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At 3/28/09 12:47 PM, MrCarrotFace wrote: well at least christains dont go burning them selves alive like the buddhist monks of the 60s

;;;;
Well that doesn't stop me from hoping they will .

At 3/28/09 12:47 PM, MrCarrotFace wrote: well atleast christains dont go blowing themselves up to kill a bunch of non christains .....or go burning them selves alive like the buddhist monks of the 60s

You don't understand the culture of these people; if you did you would understand why they do this. Suicide to Christians gets them into hell, and if you were raised Christian, I can understand your misunderstanding. Buddhists believe they will be reincarnated, and if they die for a cause they believe in, then they will possibly be reincarnated into a better form. Muslims believe that even if death is caused by themselves, if they fight in a battle against any enemy of theirs they will go immediately to heaven. It's basically the same thing that was going on during the crusades; Christians who fought in the Crusades and died immediately went to heaven even if they did something crazy that they knew would get themselves killed.

I don't really care if you dis abrahamic religions, I've never been fond of them. Buddhists are very peaceful people though, and just because they have a different view on suicide doesn't mean you can lump them in with suicide bombers.

At 3/28/09 01:02 AM, thedo12 wrote:

At 3/27/09 04:30 PM, aninjaman wrote:
What I meant was no athiest could go "No atheist has killed people due to their stance on religion."

I hope your not saying atheism is a religous belief.

No but atheists do have a stance on religion.
Why are people finding this point so hard to get?

I have an idea. How about secularists respect religion if religious people agree to respect them?

Suicide bombing in Christianity gives you hell, Suicide bombing in Islam gives you 72 virgins. There's the big picture of both religions. Islam is the farthest thing from being peaceful. It's sexist,racist, and homophobic. However I feel humanity should have dropped all Religions a long time ago when SCIENCE came around.

At 3/21/09 03:11 AM, poxpower wrote:

And another thing: don't respect people for "having faith'. What the fuck is that? Do you respect people in general when they say "hey this is my opinion and no one will ever change it EVER!". No, you call them "psychos" or "maddox".

It's not like the other side of the spectrum is any better. Who wants to listen to someone who only questions their beliefs all the time? no one. That's because anyone who does that thinks that they have this constantly maturing mind and thought process. They believe that whatever idea they come up with next is the better one and they're frankly egomaniacs and huge dicks. They see what they don't like about an idea (say a religion) and ignore everything else about it. There is no perfect religion, and that includes atheism and agnosticism, that everyone can agree with. That's simply because the god answer states that there is an answer to everything, and agnoticism says that we'll never find one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the flaw in both of those lines of thinking.

Well to be honest overall, being a Christian I am very unfazed by how narrow minded Atheists are. And yes I do believe in Evolution and that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. In the Hebrew Bible it states seven ages not days, when it was translated into latin it was put as days. Now that's a big fuck up.

At 3/28/09 07:16 PM, Ericho wrote: I have an idea. How about secularists respect religion if religious people agree to respect them?

A total impossibility. While it is possible for religion and secular views to co-exist, there will never be 100 percent respect between both parties.

At 3/28/09 08:05 PM, Pugberto wrote: Well to be honest overall, being a Christian I am very unfazed by how narrow minded Atheists are.

You're right Atheists are narrow minded but Christians aren't....

....except Creationists, Evangelicals and the US. Whoops for you?

At least we don't have an issue coming to grasp with reality.

At 3/28/09 09:50 PM, Brick-top wrote: You're right Atheists are narrow minded but Christians aren't....

....except Creationists, Evangelicals and the US. Whoops for you?

At least we don't have an issue coming to grasp with reality.

I have come to grasp with reality and beyond it, unlike you. I'm not going to assume what is around me to be the only reality, there isn't only one dimension.

Atheism is the belief that we are no more than a chemical reaction that happened 4.6 billion years ago that by accident formed into DNA which then evolved into sentient life against the odds of the laws of maths. This is a concept that offers no answers of purpose; it shows life as worthless and well just pointless.

Christianity is the belief that an entity known as God created the universe in seven days, now of course this seems impossible but the matter of the fact is that the universe was created in "seven days" is a bad translation from the Hebrew Bible which was seven ages. So it's any period of given time, most likely the same as the time length in the science text books. Now this is covered it doesn't seem too distant in possibility that either God or two atoms created the universe. Seeing it took any time possible we are unaware of how God would have dealt with Evolution, well simply it's the process of him allowing a working system of life. He created the designs but given them the gifts to adapt and of course he added to these designs and created new ones. He in time created man in his image and gifted him the Earth and then rested.

All I'm trying to say is that in a big picture they are both very improbable when meeting the critical eye and are determined on faith. It's a matter of open minded and close minded. For you to hear God you must put your faith in God, if you don't accept him then he won't accept you. Without this you simply won't see the other reality.

At 3/28/09 10:28 PM, Pugberto wrote: I have come to grasp with reality and beyond it, unlike you. I'm not going to assume what is around me to be the only reality, there isn't only one dimension.

By believing it was all created by a supernatual entity that has never been documented?

Atheism is the belief that we are no more than a chemical reaction that happened 4.6 billion years ago that by accident formed into DNA which then evolved into sentient life against the odds of the laws of maths.

Show me in ANY definition which says exactly this. To save you the leg work, you wont find it. Atheism is a lack of belief or disbelief in God. It makes no claims about the creation of life.

How exactly is it against the odds of the laws of maths? Are you going to give me some obscure probability on it's impossibility? Before you attempt this, that would logical fallacy. That is something you can look up.

This is a concept that offers no answers of purpose; it shows life as worthless and well just pointless.

If that were the case then please show me a study claiming Atheists are more likely to commit suicide.

People's purpose and worth are diverse and subjective regardless of belief.

Christianity is the belief that an entity known as God created the universe in seven days, now of course this seems impossible but the matter of the fact is that the universe was created in "seven days" is a bad translation from the Hebrew Bible which was seven ages. So it's any period of given time, most likely the same as the time length in the science text books. Now this is covered it doesn't seem too distant in possibility that either God or two atoms created the universe. Seeing it took any time possible we are unaware of how God would have dealt with Evolution, well simply it's the process of him allowing a working system of life. He created the designs but given them the gifts to adapt and of course he added to these designs and created new ones. He in time created man in his image and gifted him the Earth and then rested.

If that were true, then you would have overwhelming evidence to show we were designed.

If you have it, then feel free to share. If you do not, then your claim is no more valid than those who think the earth is flat or the moon doesn't exist.

All I'm trying to say is that in a big picture they are both very improbable when meeting the critical eye and are determined on faith. It's a matter of open minded and close minded. For you to hear God you must put your faith in God, if you don't accept him then he won't accept you. Without this you simply won't see the other reality.

Bad word: Faith. Unproven trust or acceptance.

I do not offer faith because I demand evidence for it. If I am to accept God, then I need to KNOW he is there instead of offering faith.

Atheism doesn't entail that life is worthless because it is random. Being an atheist, I think that life is beautiful, and cherish it every day. I look at life and realize how precious it is and how amazing it is that all of this in this world was possible because of amino acids and an energy source. I see the beauty in the randomness that is the earth; and I really think that I as an atheist view life as more beautiful than anyone as a Christian. Your god made the earth; he created it, he has the ability to destroy. And you believe he will, and punish innocent people of other religions and cultures because they didn't adhere to your guidelines. If I believed that I wouldn't view life as as precious as it is now. All life deserves to be cherished, regardless of what God it believes in. That's what everyone needs to realize; they think atheists are cold hearted mathematical scientists when really most of us care and love life more than religious people could ever know.

Also Pugberto, take a look at the third link in my sig. Does that seem like the action of an Atheist?

I'm finding it very hard to not call you a hypocrite based on your statement about narrow-mindedness.

Atheism is merely a belief there is no god or savior. Please don't put all atheist as naturalist. Thank you.

At 3/28/09 11:51 PM, Masterzakk wrote: Atheism is merely a belief there is no god or savior. Please don't put all atheist as naturalist. Thank you.

Yes, but he was implying that atheists don't value life. I was explaining how we do. You may value life in a different way than me, but being an atheist doesn't mean you have to hate life because there is no higher power.

What it all comes down to is morality and socially acceptable behavior. They reason why Americans and many other people do not respect Islam as being a good religion to have faith in is because it goes against morality and socially acceptable behavior. In the Quran, the sacred book of Muslim faith, it is said that if you (a Muslim) are to meet an infidel (not Muslim) and you do not kill him, it is just as good as allowing another Muslim to die. Islam promotes racism, violence, murder, and denounces science, reason, and good moral standing.

On another point, America is very much a Theocracy. America was founded on Jewdeo-Christian ethics, by good honest God fearing men and has to this point been held up by God fearing men. Our laws and doctrines are all governed by the 10 commandments. All moral fiber of that is at the heart of socially acceptable behavior encircles the 2 greatest rules of Christianity: "Love God and Love thy Neighbor".

Also, people are fickle. Men can have faith in anything. To grant respect to a groups level of faith is just plain dumb. There are people who kill in the name of God, Allah, Satan, and some who kill in the name of peace, love, and hope. All of which are things you put faith into, something faith enough to move mountains, but no honest person puts faith in something in hopes of gaining respect.

At 3/29/09 03:13 AM, DrJackMehoff wrote: What it all comes down to is morality and socially acceptable behavior. They reason why Americans and many other people do not respect Islam as being a good religion to have faith in is because it goes against morality and socially acceptable behavior. In the Quran, the sacred book of Muslim faith, it is said that if you (a Muslim) are to meet an infidel (not Muslim) and you do not kill him, it is just as good as allowing another Muslim to die. Islam promotes racism, violence, murder, and denounces science, reason, and good moral standing.

On another point, America is very much a Theocracy. America was founded on Jewdeo-Christian ethics, by good honest God fearing men and has to this point been held up by God fearing men. Our laws and doctrines are all governed by the 10 commandments. All moral fiber of that is at the heart of socially acceptable behavior encircles the 2 greatest rules of Christianity: "Love God and Love thy Neighbor".

Also, people are fickle. Men can have faith in anything. To grant respect to a groups level of faith is just plain dumb. There are people who kill in the name of God, Allah, Satan, and some who kill in the name of peace, love, and hope. All of which are things you put faith into, something faith enough to move mountains, but no honest person puts faith in something in hopes of gaining respect.

The part about America being founded on Jeudeo-Christian ethics is wrong, friend. Most of America's founding fathers were deists, and some of them Atheists. Most, if not all of them were not devoutly religious in any way. America was founded to be a haven for people discriminated against, no matter what religion you were. It was only later after these original people were dead that America adopted it's pro-Christian stance on everything.

No, sir, you are incorrect. America was founded by pilgrims. Pilgrims were all devote Christians who left England for America, so they could practice their own little sects of faith, like the Mormons and Quakers. Don't try to #$(% with me on history, I now history. So next time you try to step up, at least have actual facts. IN GOD WE TRUST! ONE NATION, UNDER GOD!

AND ANOTHER THING! 9 of the Declaration of Independence signers were MASONS, and if you know anything about Masons you know that it is necessary that you have faith in a single, almighty God.

At 3/29/09 03:42 AM, DrJackMehoff wrote: No, sir, you are incorrect. America was founded by pilgrims. Pilgrims were all devote Christians who left England for America, so they could practice their own little sects of faith, like the Mormons and Quakers. Don't try to #$(% with me on history, I now history. So next time you try to step up, at least have actual facts. IN GOD WE TRUST! ONE NATION, UNDER GOD!

AND ANOTHER THING! 9 of the Declaration of Independence signers were MASONS, and if you know anything about Masons you know that it is necessary that you have faith in a single, almighty God.

They were Free-Masons, but they were not devoutly so. Also, 'Under God' was added in 1954.

Now, don't YOU try and #$(% with me on history. I KNOW history. You are just an imbecile.

Oh no, you are the imbecile. Free-masons is Masons retard. You have never been to a Masonic Lodge, you have never met any Masons or know any Masons and I do. I have the information and you don't.
And it doesn't matter when the damn words were added be cause everyone in America at the time of the Revolution of Christian, Jewish, or Catholic. There were some Muslim slaves but thats about it. Talk to a damn historian sometime cause you don't know @#$% about the founding of America. Christian churches were some of the first buildings built in American and are the oldest surviving ones. Why do you think the police have to respect the confidentiality of confessesion? Why do you think abortion and gay marriage still isn't legal everywhere? WHY DO YOU THINK POLITICIANS ARE ALLOWED TO BAD MOUTH ISLAM?

Because American was, has been, and to some degree still is deeply engrained with Jewdeo-Christian ethics.

At 3/29/09 03:59 AM, DrJackMehoff wrote: Oh no, you are the imbecile. Free-masons is Masons retard. You have never been to a Masonic Lodge, you have never met any Masons or know any Masons and I do. I have the information and you don't.
And it doesn't matter when the damn words were added be cause everyone in America at the time of the Revolution of Christian, Jewish, or Catholic. There were some Muslim slaves but thats about it. Talk to a damn historian sometime cause you don't know @#$% about the founding of America. Christian churches were some of the first buildings built in American and are the oldest surviving ones. Why do you think the police have to respect the confidentiality of confessesion? Why do you think abortion and gay marriage still isn't legal everywhere? WHY DO YOU THINK POLITICIANS ARE ALLOWED TO BAD MOUTH ISLAM?

Because American was, has been, and to some degree still is deeply engrained with Jewdeo-Christian ethics.

Your words reek of religious bias. You're right, nearly everyone was Christian. Free-Masons now are different than Free-Masons of the time near the Revolution. You really, REALLY don't know what the revolution was about, do you? Well, let me tell you.

The revolution was what it was because the founding fathers wanted to create a country unlike the countries of Europe. They wanted to create a true secular state, something that did not exist in Europe. They wanted to create a land free of Kings, and free of religious bias on politics. They wanted FREEDOM. And they got it, and then later when people started taking things to seriously we became what we are today; heavily shaped by Christian ethics and yet too politically correct to admit it.

And politicians are not allowed to bad mouth Islam. They are allowed to bad mouth terrorists. Not all Islamic people are terrorists, and not all terrorists are Islamic. Abortion and Gay Marriage are not legal everywhere because states can govern themselves and choose whether or not they want to have those things in their states.

The founding fathers wanted to create a union in which best met there needs and nothing more. The needs however where in fact fuel by a Christian agenda, all men created equal, not simple born equal. You don't use words like created without a creationistic point of view. The founding fathers wanted to create a nation fueled by capitalism and not one of a monarchy, which is all that existed at the time.

All the principles of America stem from "Love God and Love thy Neighbor". Simple fact. If you can point to one aspect of America's structure and that doesn't support either or both, then you simply aren't looking at it from the right angle.

And to end the matter, just because you don't know the truth or the facts, doesn't mean I should have to explain everything to you. I'm sorry you are an ignorance blind retard, but I'm no Special-Ed teacher so I don't have training to teach you in retard terms how and why America was founded in a way you would understand.

At 3/29/09 04:42 AM, DrJackMehoff wrote: The founding fathers wanted to create a union in which best met there needs and nothing more. The needs however where in fact fuel by a Christian agenda, all men created equal, not simple born equal. You don't use words like created without a creationistic point of view. The founding fathers wanted to create a nation fueled by capitalism and not one of a monarchy, which is all that existed at the time.

All the principles of America stem from "Love God and Love thy Neighbor". Simple fact. If you can point to one aspect of America's structure and that doesn't support either or both, then you simply aren't looking at it from the right angle.

And to end the matter, just because you don't know the truth or the facts, doesn't mean I should have to explain everything to you. I'm sorry you are an ignorance blind retard, but I'm no Special-Ed teacher so I don't have training to teach you in retard terms how and why America was founded in a way you would understand.

There are a variety of cultures and religions that have that same ideal. It is not just Christianity. You fail to realize that there IS a world outside Christianity, a world filled with ethics and morals. You don't have to be Christian to want a better life for your fellow humans. They didn't create the nation to fuel their needs, they created it to fuel the needs of the people that inhabited it. Yes, our nation today is shaped by christian ideals, and morals similar to the ones promoted in Christianity were in place when we founded ourselves. But we have been and will always be a nation of the people, for the people, regardless of what those people believe. That is what the founding fathers wanted, and that is what will continue to be no matter how much you wish America was a theocracy.

Your ignorance blinds me more than your archaic name. Seriously, that's not funny anymore. It's old news.

Wow. The Crusades, anyone? Read a book.

At 3/28/09 07:28 PM, Punxx wrote: Suicide bombing in Christianity gives you hell, Suicide bombing in Islam gives you 72 virgins. There's the big picture of both religions. Islam is the farthest thing from being peaceful. It's sexist,racist, and homophobic. However I feel humanity should have dropped all Religions a long time ago when SCIENCE came around.

im absolutely agreed with you. why should we respect people that belive in something that proved as wrong? theyre runing their lives and lives.

At 3/28/09 10:45 PM, Brick-top wrote: By believing it was all created by a supernatual entity that has never been documented?

Yes exactly that, he has been documented in the Bible but remember that was the earliest form of documentation. We didn't have people studying the Earth that time ago. Many people most likely wrote of him but paper doesn't last forever.

Show me in ANY definition which says exactly this. To save you the leg work, you wont find it. Atheism is a lack of belief or disbelief in God. It makes no claims about the creation of life.

It is the general belief that Atheists have on the creation of the universe. It was comparison of those beliefs compared to the beliefs of Christianity.

How exactly is it against the odds of the laws of maths? Are you going to give me some obscure probability on it's impossibility? Before you attempt this, that would logical fallacy. That is something you can look up.

Think to yourself the odds of you existing from the creation of the universe to this point in time. You'd realise how improbable it is. Say it's a one in a billion chance that we were here, then we are that one but the likely hood of that one is extremely low.

The point I was making is that if view both in a nutshell their improbable and both without hard evidence. Neither of us are greater than the other.

If that were the case then please show me a study claiming Atheists are more likely to commit suicide.

Ok here

People's purpose and worth are diverse and subjective regardless of belief.

Yes that is correct.

If that were true, then you would have overwhelming evidence to show we were designed.

If you have it, then feel free to share. If you do not, then your claim is no more valid than those who think the earth is flat or the moon doesn't exist.

Find an animal on this planet that is able to think, talk and feel emotions like us. There are none. Evolution doesn't seek intelligence, it seeks survival so why would we evolve a brain if monkeys are surviving just fine in the wild?

Now let's look at DNA. All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell.

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Bad word: Faith. Unproven trust or acceptance.

I do not offer faith because I demand evidence for it. If I am to accept God, then I need to KNOW he is there instead of offering faith.

If you offer faith then you will know.

At 3/28/09 06:12 AM, Pugberto wrote: Islam is very much a violent religion where as Christianity is a religion of peace and love. Sure Islam has peace and love but for a religion that says "Kill those who try to leave" or "Kill all non-Muslim's" is not a peaceful religion.

Christianity is the most hipocritical religion out there, Catholicism in particular. Besides, if you read the Quran, it says a fateful Muslim should defend their religion, it doesn't exactly condone some of the bullshit a very small minority choose to do. I fyou would actually care to read the Quran, go
here.

At 3/29/09 11:33 AM, Pugberto wrote:

At 3/28/09 10:45 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Yes exactly that, he has been documented in the Bible but remember that was the earliest form of documentation. We didn't have people studying the Earth that time ago. Many people most likely wrote of him but paper doesn't last forever.

The Bible is a religious work, not meant to be taken literally on many counts, and was written when men had neither the technology nor understanding of the world to analyze it's creation from a scientific point of view. So back when it was written, one could only take a religious stance to the origin of life...or dare I say, the Origin of Species?

It is the general belief that Atheists have on the creation of the universe. It was comparison of those beliefs compared to the beliefs of Christianity.

Generally, atheists view creation as not coming from a being that was not created by anything, and existed before everything else, and it varies from there on out. Normally gravitating towards well established scientific theories as to the origin of life, and ultimately matter itself.

Think to yourself the odds of you existing from the creation of the universe to this point in time. You'd realise how improbable it is. Say it's a one in a billion chance that we were here, then we are that one but the likely hood of that one is extremely low.

The odds of life being created through a natural process is still better than some incomprehensible being getting bored and making all this 6,000 years ago

Ok here

Hmm, conservapedia, that's a great example of a reliable source.

Find an animal on this planet that is able to think, talk and feel emotions like us. There are none. Evolution doesn't seek intelligence, it seeks survival so why would we evolve a brain if monkeys are surviving just fine in the wild?

No species, on earth at least, is smarter than us. We've evolved an intelligence beyond other animals, which has allowed us to survive. Humans were the first to become as smart as we are, allowing us to build and create, there by having a huge edge over any other animal, and if we were to die out, another animal would take our place as the most dominant species in due time. In other words, we're the smartest, making us the most dominant. And since we're on top, of course there's no animal better suited than us. If there were, we wouldn't be on top now would we?

Now let's look at DNA. All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell.

Yes, life is highly complex. Made up of billions of cells, each cell incredibly complex in and of itself. But it didn't start out that complex. Over hundreds of millions of years, it has become increasingly more complex, it didn't just start out this way. Some of the first life forms were incredibly simple, unicellular organisms, having only the most basic of functions nesecary to maintain life.

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

A cell phone and a living cell are a wee bit different. A cell phone you can program, or wipe the memory. A living cell however, we can't just crack open, wipe the memory, reprogram, and put the screws back in.

One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

As I said, this started out very, very basic. Over hundreds of millions of years, it's evolved into it's present state of complexity.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

I think I kinda shot that theory of not being able to explain it's complexity right out of the air.

Bad word: Faith. Unproven trust or acceptance.

I do not offer faith because I demand evidence for it. If I am to accept God, then I need to KNOW he is there instead of offering faith.

If you offer faith then you will know.

You know, we're arguing two completely different pov here. Me and brick-top are arguing a scientific pov, which requires hard evidence. While you are arguing a religious point of view, which doesn't require evidence of any kind, just an acceptance of what you're told is truth. I don't see either side conceding anything.

Yes I think we should end the argument because we're not going to stop seeing fault. We'll leave it at the fact that your Atheist and I'm Christian. We shouldn't be arguing amongst ourselves when there is worse things in the world.

I am bound to bring up Epicurus in this debate with his famous saying...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If I was going to believe in a higher power, I would be forced to come to the conclusion that he was either evil or dead. I know about free-will and everything, but if my children were going around killing each other for no good reason I would step in and put them in time out.