Israel vs. Palestine

[Talio17]

Really, what's all the fighting about? It's senseless. Palestinians: The Jews took us from our homeland!
Israelites: The Palestinians bombed us!

I'm actually siding with Israel. What, you Palestinians are so cold hearted that you can't give up some of your land so that innocent Jews can escape the wrath of a german dictator bent on world domination? And the Israelites are stupid for retaliating. And now that we've opened the box, the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot. It still doesn't matter what side I'm on, it would be better if the fighting stopped altogether!

[Jon-86]

End of the day all war is sensless and so are the things that provoke it!

[Talio17]

At 3/16/09 04:28 PM, Jon-86 wrote: End of the day all war is sensless and so are the things that provoke it!

precisely

[Sheizenhammer]

At 3/16/09 04:19 PM, Talio17 wrote: Really, what's all the fighting about? It's senseless. Palestinians: The Jews took us from our homeland!
Israelites: The Palestinians bombed us!

I'm sure you could find the answer to that after a few minutes on Google. It's not like it's a little-known fact that the two have been at each other's throats for decades.

I'm actually siding with Israel. What, you Palestinians are so cold hearted that you can't give up some of your land so that innocent Jews can escape the wrath of a german dictator bent on world domination?

Quite a lot of people appear to disagree with that.

I'm gonna leave it at that (before my complete lack of knowledge about it becomes painfully obvious), but I'm sure the answers are already either here, or somewhere else that's easily accessible.

[Talio17]

Quite a lot of people appear to disagree with that.

yes, well, I'll bet they weren't thinking about the Hitler conflict when they wrote those threads.

[puddinN64]

Well, Israel has the U.S.A. backing it, so I think it's doing okay, no matter what Palestine does.

But the question is: Could their conflict lead to the next World War or Religious crusade?

[Ericho]

At 3/16/09 05:39 PM, puddinN64 wrote: Well, Israel has the U.S.A. backing it, so I think it's doing okay, no matter what Palestine does.

But the question is: Could their conflict lead to the next World War or Religious crusade?

I hope neither!

[MisterRPG]

At 3/16/09 04:19 PM, Talio17 wrote: Really, what's all the fighting about? It's senseless. Palestinians: The Jews took us from our homeland!
Israelites: The Palestinians bombed us!

I'm actually siding with Israel. What, you Palestinians are so cold hearted that you can't give up some of your land so that innocent Jews can escape the wrath of a german dictator bent on world domination? And the Israelites are stupid for retaliating. And now that we've opened the box, the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot. It still doesn't matter what side I'm on, it would be better if the fighting stopped altogether!

... what? There are Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israel wasn't GIVEN away to the Holocaust Jews, it was taken in a declaration of independence by the Palestinian Jews, which was rubber-stamped by the UN.

1. As for that cold-hearted stuff, wtf. Are YOU so cold-hearted you can't give up territory in YOUR homeland rather than demanding Palestinians do it?
2. Hitler is dead. They aren't running from anything. And if they are.... see point #1. Why not give them territory somewhere where they won't be targetted for death by living on it? Even IF you could claim to be giving it away?
3. My religion promises me full ownership of the USA and everyone in it. Respect it.
4. Retaliating isn't stupid; only an idiot would sit there and allow themselves to be extinguished
5. The cylce of violence, on the other hand.... yeah.

[Talio17]

At 3/17/09 01:36 PM, MisterRPG wrote:

At 3/16/09 04:19 PM, Talio17 wrote: Really, what's all the fighting about? It's senseless. Palestinians: The Jews took us from our homeland!
Israelites: The Palestinians bombed us!

I'm actually siding with Israel. What, you Palestinians are so cold hearted that you can't give up some of your land so that innocent Jews can escape the wrath of a german dictator bent on world domination? And the Israelites are stupid for retaliating. And now that we've opened the box, the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot. It still doesn't matter what side I'm on, it would be better if the fighting stopped altogether!

... what? There are Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israel wasn't GIVEN away to the Holocaust Jews, it was taken in a declaration of independence by the Palestinian Jews, which was rubber-stamped by the UN.

1. As for that cold-hearted stuff, wtf. Are YOU so cold-hearted you can't give up territory in YOUR homeland rather than demanding Palestinians do it?
2. Hitler is dead. They aren't running from anything. And if they are.... see point #1. Why not give them territory somewhere where they won't be targetted for death by living on it? Even IF you could claim to be giving it away?
3. My religion promises me full ownership of the USA and everyone in it. Respect it.
4. Retaliating isn't stupid; only an idiot would sit there and allow themselves to be extinguished
5. The cylce of violence, on the other hand.... yeah.

1. There's no changing it now! There was a huge refugee problem!
2. When Israel was created, Hitler WAS alive.
3. Religion stands for their CIVILIZATION. It doesn't say one man owns Israel, it gives the Jews permission to live on it.
4. Yeah, well, they never even TRIED peace talks.
5. Allow me to respon in the following manner: BLARGH! *see thread titled, "What's your favorite word?"

[MisterRPG]

1. What do you mean there's no changing it now? Kick all the Americans out of Colorado, relocate all the every non-native Jewish Israeli to Colorado. There was no "refugee problem" at that point in time - the reason they came to Israel is because they were invited by Palestinian Jews, who wanted to create a Jewish Homeland.
2. And while we're on the subject of Hitler, I would like to point out that Hitler died in 1944, and Israel was not founded until 1947/1948. What that means? There were no refugess "on the run." And really, if they were? How gutless is it to demand that someone else take care of them, and give up their land?
3. ... Jews already lived in pre-Israel Palestine. They didn't need permission; they were already there.
4. Wtf? Read Israeli/Palestinian. The region is one series of failed peace talks after another.
5. Blargh? Agreed.

[cHunter]

At 3/16/09 04:19 PM, Talio17 wrote: And the Israelites are stupid for retaliating.

You're an idiot. They got bombed. Why the fuck wouldn't they do something?

[bcdemon]

At 3/16/09 04:19 PM, Talio17 wrote: Really, what's all the fighting about? It's senseless. Palestinians: The Jews took us from our homeland!
Israelites: The Palestinians bombed us!

I'm actually siding with Israel. What, you Palestinians are so cold hearted that you can't give up some of your land so that innocent Jews can escape the wrath of a german dictator bent on world domination?

Apparently the Palestinians were no different than anyone else was back in 1947, if you recall, nobody wanted the Jews. Poland and Russia had the largest Jewish community, and the most land mass, why send them to the Middle East, a place where EVERYONE voted against an Israeli state?

the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot.

ROFL, WHAT? If someone came to my front yard and declared that there religion gave them my land, I would shoot the crazy bastard and put him out of his misery. I would definitely not respect him.
My religion says I can have your land, can I have it?

[Doonie]

At 3/19/09 09:33 AM, bcdemon wrote: Apparently the Palestinians were no different than anyone else was back in 1947, if you recall, nobody wanted the Jews. Poland and Russia had the largest Jewish community, and the most land mass, why send them to the Middle East, a place where EVERYONE voted against an Israeli state?

You are either a pathological liar, a person with very short memory. I'm sure you know why.
No, don't deny, i'm sure you do why, Ahmed. (Guessed right?)

the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot.

ROFL, WHAT? If someone came to my front yard and declared that there religion gave them my land, I would shoot the crazy bastard and put him out of his misery. I would definitely not respect him.
My religion says I can have your land, can I have it?

Again you are showing the lack of historical morals and scientific ethics of the Muslims, that would twist history and lie to themselves, just to convince yourself you are actually right.
On reality, the Jews never claim that, because the Jewish immigrants that came to a nearly deserted land (quoting Mark Twain) since the last 1800's, were almost entirely secular and atheists on majority. The claims to the land were:
1. Historical and National.
2. The lands were legally bought
3. There was no country or a nation there.

Or should i quote the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member in the past, Zahir Muhsein:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

And honestly, this thread is full of ignorant people, including you.

[hansari]

At 3/19/09 10:22 AM, Doonie wrote: And honestly, this thread is full of ignorant people, including you.

It was started by a 14 year old who said he didn't completely understand what the fighting was about but immediately jumped to making a decision on who to side with... what do you expect :P

[MisterRPG]

Doonie, I have some questions for you:

1. Wth, exactly, are "historical morals"?
2. Since when does having ancestors that lived somewhere mean you have any right to the land?
3. What makes the claim to legally purchased land greater for Jews than Arabs?
4. Where's the morality in usurping the land being lived on from the current residents, be they Jewis or Arabian?
5. Why on earth would you credit a Jordanian pawn who admits to an Jordanian agenda with being a legitimate representative of the Palestinians? Even the Hamas scumbags have better claim to representation of Palestine than that tool. The quote itself gives lie to any pretense he might have to representing their interests.

[Doonie]

At 3/19/09 03:28 PM, MisterRPG wrote: Doonie, I have some questions for you:

1. Wth, exactly, are "historical morals"?

History representation morals would be more accurate. Their journalism and history teachings are far from truth and filled with made up propaganda and lies. That's why i'm not surprised the Palestinians are so full of hate because on reality they have no other choice, they are brainwashed. Just like the Germans were under Nazi rule.

2. Since when does having ancestors that lived somewhere mean you have any right to the land?

Legally? never. but they explained why they immigrated.

3. What makes the claim to legally purchased land greater for Jews than Arabs?

Huh? The Arabs owned lands and Jews owned lands, none of claim for the others. Despite what Arab propaganda tries to claim, the lands were legally bought until 1948.

4. Where's the morality in usurping the land being lived on from the current residents, be they Jewis or Arabian?

It wasn't in the beginning of the immigration (1870's-90's) the land was almost entirely uninhabited. The population estimated to be around 80,000-150,000 in 1893, and that's after the contra-immigration of Arabs into soon-to-be Israel. So on reality, most of the Palestinians actually came after the Jews. (Where did the 10 million Palestinians came from? Immigration.)

5. Why on earth would you credit a Jordanian pawn who admits to an Jordanian agenda with being a legitimate representative of the Palestinians? Even the Hamas scumbags have better claim to representation of Palestine than that tool. The quote itself gives lie to any pretense he might have to representing their interests.

Maybe because he was a top member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and head of the military wing.

[MisterRPG]

1. Thanks for clearing that up. As for the Palestinian Arabs, of -course- they have no other choice. They are besieged on two fronts, and surrounded by millions of people who don't care whether they live or die. The Israelis consider them less than dogs, Hamas uses them as shields for its own ends, the jihadists consider any of them that don't fight for their cause as deserving of death as the Jews, and everyone else only cares about them insofar as it lets them achieve their own goals, such as their hatred of Jews, or hatred of Muslims. All they can do is die, and nobody seems to really care. Those that do are dismissed as sheep to propaganda.

2. So basically, it gives them no claim, despite you saying otherwise. I'm not asking what their reasons were, I already have a pretty good idea of that, and don't fault them for it.

3. I'm not arguing for the Arabs, I'm pointing out why these claims fail The Arabs being wrong doesn't make the Jews right. This may sound nonsensical, but think about it.

4. And yet they were ALL there with the same amount of claim.

5. So, because the pawn calls himself a representative of the Palestinian people, that makes it true? Honestly, it sounds like you only accept that statement because it validates your own dismissal of the Palestinian Arabs as a non-entity, despite the man having no credibilty whatsoever.

See where I'm going with this? There are no good guys and bad guys here. This attempt to treat the Palestinians as a non-entity is a disgusting practice, both on the part of the people claiming to defend them, and the people claiming to be attacked by them.

[KingAdrock]

I think the biggest reason why Israel vs Palestine is a huge issue is merely because the surrounding Arab powers want it to be. It's a great excuse to drum up anti-jew and anti-USA sentiment. The Arab powers-that-be love to rant with words about the plight of the poor picked on palestinians because it makes them look good; but their own actions show they couldn't give a shit about anyone in Israel. Arab countries control roughly 6 million square miles of land, plenty of room for their palestinian "brothers". And with one day's oil profits they could give each palestinian a bar of gold. But they don't, and they won't. They'll just keep up the talk / no action, except maybe just to send over some weapons to keep the fighting going.

[Doonie]

At 3/19/09 04:47 PM, MisterRPG wrote: 1. Thanks for clearing that up. As for the Palestinian Arabs, of -course- they have no other choice. They are besieged on two fronts, and surrounded by millions of people who don't care whether they live or die. The Israelis consider them less than dogs, Hamas uses them as shields for its own ends, the jihadists consider any of them that don't fight for their cause as deserving of death as the Jews, and everyone else only cares about them insofar as it lets them achieve their own goals, such as their hatred of Jews, or hatred of Muslims. All they can do is die, and nobody seems to really care. Those that do are dismissed as sheep to propaganda.

This whole paragraph is extremely and far from what i meant. You simplified it into absurd levels.

2. So basically, it gives them no claim, despite you saying otherwise. I'm not asking what their reasons were, I already have a pretty good idea of that, and don't fault them for it.

It actually does give "them" claim, general one, but a claim.

3. I'm not arguing for the Arabs, I'm pointing out why these claims fail The Arabs being wrong doesn't make the Jews right. This may sound nonsensical, but think about it.

You don't see my point, you actually agree with me.
My point is that both have equal claim for the land, while ignorant people like bcdemon along him 99% of the Arabs believe : "ARR JEWS FLY TOGETHER FROM EUROPE AFTER HOLOCAUST TO KICK INNOCENT PALESTINAINS SAYING GOD GAVE US LAND GO AWAY HURR BECAUSE NO ONE WNATED THEM HRUR HURR IM A FUCKING IDIOT"

4. And yet they were ALL there with the same amount of claim.

Yes. That's why no one should support the Palestinians, who wish to destroy Israel.
And should support Israel that supports the two state solution, at least did. (Remember when we offered them the land they wanted + East Jerusalem as their capital and they refused, declaring the second intifada? I'm sure you don't)

5. So, because the pawn calls himself a representative of the Palestinian people, that makes it true? Honestly, it sounds like you only accept that statement because it validates your own dismissal of the Palestinian Arabs as a non-entity, despite the man having no credibilty whatsoever.

I actually accept the statement because i believe it's true. The Palestinians are a tool made up to confront Israel in another war zone - The zone of world support and propaganda. And after a while, they themselves started believing they are a nation. Even though there is NO difference between them and any Arabs around them. But i acknowledge that fact that they exist today, while extremely disagree with what most of them stand for.

See where I'm going with this? There are no good guys and bad guys here. This attempt to treat the Palestinians as a non-entity is a disgusting practice, both on the part of the people claiming to defend them, and the people claiming to be attacked by them.

I never claimed that, or at least didn't mean to. The fact is, that's the majority of them still support Hamas. Why? Because they are stupid extremist Muslims.
What am i trying to make people understand? If you really want the best for both Palestinians and peace, you should support Israel. And not just support the Palestinians because " THEY ARE POOR OPPRESSED". Because honestly, they brought it on themselves.

[MisterRPG]

1. It's clear what you meant. You meant to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis, so that they can be treated as such. The fact is that Palestinians have nothing in common with Nazis, other than a hatred for Jews. They aren't jihadists. Some of them may be, but as a whole? No.

2. There's a difference between having a claim and having a claim with any merit. It lacks the latter.

3. Except that I clearly do NOT agree with you. Sure, I agree that the Arabs are wrong in many respects... but you believe that the Arabs being wrong makes the Jews right. I do not. Simpletons like BcDemon are irrelevant to this.

4. Sure, I remember it. I also remember it not being as simple as you present it to be, acting as if they'd been given everything they wanted. Do note, I agree with -this-: a two-state solution is important, and quite frankly, if the UN's position is enough to solidify Israel's right to exist, then they should have absolutely no say in the process of whether Palestine is considered a state of its own.

Israel as a nation deserves no special protection. Its peoples do, and that protection from extinction is all. Notice that the conflict centered on the destruction of Israel stemmed from the creation of Israel? Right, not from the introduction of Jews into the Jewish/Arabian Palestine. How's that relevant? It should be obvious, with your repeated claims that they wish to destroy Israel. Of course they do - they want Israel as a nation to fall. This is just another pathetic argument to liken them to the Nazis. This isn't a jihad, they want that other nation gone. Those running the show also want the Jews dead to give them absolute control over what's left, but they're not a representative of the whole, and the situation has been engineered in such a way as to force the Palestinian into the position they're in.

That's right. I don't care in the slightest if Israel continues to exist as a nation anymore than Palestine, but I do believe that if the right is to exist as a nation is to be extended to one, it must be extended to the other. And it should be made clear to both parties that absolutely no breach of this will be tolerated.

5. It's already clear what you believe. You are giving the man credibilty he is not due because he happens to agree with your position. That's garbage. The Palestinian Arabs are as much a people as the Palestinian Jews, and have every bit the same "right" to be considered the nation of Palestine that those Jews have the "right" to be Israel.

No difference? That's outright bigotry, and no different than saying all the Jews of Israel are alike.

6. They support Hamas because it's the lesser of two evils. One evil will embrace them and only use them as shields if they don't get the support they want. The other evil will happily gun them down, no matter whether they support them or not, like less than dogs and blame the other evil for it. Because by gosh, nobody's responsible for their own actions. This is why the Israel government and the Hamas trash that passes for part fo the Palestinian government are scum. Absolute inability to take responsibility for their own actions. It's always the OTHER guy's fault.

As for your suggestion that they must happily die for the people killing them or be considered "stupid muslim extremists", that's nothing more than bigotry. We get enough of that from those people. Must we have it from you too?

7. This battle between the Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews predates Israel. Leave the ridiculous oversimplification of blaming it all on the Arabs.

8. Neither side will ever offer a lasting peace. Neither side is worthy of "support". Israel? They have nothing to gain from Palestine being considered a nation, and will happily continue blowing away Palestinians because it makes their victims "evil" when they hate the Jews for doing it and fight back, continuing the cycle. I don't support either side. Both sides behave like filth, and when my own filthy country stops supporting that filthy behaviour, maybe just maybe we'll clean up our own act and lay down some law. THAT would be worth supporting.

[bcdemon]

At 3/19/09 10:22 AM, Doonie wrote:

At 3/19/09 09:33 AM, bcdemon wrote: Apparently the Palestinians were no different than anyone else was back in 1947, if you recall, nobody wanted the Jews. Poland and Russia had the largest Jewish community, and the most land mass, why send them to the Middle East, a place where EVERYONE voted against an Israeli state?

You are either a pathological liar, a person with very short memory. I'm sure you know why.
No, don't deny, i'm sure you do why, Ahmed. (Guessed right?)

Here you go AGAIN...... Making false claims that I am Arab because I don't support Israel. And what exactly am I lying about there? Am I lying that all of Europe decided the best place for all those Jews was OUT OF EUROPE? Am I lying when I say that the entire Middle East voted NO to Israel being placed there? Nope, 100% correctomundo.

the Jewish religion promised them that land eventually, and if you can't respect that, you're an idiot.

ROFL, WHAT? If someone came to my front yard and declared that there religion gave them my land, I would shoot the crazy bastard and put him out of his misery. I would definitely not respect him.
My religion says I can have your land, can I have it?

Again you are showing the lack of historical morals and scientific ethics of the Muslims, that would twist history and lie to themselves, just to convince yourself you are actually right.

I am showing the lack of morals and ethics of Muslims? How in the fuck am I doing that with what I said above?

You're a black woman trapped in a white mans body aren't you? I can tell by the way you type.

[Nylo]

It's gotten way past the point of finding common ground through history.

I have two roommates from Lebanon, and they're solid guys; except for their restless and unforgiving hatred of all things Israeli. The way we think of their prejudice as pointless with a zero-sum positive influence is exactly how they think of cooperation with them: stupid, pointless, and zero-sum.

Why exactly?

It's easy. One of them is from southern Lebanon, which is constantly being shelled to root out Hezbollah. And the other one is from Beirut, whose home was bombed in 2006 when Israel went to war against Lebanon.

Both of them know friends and family who have been killed by Israel. Therefor, they don't need to "understand" why Israel does what it does. They know Israel wants to expand, and they know Israel has killed friends and family. The equation for them is simple.

Is it right? Fuck no, not by my understanding of diplomacy. But their hate DOES make sense. It's a vicious circle of revenge.

Don't even get me started on our friend Naseem, who actually IS from Palestine.

[Me-Patch]

At 3/20/09 02:40 AM, Nylo wrote: But their hate DOES make sense.

Possibly the worst thing to come out of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is that the dispute has defined not only the Palestinian and Israeli communities but has shaped all of the arab world to some degree. Over the past 50 years the conflict has militarized arab political culture, coarsened politics to the point that even torture and terror can be rationalized, led to the destruction of centuries old arab jewish communities throughout the middle-east, and reinforced the tendency for regimes to find military solutions to political problems. Many Arab countries now have the excuse for bloated military budgets and to curtail civil and political freedoms

The dispute began as a conflict between zionist settlers and the indeginous inhabinants of palestine, but since Isreal has declared it's independance and the invasion by neighboring arab states in the spring of 1948 it has transformed from a Zionist-Palestinian conflict to an all out Arab-Isreali conflict with far reaching consequences and a devestating impact on the Arab world. If you want to accurately explain todays troubles in the entire middle-east region you have to take a long hard look at what this conflict with Isreal has done to shape their political climate.

[Doonie]

Dude, you gotta quotes, it's impossible to respond.

At 3/19/09 11:56 PM, MisterRPG wrote: 1. It's clear what you meant. You meant to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis, so that they can be treated as such. The fact is that Palestinians have nothing in common with Nazis, other than a hatred for Jews. They aren't jihadists. Some of them may be, but as a whole? No.

No, that's far from what i meant.
I meant that the Palestinians are like Germans were under Nazi rule, they have no other choice because they are brainwashed since age 0.

2. There's a difference between having a claim and having a claim with any merit. It lacks the latter.

It actually has a merit. But it doesn't matter anyway, you don't need a claim when you are doing nothing wrong.

3. Except that I clearly do NOT agree with you. Sure, I agree that the Arabs are wrong in many respects... but you believe that the Arabs being wrong makes the Jews right. I do not.

No i don't. I believe the Arabs are wrong is one issue, and that that Jews are right is a separate one. The Palestinians, honestly, are just a group of Arabs screwed by the Arabs, and not by the Jews. But of course they would not hate the Arabs but the Jews.

4. Sure, I remember it. I also remember it not being as simple as you present it to be, acting as if they'd been given everything they wanted. Do note, I agree with -this-: a two-state solution is important

It is simple. It is very simple. We offered more than we could ever give again, an amazingly generous offer and all of the world agreed with that. That offer would probably wont repeat again, and there's only one side to blame on that. "hatred, arrogance and a near suicidal unwillingness to compromise", any one?
I guess they just wanna continue with they're FREE PALESTINE movement, but at the same time refuse any kind of peace and talking. As time goes i am more sure that all they care about is propaganda. But well, it's working. (Doesn't it? ;])

Israel as a nation deserves no special protection. Its peoples do, and that protection from extinction is all. Notice that the conflict centered on the destruction of Israel stemmed from the creation of Israel? Right, not from the introduction of Jews into the Jewish/Arabian Palestine. How's that relevant? It should be obvious, with your repeated claims that they wish to destroy Israel. Of course they do - they want Israel as a nation to fall. This is just another pathetic argument to liken them to the Nazis. This isn't a jihad, they want that other nation gone. Those running the show also want the Jews dead to give them absolute control over what's left, but they're not a representative of the whole, and the situation has been engineered in such a way as to force the Palestinian into the position they're in.

They are the representative of the whole, that's the beauty of majority rule. The Palestinians had a very clear choice between - going towards peace - Fatah, and going towards more wars and more death - Hamas.
And it's hilarious how you along with many people only choose to understand they're side. "So what? Of course they wanna destroy the nation and kill every single Jew and rape them and cut their fingers one by one put their fingers in their own mouths to eat them, and then of course behead them. Of course they wanna do that, they are poor and oppressed".
Maybe see the Israeli side for once? Constantly attacked, constantly refused to any peace talkings, the only democracy in the middle east, surrounded by people with an official goal of destroying it.
But still people see it as the bad guy. -> "WOW ISRAEL IS SO AGGRESSIVE OCCUPIER"

That's right. I don't care in the slightest if Israel continues to exist as a nation anymore than Palestine, but I do believe that if the right is to exist as a nation is to be extended to one, it must be extended to the other.

Not Israel refused the 2S solution. "Israel is so aggressive, i mean, why do they want to exist so bad?"

5. It's already clear what you believe. You are giving the man credibilty he is not due because he happens to agree with your position. That's garbage. The Palestinian Arabs are as much a people as the Palestinian Jews, and have every bit the same "right" to be considered the nation of Palestine that those Jews have the "right" to be Israel.

I give the man credibility because he has no interest to lie. And because i know it to be true.
They do have every "right" to be considered a nation. I just pointed out few FACTS:
*Originally the Palestinians were a tool to confront Israel, not through war - Because it couldn't.
*The Palestinians aren't different from the Arabs, in anything. Except one thing - They immigrated to the same place as Jews did. (To make it clearer - Without Zionism the Palestinians wouldn't exist. This whole place would have been one state - Jordan, Lebanon, even Syria)

No difference? That's outright bigotry, and no different than saying all the Jews of Israel are alike.

Huh? The Palestinians as people are not different culturally from any of the Arabs around us. Same people.

6. They support Hamas because it's the lesser of two evils.

Lesser than two evils? Hamas are the most evil thing on fucking earth. Hamas is the most extremist, hate filled, blindly religious, warmongering group on earth. They said before the elections - Our only way is through war and "resistance" as they call it. (Shooting rockets into cities for 8 with no specific reason except provoking doesn't really look like resistance for me)
The Palestinians had the choice, they screwed it. Just like in 48. just like in 94, just like in 2000. Just like in 2005.
How many times can Israeli government reach it's hand, and get a bite in the finger. Eventually, everyone would punch. Dude, educate yourself a bit before you talk. Don't criticize what you can't understand.

As for your suggestion that they must happily die for the people killing them or be considered "stupid muslim extremists", that's nothing more than bigotry. We get enough of that from those people. Must we have it from you too?

Just.. what?

7. This battle between the Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews predates Israel. Leave the ridiculous oversimplification of blaming it all on the Arabs.

It's not oversimplified at all. My blame on the Arabs is very complicated.

8. Neither side will ever offer a lasting peace.

Israel did. Few times.

They have nothing to gain from Palestine being considered a nation, and will happily continue blowing away Palestinians because it makes their victims "evil" when they hate the Jews for doing it and fight back, continuing the cycle

Wrong. Israel gains everything from a Palestinian state.
-Israel is losing tons of money and investments because of the war. It's a serious harm to the Israeli economy. Studies show that without Israel would have probably been in the very top of the richest countries without the war. Now it's just ranked 23 in living standards.
- A constant boycott by the Arabs and extreme left wingers would be stopped.
- The occupation corrupts the Israeli society.
- World view of Israel is false right now.

I don't support either side. Both sides behave like filth.

Sorry, simply not true. (I simplify it?)

At 3/20/09 01:04 AM, bcdemon wrote: Here you go AGAIN...... Making false claims that I am Arab because I don't support Israel. And what exactly am I lying about there?

It's not because you don't support Israel. It's because like 90% of your messages are on Arab subjects and are pro-Arab, or anti-Western.

Am I lying that all of Europe decided the best place for all those Jews was OUT OF EUROPE?

Yes.

:Am I lying when I say that the entire Middle East voted NO to Israel being placed there?
Yes. (BECAUSE FFS, ISRAEL WASN'T "PLACED" THERE, I THOUGHT THAT WAS CLEARED UP IN THE LONG RESPONSE I SENT YOU IN THE PM, WHICH GOT NO RESPONSE TO. You understood i was right, you're just not a man enough to admit it, it contradicts everything you stand for, doesn't it?)

[Maus]

it's a war by proxy and all sides should be ashamed.

all sides.

it instills racism, separatism, hate and violence where there need not be any.

[TheladiesMan47]

At 3/16/09 04:28 PM, Jon-86 wrote: End of the day all war is sensless and so are the things that provoke it!

just like the american revolution right? What the hell were we thinking wanting democratic representation?

hahaha.

[MisterRPG]

Doonie:
Dude, you gotta quotes, it's impossible to respond.
~ I'll give it a shot, but like I said before, I'm a newb to posting here, and am not sure how to get the quote tags to work. <q></q>? Settle for italics meantime.

No, that's far from what i meant.
I meant that the Palestinians are like Germans were under Nazi rule, they have no other choice because they are brainwashed since age 0.
~ The difference between the Germans and the Palestinians is the Germans weren't being slaughtered by the Jews.

No i don't. I believe the Arabs are wrong is one issue, and that that Jews are right is a separate one. The Palestinians, honestly, are just a group of Arabs screwed by the Arabs, and not by the Jews. But of course they would not hate the Arabs but the Jews.
~ Having your family and friends killed by Israelis, having your home destroyed because a family member decided to fight back, being told you're a terrorist if you dare stand up for yourself isn't being screwed?

We offered more than we could ever give again, an amazingly generous offer and all of the world agreed with that. That offer would probably wont repeat again, and there's only one side to blame on that. "hatred, arrogance and a near suicidal unwillingness to compromise", any one?
~ Where's the generosity in telling someone they don't have the right to return to their homes? The only people you're being "generous" to is the terrorist filth you claim to hate. And no, that is NOT all Palestinians.

I guess they just wanna continue with they're FREE PALESTINE movement, but at the same time refuse any kind of peace and talking. As time goes i am more sure that all they care about is propaganda. But well, it's working. (Doesn't it? ;])
~ Yeah, because nobody else does propaganda ever. Like Israel would never do anything so dirty. Or the United States, or anyone else./ sarcasm FFS, we learn about this in grade school. Don't you?

They are the representative of the whole, that's the beauty of majority rule. The Palestinians had a very clear choice between - going towards peace - Fatah, and going towards more wars and more death - Hamas.
~ Yeah, let's pretend Palestine is a proper democracy with real majority rule. If they're so united, how come half the government turned on the other half? RIght.

And it's hilarious how you along with many people only choose to understand they're side. "So what? Of course they wanna destroy the nation and kill every single Jew and rape them and cut their fingers one by one put their fingers in their own mouths to eat them, and then of course behead them. Of course they wanna do that, they are poor and oppressed".
~ Don't even go there. Understanding their side does NOT mean I condone it, any more than I condone your side. I understand your side, despite your ridiculous propaganda (eat their fingers, rape them? rofl). Yeah, you're under constant attacks. That justifies anything you do to them, right? Since they all hate you and want you to die, you might as well start your own gas chambers, round up the Palestinians and do the world a favor, right? See, that's called propaganda too. And it's a load of crap no matter who it's coming from. Having a reason for doing it doesn't mean you have the right.

Maybe see the Israeli side for once? Constantly attacked, constantly refused to any peace talkings, the only democracy in the middle east, surrounded by people with an official goal of destroying it.
But still people see it as the bad guy. -> "WOW ISRAEL IS SO AGGRESSIVE OCCUPIER"
~ Let me break this down for you in simple terms: There are no good guys here.
1. The Palestinians are bad guys.
2. The Israelis are bad guys.
3. The Americans are bad guys.
(Note: I'm American)

There's only a bunch of bad guys and the victims of their filthy behaviour.

I give the man credibility because he has no interest to lie. And because i know it to be true.
~ No reason to lie? How naive can you be? He's serving Jordanian interests. Jordanian interests are only in synch with Palestinian interests because it serves Israeli interests to help force the situation that way. After all, it's hard to sympathize with someone when they're siding with the enemy, right?
Someone agreeing with you doesn't given them credibility.

They do have every "right" to be considered a nation. I just pointed out few FACTS:
*Originally the Palestinians were a tool to confront Israel, not through war - Because it couldn't.
*The Palestinians aren't different from the Arabs, in anything. Except one thing - They immigrated to the same place as Jews did. (To make it clearer - Without Zionism the Palestinians wouldn't exist. This whole place would have been one state - Jordan, Lebanon, even Syria)
~ Jews get credit for the Palestinians Arabs immigrating? Palestine is a people, if not a nation, just as the indigenous peoples of the USA existed before they were invaded and colonized. Not having legal national status doesn't make them less human. They may have been used as a tool, but that doesn't make them any less a people than the Palestinian Jews.

Huh? The Palestinians as people are not different culturally from any of the Arabs around us. Same people
~ Yeah, and all Jews in Israel are the same culturally as all Jews everywhere else, right? Please. Having a religion in common doesn't mean much. Heck, even the peoples of Israel are different culturally, correct? Heck, despite the "Jewish State" moniker, you're not even all Jews, are you?

Lesser than two evils? Hamas are the most evil thing on fucking earth. Hamas is the most extremist, hate filled, blindly religious, warmongering group on earth.
~ That's -your- opinion, and IMO, it's not the truth. IMO, the Hamas have nothing on the Nazis or their derivatives, and they're about the equal of the Christians and Muslims of the dark ages. That's what comes of giving religious filth the reign. They subjugate, rape, murder, and call it holy. As for the rest, the purpose of those rockets are pretty obvious. Baiting the Israelis into smearing their own public image. Congratulations, your government took the bait.

How many times can Israeli government reach it's hand, and get a bite in the finger. Eventually, everyone would punch. Dude, educate yourself a bit before you talk. Don't criticize what you can't understand.
~ I think that like Hamas, the Israeli government's attempts to reach out are nothing but a load of crap. They call it a peace process, pretend they're being generous to the Palestinians, knowing full well that the trash in control will crush the process. Instant PR points. They don't give a damn about the Palestinians, or this mess would be fixed. Your country has the support of the world's most powerful military, and has the world's premiere intelligence agency, supposedly. Yet despite that massive level of power, they can't put a stop to simple rocket attacks, can't take a rocket launcher out without slaughtering crowds of civilians, and so on. Maybe if they really cared, they'd attempt to enlist the Palestinians against Hamas. God forbid that happen, though, if they were successful, it would mean that Palestine become a viable country and competition. Their offers of lasting peace? Made to scum they know have no intention of accepting. As for "Just what?", think about why any Palestinian would want peace when you kill them.

Wrong. Israel gains everything from a Palestinian state.
1. Studies? Mind linking a source?
2. Palestinian peace isn't going to give you Arabian peace. Seriously, what?
3. Corrupts your society? What are you talking about?
4. Fault? Palestinian AND Israeli.

When Israeli actually starts working w/ Palestians against Hamas, then I'll agree that they're not filth. Meanwhile, they're killing Palestinians and blaming Hamas. So much for elite militaries. I already know ours has incompetent leadership. What's your excuse?

[Doonie]

Wow, that's just bullshit, I don't even know where to start.
Your view is fundamentally wrong, full of basedless assumptions and ignorance, there are so many things i actually need to teach you.

You didn't know anything about Fatah. I actually need to explain to you that Hamas and Israel never talk, because Israel first asked Hamas to recognize it's right to exist, which they strongly disagree to do. You said Israel never reached an hand. (What about disengagement plan? Was that a "load of crap" - Nice argument there.")

The difference between the Germans and the Palestinians is the Germans weren't being slaughtered by the Jews.

That first line, was just enough for me. (First Intifada? Decades of terror attacks through Gaza, before 1967? I was holding it inside for a while, but dude you are just an Idiot, sorry.

Having your family and friends killed by Israelis

Yea, like when the violence first started in 1987, by the Palestinians, thousand of Innocent Israelis weren't murdered. Right? Like in the second intifada, before anyone even thought of bombing Gaza/West bank, not thousands of Israelis were SLAUGHTERED in suicide bombings. You're memory is short, or just you were 8 years old at the time?
It just feels like you're opinion is one big conspiracy theory, you are reading about the subject during this argument (Don't deny it ;]). you are very closed minded. And honestly? I'm just wasting my time.

It just makes me sad how blind can people be.

[MisterRPG]

Your view is fundamentally wrong, full of basedless assumptions and ignorance, there are so many things i actually need to teach you.

So show me where I'm wrong, "teach" me, debate like a normal person instead of taking the coward's way out and calling me an idiot.

That first line, was just enough for me. (First Intifada? Decades of terror attacks through Gaza, before 1967?

This is called a straw man argument. You're asserting something I never claimed, and attacking it. Pure gutlessness. I've already accepted the Palestinian role in this, and I do not consider them innocent, any more than I consider your country innocent. Stop pretending I do so that you can dismiss me as an idiot.

If you're going to insist that Israel has never slaughtered Palestinians, that the only ones dying are Israelis, you're a liar. But that's not true, and you know that's not true, so let's get it out of the way right now. Palestinians have killed Israelis, and vice versa. The difference, according to your country is that when the former happens, it's evil terrorism, but when Israel does it, it's the fault of the evil terrorists. This is cowardice, a refusal to take accountability for your own country's actions. Israel fires the bullets, but it's someone else's fault.

Yea, like when the violence first started in 1987, by the Palestinians, thousand of Innocent Israelis weren't murdered.

"First started"? This violence has been going on since before 1948. Truces and cease-fires are just an extension of that. This is a cycle of violence, and cycles do not happen without the consent of both parties.

[em]Right? Like in the second intifada, before anyone even thought of bombing Gaza/West bank, not thousands of Israelis were SLAUGHTERED in suicide bombings. You're memory is short, or just you were 8 years old at the time?[/em]

Again, straw man. I already acknowledge their guilt in this matter.

[em]t just feels like you're opinion is one big conspiracy theory, you are reading about the subject during this argument (Don't deny it ;]). you are very closed minded. And honestly? I'm just wasting my time.[/em]

Conspiracy theory? You mean like "Da jews r murdering palestinians n the palestinians r rite!" crap? I don't believe that crap and you know I don't. I've told you as much. Honestly kid, grow the hell up. You are acting like a coward, first attempting to dismiss me as an idiot, and then taking it a step further by pretending I'm some crazy person because you don't have the balls to have a real discussion. Tell me how I'm wrong, don't pull this crap.

I've told you as much, that I believe that both parties are guilty, but you seem to believe that unless I accept pure Israeli innocence, and the idea that it's all one big dirty conspiracy against the Jews, then I'm kissing their butts. Honestly, you're as full of crap as they are. You think that propaganda is wrong, unless it's your propaganda. I must blindly follow and accept your words as right, or I am the enemy, an idiot, a racist, all the rest of that. Is that right? Yet you have the brass to sit there and blindly defend the actions of your own government, because you're such a mindless zealot that you can never accept that your government would do something wrong. There is no such thing as a perfect government. My government, your government, the Palestinian government, they're all guilty. My people, your people, their people: all guilty. I don't like them any more than I like your country. Take solace in the fact that I think my own country has behaved even worse than yours, since any suggestion that your country would do something bad seems to give you fits.

[em]It just makes me sad how blind can people be.[/em]

I agree. Open your eyes, and use them for the purpose they were intended. Throw off the shackles of your hypocrisy.

[Doonie]

Again, your whole last paragraph is inserting words into my mouth.

I mean :

This is called a straw man argument. You're asserting something I never claimed, and attacking it.

I am using "STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS?" your whole last paragraph, hell, your whole messages. That's what pissed me off.

it unless I accept pure Israeli innocence

Example

Not having legal national status doesn't make them less human. They may have been used as a tool, but that doesn't make them any less a people than the Palestinian Jews.

Example, Here you slowly made it look like i ever said they don't deserve a country, and that i said they are less of a people. That's what pisses me off, that's why i made my last message so general, because i just don't know how to reply to your nonsense.

because you're such a mindless zealot that you can never accept that your government would do something wrong

Another example.

I must blindly follow and accept your words as right, or I am the enemy, an idiot, a racist, all the rest of that

.....

that justifies anything you do to them, right?

And a following :

Since they all hate you and want you to die, you might as well start your own gas chambers, round up the Palestinians and do the world a favor, right? See, that's called propaganda too. And it's a load of crap no matter who it's coming from

I mean, what the fuck?

If they're so united, how come half the government turned on the other half? RIght.

Example.
Where in hell have i said united? WHERE? These are not government, these are different parties, they always oppose to each other.

And these were ones i remembered, I could go on and on.

If you're going to insist that Israel has never slaughtered Palestinians, that the only ones dying are Israelis, you're a liar. But that's not true, and you know that's not true, so let's get it out of the way right now. Palestinians have killed Israelis, and vice versa. The difference, according to your country is that when the former happens, it's evil terrorism, but when Israel does it, it's the fault of the evil terrorists. This is cowardice, a refusal to take accountability for your own country's actions. Israel fires the bullets, but it's someone else's fault.

Straw man arguments, ah? "If you are going to insist". Yep, i certainly insisted on that, and i have certainly said that.

I think it's obvious many more Palestinians died than Israelis. But you know what's the difference between us? You are the one using death as an arugment :

Having your family and friends killed by Israelis, having your home destroyed because a family member decided to fight back, being told you're a terrorist if you dare stand up for yourself isn't being screwed?

See? On one hand you keep accepting that they killed Israelis, and later you somehow use the fact that Palestinians died as well as an argument to prove their side. What the fuck?

You are the one seeing the situation so simple, both sides killed people and therefor both sides are guilty. I have never used the argument "ISRAELIS WERE SLAUGHTERED" in order to prove any rightness. Never, on the other hand, i keep seeing this pathetic shit thrown at us by ignorant bleeding-heart leftists.

And the part that seriously the straw that broke my back was when you referred to their attacks as STANDING UP. If anyone is standing up here, it's Israel.

Palestinians were killed, obviously, but that doesn't take even a bit of why Israel has the right on it's side.