Be careful what samples you use.

[Steven-Polley]

This mostly applies to FL Studio users, but it does apply to users of other DAW's as well.

Some of you may have heard about the mayhem that started on the IL forums late last year when a user known as DirtyCircuit used the loop packs->loops->Melody Loops->LP_Faxing Berlin C_128bpm in one of his songs that he was selling commercially. For those of you who subsribe to the magzine "Computer Music" and you read the article from last months issue about sampling, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Basically what happened is that Deadmau5 threatened to take legal action against him... because it is essentially a loop from his hit song "Faxing Berlin". But seriously, what has me confuzled is where they draw the line of what samples that come with your DAW are royalty free, and what isn't.

The only reply from Image-Lines Jean-Marie Cannie was "Well yes, he took the drumloops called Faxing Berlin, added the Melodic Loop called Faxing Berlin, repeated it for three minutes, added some bells and started selling it." Jean also said that the loops are for demonstration purposes, and not to be used by artists who use FL Studio.... wtf?!?

So, just giving Newgrounds a fair warning to watch out what samples you use, especially if you're going commercial! It would be best to post on the IL Forums... if you can (lolol) and ask if you are able to use the said sample in your song.

[sorohanro]

Is there an "official" list of the copyrighted samples that are included in FL (or other programs) ?
Many people use Garage Band (and even if they don't make "Duplo music" and use just drums) or Magix.
Magix loops are under a specific license, that is already clear.
So... list ?

[Back-From-Purgatory]

Well of course the guy threatened to take legal action, someone is using his loop to make money. As a general rule, you don't use loops in your "original" work. If you're using a premade loop, it's not your original work, and is subject to copyright laws.... Of which could throw you in court.

It's simple really... create your own music, don't use loops. If you must use a loop (That you didn't make), it had better be for noncommercial use.

[TwilightShade]

Yeah, using loops and selling them commercially is pretty dumb, in my opinion. Especially since it isn't that hard to create your own loop in any decent DAW. Which leads me to a question. How anal retentive are these people about individual sounds, such as a snare rim-shot or one note from a synth?

[Xenoscape]

At 3/14/09 08:18 AM, TwilightShade wrote: Yeah, using loops and selling them commercially is pretty dumb, in my opinion.

*cough*prodigy/daft punk*cough*

At 3/13/09 11:45 PM, Steven-Polley wrote: Basically what happened is that Deadmau5 threatened to take legal action against him...

not surprising, he's kind of a egotistic asshole.

At 3/14/09 06:43 AM, sorohanro wrote: Is there an "official" list of the copyrighted samples that are included in FL (or other programs) ?

apparently not, but there is a general consensus that the people responsible for the FL Studio content are retarded:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/12/01 /all-fruity-no-loops-fl-studio-to-remove -all-melodic-samples/

[HaniiPuppy]

At 3/14/09 06:43 AM, sorohanro wrote: Many people use Garage Band (and even if they don't make "Duplo music" and use just drums) or Magix.

All of the loops available with Garageband and Logic (express or pro) are royalty-free. The license they're issued under only prohibits selling or passing them on in their original form as individual loops.

At 3/14/09 07:12 AM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: Well of course the guy threatened to take legal action, someone is using his loop to make money. As a general rule, you don't use loops in your "original" work. If you're using a premade loop, it's not your original work, and is subject to copyright laws.... Of which could throw you in court.

It's pretty naïve to assume that people won't use a loop if you give it away with a DAW that is widely used. Expecting people not to use it is a bit like holding your wallet open in front of random strangers with your eyes closed, saying "please don't take any money."

[undercult]

I think the problem occurs when people wholesale rip loops without chainging it, or using them as the basis of the song. I mean, every big electronic band has/does use samples (prodigy, chemical brothers, dust brothers, etc.) but either they've got explicit permission or the samples are changed so much that they can't be identified or attributed to the origonal artist.

For instance, many people will have hit the same cymbals, with the same sticks, in the same pattern, but you can't call that loop 'stolen' from the beatles or some long forgotten 1920's band.

But, anyone who just uses stolen loops to make a song, should be shot at dawn.

[Steven-Polley]

Alright, well I understand a few of the people who've replied about this don't understand the irony. Why do you think Image-Line would include these loops in the packs folder... along with all of the samples that you CAN use, right next to the drum loops, which are used by many of us in a lot of our songs?

You see, in FL Studio's license, it explicitly says

* You can not use or sell any of the songs/loops that come included with FL Studio. If you want to use parts of it, you can contact the original creator and discuss this issue further with him.

So this means none of the loops that come with FL Studio should be used, which likely also means drum loops. Unless you have permission of the author. The one thing that is not mentioned directly in the licensing terms is the use of vocals from the FL Studio demo songs. So until more information is released in FL 9's license, I definitely think it would be best to save yourself the troubles, and stay away from any Image-Line loops that are not under a license saying you can use them royalty free. This really is a big deal, and I'm amazed that Image-Line really is just coasting along, too shy to make a verdict.

[Patch2006]

At 3/13/09 11:45 PM, Steven-Polley wrote: This mostly applies to FL Studio users, but it does apply to users of other DAW's as well.

Some of you may have heard about the mayhem that started on the IL forums late last year when a user known as DirtyCircuit used the loop packs->loops->Melody Loops->LP_Faxing Berlin C_128bpm in one of his songs that he was selling commercially. For those of you who subsribe to the magzine "Computer Music" and you read the article from last months issue about sampling, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Basically what happened is that Deadmau5 threatened to take legal action against him... because it is essentially a loop from his hit song "Faxing Berlin". But seriously, what has me confuzled is where they draw the line of what samples that come with your DAW are royalty free, and what isn't.

The only reply from Image-Lines Jean-Marie Cannie was "Well yes, he took the drumloops called Faxing Berlin, added the Melodic Loop called Faxing Berlin, repeated it for three minutes, added some bells and started selling it." Jean also said that the loops are for demonstration purposes, and not to be used by artists who use FL Studio.... wtf?!?

So, just giving Newgrounds a fair warning to watch out what samples you use, especially if you're going commercial! It would be best to post on the IL Forums... if you can (lolol) and ask if you are able to use the said sample in your song.

a response:
Yes, we really need to be careful of how we use samples. the thing is, is that samples we use for our recordings, can be used for new grounds. I suggest the readers here and musicians should try to create their own music (my opinion) I am sorry to hear about the law suit problem. That is rough for the person who actually created the sample pack or sample. I dont like the idea of lawsuits in the first place. I mean if you are going to try to sell your music, be careful. think it over. You should have the rights pended to be able to use the samples by the owner.

I want to eventually create a really good song own my own so I can put it on new grounds. I know it can be a fun thing. be careful and think it over again friends.
peace.

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/14/09 02:17 PM, Patch2006 wrote: a response:
Yes, we really need to be careful of how we use samples. the thing is, is that samples we use for our recordings, can be used for new grounds.

That's not true, as stated in the post above yours. We have no rights to use them.

I suggest the readers here and musicians should try to create their own music (my opinion) I am sorry to hear about the law suit problem.

That is 100% true... but the way Image-Line put it in with the royalty free samples is extremely lame and confusing.

That is rough for the person who actually created the sample pack or sample. I dont like the idea of lawsuits in the first place. I mean if you are going to try to sell your music, be careful. think it over. You should have the rights pended to be able to use the samples by the owner.

Well for one... Image-Line, the company responsible for developing and distributing FL Studio made a big mistake, they were the ones who compiled the loops pack, which was just thrown in with the a bunch of other samples. A lot of people, including myself, have used these loops. I'll often take a stock drum loop, and slice it up. I have used the Faxing Berlin Drum Loop myself D:

I want to eventually create a really good song own my own so I can put it on new grounds. I know it can be a fun thing. be careful and think it over again friends.

Well Newgrounds is a horrible place to go if you want to improve yourself. The community mainly consists of indie artists who have less than two or three years of experience with production, myself included. But there are a few people here who really stand out and are quite helpful!

[Patch2006]

At 3/14/09 02:37 PM, Steven-Polley wrote:

At 3/14/09 02:17 PM, Patch2006 wrote: a response:
Yes, we really need to be careful of how we use samples. the thing is, is that samples we use for our recordings, can be used for new grounds.

That's not true, as stated in the post above yours. We have no rights to use them.

I suggest the readers here and musicians should try to create their own music (my opinion) I am sorry to hear about the law suit problem.

That is 100% true... but the way Image-Line put it in with the royalty free samples is extremely lame and confusing.

That is rough for the person who actually created the sample pack or sample. I dont like the idea of lawsuits in the first place. I mean if you are going to try to sell your music, be careful. think it over. You should have the rights pended to be able to use the samples by the owner.

Well for one... Image-Line, the company responsible for developing and distributing FL Studio made a big mistake, they were the ones who compiled the loops pack, which was just thrown in with the a bunch of other samples. A lot of people, including myself, have used these loops. I'll often take a stock drum loop, and slice it up. I have used the Faxing Berlin Drum Loop myself D:

I want to eventually create a really good song own my own so I can put it on new grounds. I know it can be a fun thing. be careful and think it over again friends.

Well Newgrounds is a horrible place to go if you want to improve yourself. The community mainly consists of indie artists who have less than two or three years of experience with production, myself included. But there are a few people here who really stand out and are quite helpful!

thanks for replying! No i understand what you mean, I am still learning about copywrite so it is a bit confusing to me. But the thing is is that I came back to new grounds after years of not using it. But the thing is I am a indie artist. Its not that I like to listen to music. Even though the music is far advanced than my keyboard abilities can fathom (I am really a drummer) I can get some new idea for how my music will sound. I am glad that there are nice people out there. Thanks again for replying!

[Rawmin]

Interesting note: I did a little searching and found that a large portion of the loops in fl studio are from Deadmau5 songs

For example:

LollerCoaster

Hey Baby

I like your music

Faxing Berlin

Bounce

Lai

And I'm sure theres more. Whats weird is that he would agree to have his loops used in the software, and then get so heated when one of them gets used in a way that the software would imply to be legal...

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/14/09 04:55 PM, Rawmin wrote: Whats weird is that he would agree to have his loops used in the software, and then get so heated when one of them gets used in a way that the software would imply to be legal...

Exactly! I mean... what do you expect? Of course people are going to be using them in one way or another. But it DOES in fact say in FL Studio's terms of agreement that you can't use them lol.

[Rawmin]

While thats true, its almost like baiting in a way, because the samples are laid out there in such a way that it seems legal to use them, and only says otherwise in the fine print

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/14/09 05:53 PM, Rawmin wrote: While thats true, its almost like baiting in a way, because the samples are laid out there in such a way that it seems legal to use them, and only says otherwise in the fine print

Well yeah, I mean... that's why people are pointing the fingers at Image-Line right now, even though *technically*, it isn't their fault or problem. I'm kind of finding it funny in a way. But on 09/09/09, when FL 9 comes out, JMC said they're removing the loops folder from the packs list.

As far as the vocal samples that were used in demo projects go, they are not to be touched either... unless you have explicit permission to use them.

[Darren-M]

i think if you bought the program and the samples come in it by default than you now own all the samples! i mean what is so under handed about that. sure they are loops, and i dont like to use them, but if people got introuble for this than why doesnt everyone complain about dj's. most of them barely "literally make" any of the things they use in performing their sets.

idk you shouldn't license your samples or sell them to any daw if you dont want them used

[S3C]

At 3/14/09 10:13 PM, Chronamut wrote:

Also it should be common knowledge that if you are not going to put any effort into making your own drum patterns and are just gonna steal someone elses *COUGHS*AMENBREAK*COUGHS* then someone is going to get pissed off.

aww, look at the pot calling the black, X2 -_-

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/14/09 10:13 PM, Chronamut wrote: Also it should be common knowledge that if you are not going to put any effort into making your own drum patterns and are just gonna steal someone elses *COUGHS*AMENBREAK*COUGHS* then someone is going to get pissed off.

We're not talking about drum patterns, we're talking about drum loops, which can involve tons of originality! You can slice them up, chop them up etc. This has nothing to do with no being original and creating your own patterns... it is the samples in the loop itself that you cannot use, which is an entirely different ball-game.

In short, people suck. I dont know what else to say. If some idiot can copy right a drum pattern then the world really has gone to shit.

That's nice that you like talking about the amen break issue, but I'm talking about samples included with a DAW that are essentially off limits, but are thrown in with the other samples.

[BrokenDeck]

SIGH. People should just stop remixing loops, period. It's like taking your long-dead Great-Uncle Rich's tweed pants, cutting it apart, and trying to make a pair of cool modern shorts.

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/15/09 12:43 PM, brokendeck wrote: SIGH. People should just stop remixing loops, period. It's like taking your long-dead Great-Uncle Rich's tweed pants, cutting it apart, and trying to make a pair of cool modern shorts.

That is not true at all! There are entire sample CD's that just contain pre-sliced loops for you to use! Most you people are missing the point!

[YouriX]

At 3/15/09 12:43 PM, brokendeck wrote: SIGH. People should just stop remixing loops, period. It's like taking your long-dead Great-Uncle Rich's tweed pants, cutting it apart, and trying to make a pair of cool modern shorts.

But if people like remixing loops why not give them?
Anyways i think is stupid that you paid for Flstudio and still have to ask permittion to use the loops.

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/15/09 01:13 PM, YouriX wrote: Anyways i think is stupid that you paid for Flstudio and still have to ask permittion to use the loops.

Why? You paid for the DAW, not samples that come with it. You could think of them as being just a bonus on top of it. And the loops we're talking about are taken right from songs that are already being sold commercially.

[S3C]

...Obviously you don't know what that idiom means, or either you're not looking deeper into your own picture.

[LordZeebmork]

At 3/14/09 10:13 PM, Chronamut wrote: Also it should be common knowledge that if you are not going to put any effort into making your own drum patterns and are just gonna steal someone elses *COUGHS*AMENBREAK*COUGHS* then someone is going to get pissed off.

haha oh god. the song that I'm listening to now (hanzel und gretyl - starfucker) has a repeated, slightly cut amen break running through most of the song in place of real drums.

wait a minute this isn't c&c what am I doing here whoops

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/15/09 08:49 PM, LordZeebmork wrote: wait a minute this isn't c&c what am I doing here whoops

What?

[InGenius]

*cough*Midi rip*cough*

Anyways...the license with FL8 is clear. None of the loops are royalty free, not a single one. Without: (A), clearing the samples, (B), expressly notifying the purchaser that it is their job to clear the samples, and/or (C), replaying a close approximation of the original sample and then chopping that, thus neagting the need for clearance, you are not exactly in the smart end of the spectrum when it comes to production.

But, while I do agree that it was the producer's fault here, I also put 30%, give or take, of the fault on FL for not realizing that Deadmau5 was a total douchenozzle and would do this when he made it big(ger). The guy is a complete spaz when it comes to mere notion that someone might in some way profit from his work:

http://www.inthemix.com.au/news/intl/402 91/Deadmau5_calls_DJs_fcking_cnts

He doesn't even get the role of DJ's in the industry. He's completely at a loss for the realization that he alone did not build up his cozy little reputation. Now, quite true I don't think the average dance DJ is particularly as talented as alot of the fanboys think they are (OMIGAWD, It's Keoki! No, OMIGAWD he did something original...where is that at?), I do have to say after they vote you #1 and basically start your career for you, maybe you could just say "Unoriginal DJ's are cunts", rather than ALL DJ's are cunts.

Really, this comes down to where will Deadmau5 be two years from now? I see....nowhere. Don't bite the hadn that feeds you, and definitely don't make the company that endorsed you and gave you a free ride look like idiots when you sue someone for using your loops. He shoulda brokered a % deal, regardless of how small the actual dollar amount might've been, and fostered some goodwill and made it seem like Dance music isn't about stuck-up, arrogant pricks, chavs, guidos, and other cock swallowers with no talent.

But, again...midi rip.

[war-spawn]

I sampled enough times to land me in debt for the next 2 life times. I just don't plan on going commercial :3

[Steven-Polley]

At 3/16/09 12:06 AM, war-spawn wrote: I sampled enough times to land me in debt for the next 2 life times. I just don't plan on going commercial :3

Alright, well it doesn't matter if it's commercial or not. Basically in the article I read, it's generally *ok* to sample, if you can take the sample and make it not comparable to the original... which of course makes sense.

But loops that are stock in your DAW are normally allowed to be used in any way, except re-distribution...

[LJCoffee]

At 3/16/09 12:23 AM, Steven-Polley wrote: Basically in the article I read, it's generally *ok* to sample, if you can take the sample and make it not comparable to the original... which of course makes sense.

I read the same article - great mag. The problem is that the laws are different from country to country. What's alright there is not necessarily ok here. The article also goes on to say that the laws still haven't been updated or clarified and that even though some people consider sampling alright, there's currently a very real possibility that it will land you in legal trouble.

As for "not going commercial" it doesn't matter. If you post your work here, then it currently falls under a creative commons. It is not legal to allow someone else's copyright work to fall under a CCPL without express permission . It's a long complicated chain but it goes a little like this:
Party "A" creates something and retains all copyrights
Party "B" samples party "A"s work without permission and posts it somewhere under a CCPL
The rest of the world assumes that party "B"s work can all be used legally to create derivative works
Party "C" samples the same section that "B" used and creates a derivative work that was unknowingly created using party "A"s copyright material.
Party "A" sues party "C" who claims that he had rights under the CC of party "B"s work
Party "A" then has suits against both "B" and "C" and anyone else that used it.
Parties "C", "D", "E", etc... may also have potential suits against party "B" to force "B" to compensate them for damages brought by party "A"'s legal action...

Moral of the story - do not use samples unless you are certain that you have proper usage rights.

Now I have a headache...

references:
creativecommons.org 3.0 CCPL legalcode
Copyright and Open Content Licensing: Clearing copyrights

Good luck...

[Nintechno]

At 3/14/09 04:55 PM, Rawmin wrote: And I'm sure theres more. Whats weird is that he would agree to have his loops used in the software, and then get so heated when one of them gets used in a way that the software would imply to be legal...

Are we sure that FL took the loops off him? I would have thought that he used FL's loops in one of his songs, otherwise FL wouldnt be able to make money off those loops by selling them boxed with the rest of the sudio.

OMG SCANDAL!!!