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At 4/13/09 02:43 PM, aninjaman wrote:

At 4/13/09 02:29 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: Well its like we are little children n god is the mom/dad.

So god is like a parent that punishes you? Only his punishments tend to be out of porportion to the crime (eating apple from tree=eternal sin). Also god wants us to be perfect and live up to his unattainble standards.
All in all god is a bit like an emotionally distant overly strict parent.

Lol Ytaker, I forgot about that part, thanks for reminding us 8)

Anyway ninja, have you ever noticed the escalation of crime and punishments?
Lets say you lie to your mom, you'll get sent to your room, tell a lie to your teacher, you'll get detention, tell a lie to the principle, you'll get expelled, tell a lie to a judge, you'll go to jail.

The higher the authority, the greater the punishment will be for doing wrong, God's standards are perfect and failure to meet them will mean the ultimate punishment which we have already been given, spiritual death.
As I said Jesus died for your sins so we could be forgiven n you know the rest....

So it doesn't matter how big or small a sin is, it is still a sin, ofcourse swearing may seem like a tiny thing next to murdering somone, to God theyre the same n deserve the same punishment, the only sin said to be unforgivable is suicide which is something you really can't be sorry for.

Brick, you should just leave, people don't have time to go through every stupid thing you have to say n destroy it, no matter how funny it would be to see you squirm.

Peace n God bless 8)

I just want to throw this earlier post out here, made by Shaggy some time ago. I just thought that since the debate currently going on in this thread doesn't look like it'll go anywhere, maybe we could take up points from this post. The points in this posts are a lot more basic and are therefor harder for him to squirm out of.

At 3/10/09 05:29 AM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote:

At 3/10/09 12:56 AM, GrammerNaziElite wrote:

At 3/10/09 12:23 AM, JackPhantasm wrote:

At 3/9/09 10:11 PM, GrammerNaziElite wrote:
Evolution, and atheism with it, stands.

Of course atheism is just as possible if not more possible than a mass of sentient matter.

That's obvious.

I don't like the idea that people look at a mathematical probability and take the low bar, off of fate.

Science supports evolution, and does not support God. The Church supports God but not atheism. About half of the people in America do not believe in evolution and most believe in a God.

Doesn't, does, science has nothing to do with evolution, we've covered this before, evolution is a wad of fake evidence n twisted science rolled up together n thrown at people to push the religion onto them, yes evolution is a religion since they have every aspect a religion has. And you don't know if science proves God, and you admit your ignorance of that in saying the exact oposite that we all know better than to believe.

Science reeks of credibility, the Church does not.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I think it's safe to say that a 20/80% chance that there is a God is extremely generous on their behalf. That means almost every person in America would bet that their randomly thrown dart will land on a section covering 1/5 of a dart board.

Actually it is a 100% chance there is a God, only shit is that people have different God's n stuff, there a 0% chance of you getting off scot free with a simple end to your existence, why? Because we're here to begin with, which means we weren't put here for nothing, and random chance has been brought up and destroyed repeatedly.

That's using generous numbers.

See you in Hell.

Shaggy, what gives god the authority to give extreme punishments for small sins?

At 4/13/09 08:59 PM, TheRadicalOne wrote:

At 4/13/09 08:55 PM, aninjaman wrote: Shaggy, what gives god the authority to give extreme punishments for small sins?

Because he's God, of course.

I knew it.

At 4/13/09 08:36 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: That's not an argument that's a fact. Dishonesty is NEVER good. It does harm. Basic philosophy.

I am not interested in arguing with basic facts that I agree with.

You're of the opinion there dishonesty is all the same. I am not. That's a disagreement that you dropped to poke at my poor wording and make a point that's actually irrelevant to mine.

The asides are all I'm concerned with. You would not have the fact without the aside for perspective.

Yeah... and it's a fucking slight of hand to have an aside without the fact when the fact is unresolved!

Did I? I thought you quoted me first.

You asked for a comparison. I gave you two concerning situations where a religious person would have to believe in God. I gave you these because these were the people POX was talking about in the post you replied to, asking for a comparison - which I gave you.

Then you reply with all this junk about hell being imaginary - well - to some people. BUT I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM - POX WASN'T EITHER.

Just because the thread is about "religion" doesn't mean every digression or tangent is just as broad - and it doesn't mean you're on the topic of a particular tangent just because the thread is that broad.

I thought I already asked you what it is about this. I guess I don't know the argument.

What about these religious people that believe in god, in what way is the dishonesty different?

At 4/14/09 01:52 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: I thought I already asked you what it is about this. I guess I don't know the argument.

What about these religious people that believe in god, in what way is the dishonesty different?

It is 'unquestionable' and the punishment/reward itself is far more severe.

A person watching a commercial is much more likely to rationalize why they don't need to live by the words of the spokesperson, and potential punishment/reward is generally far less (can be acceptably outweighed by other imperatives).

That was the point of my mixing consumerism (buying a car) with a hell-based punishment system.

Of course... any punishment can be manipulated to any severity. My concern is with the severity more or less inherent from the get-go.

And yes. So that's why I linked to that guy. Just as a car salesmen of yesterday will be probably more dishonest than one of today.

Past to future. Similar curve I thought.

Where am I wrong?

Shaggy, do you think hell is eternal?

because parents etc punish children so they learn and won't do it again.

If hell is eternal, then people aren't going to learn and aren't given a chance of redemption, and so your analogy fails.

At 4/14/09 02:19 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: And yes. So that's why I linked to that guy. Just as a car salesmen of yesterday will be probably more dishonest than one of today.

Past to future. Similar curve I thought.

Where am I wrong?

The past is still the present in this case. The old car salesmen of yesterday are still alive and well despite Spong's idealism. And I don't take so much issue with Spong.

[ Sorry. I misunderstood the link the first time around. ]

At 4/13/09 02:10 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: That by our own design, if we are unworthy= sinner=/thief/rapist/murderer/ect/ect/ec t

;;;;;
Sorry to pick on oyou here Shaggy, but my mom says (L O L ) that , if we sincerely ask god's forgiveness for our sins he will forgive them & we're home free ! YYAYYYYAAAAYYYYYY !
So I can be the biggest drucken lecherous, woman beating , fornicating murderous scumbag I want to be...& as long as I reepent near the end...& I'm sincerely sorry (like com'on I'm tryin ta keep ma ass outta Hellfire...I can be sincere dude) I'll be forgiven & go to Heaven.
Catlick religious dogma says that & so does my poor little Mom's United Church !
So I can continue being all I can be dude & its going to turn out fine in the end L M F A O ! ! !

OBVIOUSLY! We wont be able to be with god then will we now, Since God is perfect n he wont settle for anything but.

So now ,NO ONE IS GETTING INTO HEAVEN ! ! ! because none of us, not even the Pope himself is perfect !
So seeing as no human is perfect, no human is going to get into Heaven, & I can still continue , drinking, partying, fornicating & if it happens I murder,rape & do a little pillaging....I don't have to bother repenting (lol) because none of us are getting in anyway !

Which is fine by me....(quote from my account page) . . ." I rather burn in Hell than serve in Heaven ! "

SEE YOU THERE ;)

At 4/15/09 08:06 AM, morefngdbs wrote: So now ,NO ONE IS GETTING INTO HEAVEN ! ! ! because none of us, not even the Pope himself is perfect !
So seeing as no human is perfect, no human is going to get into Heaven, & I can still continue , drinking, partying, fornicating & if it happens I murder,rape & do a little pillaging....I don't have to bother repenting (lol) because none of us are getting in anyway !

This I agree with. If as Shaggy says you must be perfect to enter heaven, and no one is perfect, as morefngdbs says, which can very easily be proved, for example the current pope was a Nazi when he was younger, and clearly not perfect, so cannot enter heaven, and if the pope cannot go to heaven, then no one can.

also, benedict looks like emperor palpatine, post electrified.

Aight just got back n I'm ready to answer some qustions 8D

At 4/14/09 06:45 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Shaggy, do you think hell is eternal?

Well I sure as Hell hope not....lol But if it is then....8(

because parents etc punish children so they learn and won't do it again.

If hell is eternal, then people aren't going to learn and aren't given a chance of redemption, and so your analogy fails.

Well, thats probably why we live here today, to learn all these things, and don't say we aren't given a chance, I've heard it was the angels that weren't given much of a chance, if they disobeyd they were kicked right out along with satan....but that just what I've heard. I'll get into that more on this never quote.

At 4/15/09 08:25 AM, pyromaniac616 wrote:

At 4/15/09 08:06 AM, morefngdbs wrote: So now ,NO ONE IS GETTING INTO HEAVEN ! ! ! because none of us, not even the Pope himself is perfect !
So seeing as no human is perfect, no human is going to get into Heaven, & I can still continue , drinking, partying, fornicating & if it happens I murder,rape & do a little pillaging....I don't have to bother repenting (lol) because none of us are getting in anyway !

Well if you believe that Jesus was the son of God n that he died for your sins, asking for forgivness may as well work, depends if you're actually sorry n I wont assume you aren't.
But other than that, I don't know if theres any other beliefs that speak of forgivness, hell I remember the puritans believed no matter what they did some chosen group would go to heaven n all the rest would go to Hell.....very disturbing how they treated other people, and more disturbing how they didn't believe in any accountability for those actions.

This I agree with. If as Shaggy says you must be perfect to enter heaven, and no one is perfect, as morefngdbs says, which can very easily be proved, for example the current pope was a Nazi when he was younger, and clearly not perfect, so cannot enter heaven, and if the pope cannot go to heaven, then no one can.

also, benedict looks like emperor palpatine, post electrified.

I myself don't even know wtf the pope is supposed to do or why there is one lol

As I said there is a bit of hope if you in fact believe you are accountable for your actions by your creator, apologize for what you've done wrong, I myself don't think you really have to remember everything seeing as we humans suck at remembering things somtimes.
So that pretty much all I'm saying, ask for forgivness, just ask.....

At 4/17/09 10:53 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote:

At 4/14/09 06:45 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Shaggy, do you think hell is eternal?

Well I sure as Hell hope not....lol But if it is then....8(

But isn't it?

At 4/17/09 10:53 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote:

no human is going to get into Heaven, & I can still continue , drinking, partying, fornicating & if it happens I murder,rape & do a little pillaging....I don't have to bother repenting

Well if you believe that Jesus was the son of God n that he died for your sins, asking for forgivness may as well work, depends if you're actually sorry n I wont assume you aren't.

;;;;
Shaggy I definately DO NOT BELIEVE jesus was the son of God.
Not even a little tiny iota of my being believes that. I actually believe that anyone who thinks that way is 1) mentally challenged. 2) deluded 3) Has been brainwashed & or is an easily led personality .

So that pretty much all I'm saying, ask for forgivness, just ask.....

;;;;
I will be asking about the availability of having a couple of drinks , whether the beer is cold, & where' the best spot to meet a lovely lady for a evening of mutual sexual gratification. If I am denied enterance or told that type of behaviour isn't tolerated I'm goin gto go get on the express down elevator & go to a place where those kinds of girls will now obviously be hanging out. (Hopefully the beers cold down there)
Because I am from Cape Breton , I have no worries of being put to work in the furnaces of Hell. You see the last time they tried that with a bunch of Cape Bretoners...it was in less than a week that 12 furnaces were shut down & there was talk of a Strike ! ! ! the Devil won't make that mistake twice .

Why aren't we ignoring shaggy? He's obviously a troll, a spammer, a hypocrite and internally inconsistent. He has never had a respectable debate with anyone, about anything. Because he spirals out of control till everyone gets frustrated and leaves. When they do successfully argue against him he either ignores it or uses ample amounts of insults and then continues using those arguments.

He's your typical, under educated, closed minded, half-assed creationist. And his name is Kyle.

Shaggy is arguing from the perspective of a believer.

Oh and he's said several times I believe that he's not a creationist, or even very religious if memory serves me correctly.

You guys are the trolls, responding only with, "WHAT? That's incorrect! Show me evidence! You're lying! Your belief is useless!"

I've never really seen any of you do much more than flame him.

At 4/18/09 10:47 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: Shaggy is arguing from the perspective of a believer.

No, Shaggy is arguing from the perspective of a psychopath.

Oh and he's said several times I believe that he's not a creationist, or even very religious if memory serves me correctly.

His youtube channel is subscribed to many creationists and he uses their arguments. Also he admits he's a Christian. Want a link?

You guys are the trolls, responding only with, "WHAT? That's incorrect! Show me evidence! You're lying! Your belief is useless!"

I've never really seen any of you do much more than flame him.

Confirmation bias and observational selection fallacies.

Read his posts, look at his blog posts, he obviously has an agenda and despises atheists. He has more profile posts about Atheism than I do.

At 4/12/09 06:02 PM, Brick-top wrote:
" Every man is an atheist who does not believe that there is a God, although his want of belief may not be rested on any allegation of positive knowledge that there is no God, but simply on one of want of knowledge that there is a God."

thats atheist, not agnostic, use your brain

from the first book which uses the term agnostic

At 4/18/09 10:47 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: Oh and he's said several times I believe that he's not a creationist,

Are you shitting me?

The majoirty of posts are concerned with why he believes evolution is a load of crap.

You guys are the trolls, responding only with, "WHAT? That's incorrect! Show me evidence! You're lying! Your belief is useless!"

"Show me the evidence" is not trolling. trolling is posting in order to get an angry response. We want a legitimate response.

I've never really seen any of you do much more than flame him.

Again, you have to be shitting me.

tieem and time again I go through his posts, break trhem down and analyse/rebutt them bit by bit in an extended, well thought out response.
And he ignores it all and says the same old bullshit like "oh yeah then how come we neveer see monkeys give birth to humans hmm?"

At 4/18/09 07:54 PM, afuckingname wrote: thats atheist, not agnostic, use your brain

Atheism & Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Use your brain.

At 4/18/09 07:54 PM, afuckingname wrote: thats atheist, not agnostic, use your brain

from the first book which uses the term agnostic

1. This still does not invalidate it's age.

2. You omit my previous definition and kept this one.

3. My definition originated FROM THE DICTIONARY.

4. Your definition came from an early 20th century Author

At 4/18/09 08:00 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:
Atheism & Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Use your brain.

lets wait for your little buddy to argue against that, and im glad hes always around for a quick reply, cough cough lozer

it was man who came up with the term agnostic that said that christians can be agnostic

At 4/18/09 08:30 PM, afuckingname wrote: it was man who came up with the term agnostic that said that christians can be agnostic

Who, when and a direct quote.

But what I can tell you is the similarities are combined by name only, he used the term to explain his OWN theological beliefs.

I have zero respect to the assholes who constantly are in my face with their world-view. There are two things that a conversation over this always preclude: They're right, I'm wrong. The two most fucking pointless ways to start a "conversation" in the known world. Let's be honest, anyone who even wants to "discuss" this shit isn't in it for anything other than a lecture.

Being told why I should or should not do by some smug cunt who has never met me? I'm one of those weird people who believe most, if not all things in human life, are relative. Our health, our views, our perspectives. No two eyewitnesses ever agree, and here I am being lectured about why I'm wrong, and how some other asshole's gonna help me by giving the "right" answer?

Piss off, I don't have the time sir. I don't have the time to explain to you how presuming you know the answer to a 1.) Irrelevant question and 2.) A person you have no information on will somehow "save" me......

You wanna save me? Lecture me on the dangers of credit card debt, not this bullshit stance on the supernatural.

At 4/18/09 09:00 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Brick, here is a simple question.

Do you have a personal quarrel with people who have dissimilar beliefs than you?

Like I said so in my newspost, religion has a really great choral traditions all over the world. I can respect religion for the artistic masterpieces they created. Not only in songs, but also in architecture and paintings and all the rest. It really inspired artists to give the best over time.

At least, religion is very inspirational...

At 4/20/09 05:37 AM, shaggytheclawn17 wrote: Because if you do brick, you're ridiculous and stupid. And people like you are destroying the world.

I however, have no personal quarrel with anyone who thinks differently than I do. I'm just here to show atheists that they do.

Atheists are retarded
Posted by Shaggytheclown17
Feb. 28, 2009 @ 1:31 AM EST
Just thought I'd let everyone know that, its a fact n there nothing anyone can do about it.
Atheists are filthy and dangerous n they should all be put on an island and left to do what they've always wanted, see who is the fittest in whatever psycotic world they live in.

Now let us rejoice in the fact they will never have power and will never take away the God or Gods we love, amen.

At 4/20/09 09:05 AM, RubberTrucky wrote: Like I said so in my newspost, religion has a really great choral traditions all over the world. I can respect religion for the artistic masterpieces they created.

Man I'm so sick of that point.
Especially because it usually comes while defending the catholic church... The pyramids are pretty fucking badass too, and so is the Parthenon.

Is this an argument to defend POLYTHEISM suddenly?

It just means that when people were entirely devoted to making some stupid tribute to their God, then advances in architecture, sculptures etc. etc. could be made. It's strictly a question of money.

From my perspective, religion has crippled art by making it stuck into the same loop of representing religious images. That's practically all you'd get for thousands of years. That and monuments to kings and nobles.

As soon as religion declines in Europe after they kicked the kings out, art EXPLODED in originality and did not diminish in quality. From 1850 and on, artists were free to explore any possibility they wanted instead of having to do shit for the church or the kings.

And the part about songs holds true too. They're not really materpieces either, it's a fucking song. Rammstein is a masterpiece.

Classical music is lame.

And as an artist, I can tell you that I don't see anything really inspired in anything religion. It's mainly big, because they had the money.
Do you find the Last supper inspired? It's just a bunch of dudes at a table based on a story. It's just an illustration.

How can one say it was "divinely inspired" work when the church was constantly making the orders according to certain specifications and based on holy texts? It just stunted creativity.

And another funny note is how some artists in the renaissance tried to learn anatomy by dissecting corpses, something the church didn't like very much. Not to mention that it's not the bible that came up with how to make canvas, paints and brushes or how to draw perspective.

Anyway just saying I always found that defense of religion to be horseshit. They were rich fucks and they did what rich fucks do: spend TONS of money on trivial bullshit like adorned cathedrals and mosques.

At 4/20/09 09:41 AM, poxpower wrote:
Man I'm so sick of that point.
Especially because it usually comes while defending the catholic church...

Just because it is religiously inspired you're gonna say that it's all worthless piece of garbage?
Meh, if you think it is...

But I know that when I walked into a church just yesterday, I was in awe of how beautiful it is. Of course, it is not like it proves me there is a God or anything. But it was just marvellous.

Art has evolved through the ages under religion. I wouldn't call it holding back. Besides, you're ignoring several non-religious forms of art before the 19th century. Religion and prestige was rather dominant, but not the only factor.

I don't claim that only religion can make good art, but religion has (in my opinion) created some of the greatest art in history, even nowadays.