it sorta does.

Health
Mentality
Morality
Community
Relaxation
epiphany's

These can all easily and effectively be achieved without the need or want for Religion.

Sort of. My original intent

Well that's not what you said originally! :P

Name me one beneficial thing Religious people can do which cannot be achieved through other means.

Actions, mentality or physically gains no unique treatment from Religion.

Don't most Religions already have a conclusion on our creation?

Yes. In the example there the hypothetical person is trading up from creation to evolution.

Though the analogy is broken. I'm half right, and mostly wrong somehow... class... beginning... I'll be back to fix my analogy.

Society - Chainsaw
Religious society - Chainsaw with deafness.

Is that right?

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So am I getting this right that the only argument so for not respecting religion is:

- It's scientifically wrong (no fucking shit)
- You can achieve the self-help/community through other means

Because that's a pretty weak argument for getting rid of something.

I suppose, it creates a filter between your mind and yourself. So if you get rid of ALL of those (society included) you would come up with a much stronger self.

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At 4/8/09 09:47 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: So am I getting this right that the only argument so for not respecting religion is:

- It's scientifically wrong (no fucking shit)
- You can achieve the self-help/community through other means

Because that's a pretty weak argument for getting rid of something.

The former is more than enough. Not unless you want to live in third world conditions.

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It's culturally entrenched.

You can't get rid of it. You have to change it into something else to even begin to get rid of it.