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i liked obama until now......this might be a lil extreme but im joining the kkk ill be the only mexican there

At 3/14/09 01:19 AM, Dragonmad wrote: As far as I can see, this entire topic thus far has been a combination of parents and students arguing about the school system, and liberals and conservatives arguing about the NCLB act.

The entire system of our country's public education is a joke right now, and to blame it on the students or the government alone is just narrow minded.

I'm a freshman highschool student and I'm for increased hours, dispite whatever anyone may say about students choosing the "path with least work" or whatever. The current school system is a joke in general in that it stops being free the moment you become an adult, and most people who want to get into decent colleges have to fight tooth and nail before they even realize their actions are necessary to that magnitude. And it certainly doesn't help that the shool system up until the high school level is painfully dumb, to the point that myself, and several others I know (in different areas, so this isn't just me) drops you into a situation you're totally unprepaired for.

The No Child Left Behind act is even more laughable than the schools. "Oh, let's give the students a ridiculously easy series of standardized tests and then remove funding from the ones who do poorly. Let's make it even harder for those who have trouble (not including those who don't want to work in this) to get a good education and make the school cut sallaries and have to hire unmotivated minimum wage teachers! It's ingenious!"

Was the bill written by a retarted fucking monkey!?

If Obama's school plan is real, I certainly salute it. We need to increase the intelligence of our youth, and stop hurting those of (and I don't mean this in an insulting or arrogant way at all) less aptitude. Longer school days will certainly help, and if that doesn't work, then we try something else. The economy will be fixed by future workers, not just those involved right now. Educating future workers = a faster economic recovery.

As for Obama's re-election, it's a lock no matter what. He deserved it, and still does. However, he got in because of the (and I'm sure I'll end up being flamed for this, but it needs to be said anyway) African american population's vote, and only because of the color of the skin. They picked the right leader for the wrong reasons, but whatever.Liberals and Conservatives can sontinue fighting like fucking three year olds over who gets to stack the alphabet blocks, or we can shut up and fix the problem!

Seeing the way you speak, it certainly does sound like that of a high school freshman, naive and immatured. Longer school days won't do anything, thats not education reform. Thats just longer days of the same education system. Its whats being taught that needs to change. More emphasis on things that can be applied to the real world and less on things not needed. Like more math and science and more business writing, seeing as thats whats actually applied in todays world. I think all else really is nothing more than elective. Do you really need to know a foreign language to work in the business world of the U.S.? Probably not (though that depends on your job), considering most speak english (which needs to be made the official language of our country). History is probably one of the only exceptions, though only an understanding of the American government, along with modern world and American history. Things like poetry and understanding themes and symbolism in books probably isn't needed. We need more emphasis on proper grammar, spelling, and understanding words and their definitions.

At 3/14/09 02:10 AM, Nosferatu-of-Worms wrote: Seeing the way you speak, it certainly does sound like that of a high school freshman, naive and immatured. Longer school days won't do anything, thats not education reform. Thats just longer days of the same education system. Its whats being taught that needs to change. More emphasis on things that can be applied to the real world and less on things not needed. Like more math and science and more business writing, seeing as thats whats actually applied in todays world. I think all else really is nothing more than elective. Do you really need to know a foreign language to work in the business world of the U.S.? Probably not (though that depends on your job), considering most speak english (which needs to be made the official language of our country). History is probably one of the only exceptions, though only an understanding of the American government, along with modern world and American history. Things like poetry and understanding themes and symbolism in books probably isn't needed. We need more emphasis on proper grammar, spelling, and understanding words and their definitions.

I agree with you on some of those points, in that there needs to be an increase on emphasis on things like spelling and grammar, but I DO feel that being able to know at least one foreign language is important. I could get into a whole big debate with you on other sections of what you said but I'm not going to go off topic because of my beliefs or my accepted inability to walk away from a political argument.

If we were to decrease the study of poetry and undertanding themes of books, the country's literacy rate would nosedive because students who might actually enjoy reading suddenly have no clue about it because they were only exposed to text books and a bit of those paragraphs in the grammar books that are either painfully biased or painfully stupid.

Someone wise once also said that if we do not learn from history then we are destined to repeat it. If you take out history class then it is extremely likely that some of the earlier wars of history will be forgotten as well. People will forget all about how if there's a plague, they should be clean, and things like that. History has been an essential part of any school curriculum for hundreds of years, and it needs to stay.

Business writing would only work if you were going into business. Suppose you were going to be an author, or a teacher? What about a journalist? We need to increase emphasis on all education, not just what is generally believed to be necessary in the "real world"

At 3/13/09 04:03 PM, Memorize wrote: Since we're obviously seeing a trend of liberals protesting Obama's Iraq and Afghanistan strategy, which is... dun dun duuuuun... the exact same as Bush's.

Where exactly is that? Most of what I've seen so far is if not outright gushing support, at least no real decent. So basically, all I've seen is support or neutrality.

Since we're obviously seeing an uprise of liberal dissent against Clinton for bombing and invading Iraq under the premise of WMDs, right?

If we did, that'd be pretty stupid since while Clinton did vote for it, she isn't the only one. Unless you mean that we're seeing uprise against her as PART of the block that did so.

Why should I expect liberals to bitch to Obama about his continued funding and support of Bush's "No Child Left Behind" Act? An act so terrible, says the liberal, that it is further ruining education.

This is further funding of such a thing how exactly?

Because 40 hours a week isn't enough, right?

Apparently not, I hear teachers complaining all the time kids aren't retaining the information.

And if it doesn't work?

We have to try something else then don't we? What would you have us do? Just give up?

What are you going to do? Propose more hours?

I'm not sure what I'd propose, if you're asking what would I do if I was President, then I'd have to say I'd need to really research the subject, probably get some of the top teachers together from all levels of our public school system and listen to their ideas and concerns and formulate a strategy from there. But shorter summer breaks and longer school hours I don't think is necessarily a bad idea if it leads to smarter better educated kids.

Gee, it could be due to a lack of standards,

Then make the standards tougher. Which oh hey, you'd need government intervention for wouldn't you? But you said the government needs to be out of the schools.

piss poor pay

Increase their pay. But we'd probably need some sort of law for that I'm thinking...which means we need the government again...which you're against, so I guess we can't do that either.

and it's result in increasing the cost of a college education.

Something Obama has pledged to work on reducing, and even if he turns out to be a total lier, again I don't see how you make college more affordable without the government again. So this idea of "get the government out of education" that you're proposing would from my perspective just lead to us having the same problems you've just pointed out (and I do wholeheartedly agree are issues) or maybe they even get progressively worse.

Considering that the government has failed in this area for decades, what makes you think it's going to work now?

I'm not sure it will, but it's worth a try isn't it man? Unless we get to where we FORCE parents to be good (which AGAIN would require some sort of government intervention) what can we do? I just don't see how you can be taking the positions you're taking and not see that ultimately, if the government doesn't try, and eventually come up with effective we're just going to be leaving it up to parents and praying that they'll give a crap. So in the end, the problems just get worse.

My point is that considering the government has been attempting to do ALL OF THIS since FDR and Lyndon Johnson's "The Great Society" (which turned out to be total disasters), how many more decades or half-centuries do we have to go before we realize that it doesn't work?

I don't know, maybe until we start putting politicians in office that are actually willing to fix the problems instead of band aids over gun shot wounds.

Memorize you cowardly American lazy scum most other countries are fucking EONS beyond us education wise for you to criticize a plan that would increase the hours ONE THOUSAND percent let alone this miniscule amount is laughable and shows that you hold no true ideals or care for the survival of your species.

Get ready for a long post here....

At 3/13/09 03:14 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: But can it really hurt to increase the hours to get the teachers who actually are prepared and trying to have a bit more time to drill the things that need to be drilled into these kids heads? It's not gonna solve the whole problem, but as a step in the process (which is absolutely what it sounds like) is it really a bad idea?

It actually is a bad idea. And I know you'd probably think: "You're a student, of course you'd want less school", but I couldn't care less how long school is. Lengthening school hours does not work.

Case in point: a middle school in my town lengthened school by 2 hours. Nothing has changed grade-wise. The result of lengthening school is just that students pay less and less attention and just focus on getting out of there. No one's attention span is high when it has to be focused on something that they don't care about.

Doesn't it seem odd how some students seem to get amazing grades and some get poor grades, even though they take the same level classes, have the same education, and go to the same school? And doesn't it seem odd that students from one school get the highest grades and another school gets the lowest grades, even though the curriculum is the same and the hours are the same length? Such cases happen in my state all the time.

The problem is not with how long school is. Lengthening it would solve absolutely nothing. The problem is that a lot of Standardized Tests don't work and that a lot of teachers are just, simply put, not good teachers.

Another example from my life: my state takes something called the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System, or the "MCAS". It's a Standardized Test that focuses on writing, grammar, sciences, History, and the likes of the standard curriculum. Ask any teacher in any Massachusetts school, and ask any High School student in any Massachusetts school (since they've been taking it for a couple of years now), and they'll tell you that the MCAS doesn't test knowledge, but memorization skills.

I can break this down line by line, but I'll just give an example. When it comes to the writing section, teachers in my school have us memorize a formula for the test that will give you the best grade on your 5-paragraph essay. They teach you sentences to use, when to use them, and what words to use. For example, they tell us to replace a phrase like "He then..." to "At this time, he...". It's all just a memorization formula. The result is that students from my school have had the best grades on that essay portion.

This is a blatant case of how most Standardized Tests work: they only test your memorization skills and not your knowledge.

When it comes to teachers, I've taken notice to who's bad and who isn't. It's not impossible for a student to know that the way a teacher teaches isn't beneficial. Just because he/she is a student doesn't mean that he/she is incapable of noticing problems with the school system, which is what most of you are suggesting here.

Keep in mind that my most recent grades were straight A's with 2 B's. In both of my classes that I used in these examples, I got the "highest average" (according to the teacher) in one, and a solid A in the other.

Yet another example: Early in the year in my Algebra 2 class, the teacher told a student, and I quote: "This class may not be the right one for you" (saying that it's too high up in sophistication) just because he/she forgot how to graph on the Z-Axis. The teacher didn't bother to help him understand, she didn't bother to re-explain it or give examples, but she told him, in "sugary" words, that he was too dumb for her class.

Another example is my Biology teacher. The only way we learn in his class is through taking notes. Routinely, he gets off-topic. Recently, he was talking about Creamsicles during a "note-session" on Genetic Engineering. The only time he ever explains what the notes say is during the time that we are taking notes, i.e. while we're focused on writing down what's on the PowerPoint slide before he changes it and not listening to our surroundings.

With teachers like this and tests that are all about memorization rampant around our schools, how can you say that the ONLY problem is the students? How can any of you claim that the ONLY problem is that school is too short? How can any of you claim that students are the ONLY ones not giving a damn?

And let me also add that people should stop comparing American students to Japanese, Korean, or Chinese students, and they should stop trying to compare our school systems. The reason why Asia is doing better in education is simple because of the fact that those countries focus on education. The children are forced to do their homework every day and it's ingrained into the students' minds that education is more important than their life.

The United States simply doesn't put such an emphasis on education. I can legally drop out of school (that doesn't mean I am), even though the most important parts of my education I'm only just beginning to learn. I come home every day, and my mother couldn't care less when I do my homework. To be honest, most of it is done early in the morning or in Homeroom.

I'd like you to know that I'm getting all A's (and 2 B's) in school because I get the material. I'm one of the lucky ones who understand things from various angles and so don't need to have things explained on paper, in the form of notes, in drawing, explained in a different way, etc. because I understand it no matter how it is taught.

But think about the students who only understand things from one angle (i.e. the majority of students). Think about those who can only get something if it's in the form of notes, or in the form of steps. These are the students who have been truly left behind because most teachers only teach in one method, and some students may not understand their method. The result is that they're called dumb, are given up on, and are allowed to give up on themselves with no regard to there possibly being a problem in how they are being taught.

Every American student is more worried about what their grades are than what they've learned. That leads to students unconsciously memorizing the material instead of learning it. As one of my teachers said: "The main problem with the school system is in our society because our society revolves around education for the sake of grades and not for the sake of education".

Asian schools focus on education for the sake of education. American schools focus on education for the sake of grades. As a quote in my Latin class translated to in English: "We learn not for life but for school".

The first step to making our students smarter is to change the outlook of society. Stop focusing so much on grades and start focusing more on what students are learning, how they are learning it, and why.

I'm going to try to organize all of the problems that have been cited with the American school system.

1) Ineffective and inefficient spending habits. Most notably my school, where they decided to equip themselves with laptops, smartboards, flatscreen monitors, and other unnecessary junk just for the sake of "having it" and still have the gall to complain about budget issues. To their credit though, it was still a damn good school.

2) Ineffective teaching methods, focusing on memorization rather than understanding. Not much more needs to be said about this, it already speaks for itself. Plus Achilles2 pretty much covered that base completely.

3) Incompetent teachers. Achilles2 cited a teacher who was apt to tell a student that he/she wasn't smart enough for the class rather than actually "teach" the student. I cited a problem where the teacher takes up more of a peace officer role than a teaching role. One specific teacher comes to mind, a Biology teacher who literally handed out a worksheet every day and told the class to just answer the questions on the worksheet by reading the book. Then he just sat down and watched the class, only providing help as to where a particular piece of information can be found, effectively combining the three largest flaws into one big package of incompetence. Somehow he still has a job.

4) Culture. American culture itself doesn't take kindly to school. Most people are focused on getting out of there at the end of the day rather than actually learning something of value. And part of that comes from the fact that many of the classes really don't teach you something that you'll be able to take away and use later unless you actually decide to go to college, which leads me to....

5) College. Most high schools are actually preparing you to go to college, and for those who don't, then high school is a waste of time save for the grade and the diploma. Chemistry and Bio won't help much when one is working right after high school as a result of unfortunate circumstances. There should be an option for those who unfortunately ended up with children, or choose to work right out of high school, or literally can't afford college. In fact, the only place where you really get job/life training is post-highschool, where you actually declare a major and study for it, whether it be in college or just a trade school.

6) Poor standards and poor ways of measuring schools. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to test how much a student learned though the use of an easily-abused system that tests only memorization rather than understanding? Furthermore, whoever decided to use muliple choice on most of the tests should be punched for it, considering that that particular format, while easing work for graders, only pushes for memorization. And NCLB is even worse for allocating funds based on that already failed system.

7) This one's a smaller problem that many of you may not be aware of, but teachers have a choice of where they want to work. Many of the better teachers opt to work outside of urban areas for several reasons:
a. Because of higher revenues from property taxes in the suburbs, pay is better.
b. Suburbs are safer than urban areas, so it's a better work environment.
As a result, cities get the bottom-of-the-barrel teachers who really shouldn't be teaching in the first place. And even teachers who once worked in inner cities will eventually go to the suburbs when an opportunity arises, so inexperienced and/or incompetent teachers will end up in the inner cities. Funny thing about this specifically is that bad teachers will continue to spawn bad students, causing more good teachers to jump ship and run for the suburbs, while bad teachers take their place and spawn more bad students. Vicious circle.....

I believe that sums up my list. Any one else who wishes to amend it or comment on it may do so.

At 3/14/09 02:10 AM, FatJoe214 wrote: i liked obama until now......this might be a lil extreme but im joining the kkk ill be the only mexican there

You'll be the only one beaten to death and set on fire too...

I was watching Bill Maher's show so last and he mentioned how we ranked only 35th or so on the highest IQ ranges in the world. With all of this money and these resources, we've been neglecting more important things like intelligence. This is going to help us understand bigger problems with the world and how to solve them. We need more people graduating with college degrees. I've been working on a lot of crazy things in college lately, and I want this to go to good use.

At 3/12/09 09:09 PM, Achilles2 wrote:

At 3/12/09 08:02 PM, Brick-top wrote: Age/Gender: 16, Male

Question answered.

I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Of course whenever someone leaves school they instantly forget what it was like.

Duhh!!

Advice? No this kid is bitchy because he doesn't want to spend a single hour more at school. Don't try to deny it we were like that.

Fuck that shit!i'd rather drop out than go longer and take ahrder tests!

At 3/14/09 05:13 PM, FLAMEBOY97 wrote: The idea of longer school hours displeases me! I'd rather drop out of school than attend for longer hours and more days! Furthermore, I'd rather not be subjected to harder exams!

There. Fixed so that you actually look intelligent rather than like some random 8 year old in a room full of scholars.

Maybe you should consider spending more time in school so that you can learn proper grammar and sentence structure, as well as making your writing look asthetically pleasing rather than annoying and abrasive.

At 3/14/09 02:10 AM, FatJoe214 wrote: i liked obama until now......this might be a lil extreme but im joining the kkk ill be the only mexican there

The KKK hates all non-whites, not just blacks. And race aside, you're an idiot.

At 3/14/09 03:08 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:

Where exactly is that? Most of what I've seen so far is if not outright gushing support, at least no real decent. So basically, all I've seen is support or neutrality.

It was sarcasm.

I'm asking: I want to know where all the protesting liberals against Iraq are now that Obama is pursuing that same middle east strategy as Bush.

If Bush was being protested for Iraq, then where are those protestors against this Policy under Obama now?

If we did, that'd be pretty stupid since while Clinton did vote for it, she isn't the only one. Unless you mean that we're seeing uprise against her as PART of the block that did so.

I was talking about Bill Clinton and Operation Desert Fox.

This is further funding of such a thing how exactly?

Considering he's not repealing the act and is demanding more standardized tests, how is this different from it?

Apparently not, I hear teachers complaining all the time kids aren't retaining the information.

And how much more money is that going to cost for those extra hours?

We have to try something else then don't we? What would you have us do? Just give up?

Well, since it hasn't been working for decades...

Then make the standards tougher. Which oh hey, you'd need government intervention for wouldn't you? But you said the government needs to be out of the schools.

Why would you need government intervention to obtain better test scores when Private Schools and Home Schools already surpass our public government funded education system?

Increase their pay. But we'd probably need some sort of law for that I'm thinking...which means we need the government again...which you're against, so I guess we can't do that either.

So our government, which is broke, is going to shell out money it doesn't have?

Something Obama has pledged to work on reducing, and even if he turns out to be a total lier, again I don't see how you make college more affordable without the government again. So this idea of "get the government out of education" that you're proposing would from my perspective just lead to us having the same problems you've just pointed out (and I do wholeheartedly agree are issues) or maybe they even get progressively worse.

I am talking about the Federal Government, not the State Governments.

I just don't believe the federal government has any business in doing anything other than provide for the common defense, protecting and upholding the constitution, making treaties, declaring war, and earmarking.

I'm not sure it will, but it's worth a try isn't it man? Unless we get to where we FORCE parents to be good (which AGAIN would require some sort of government intervention) what can we do? I just don't see how you can be taking the positions you're taking and not see that ultimately, if the government doesn't try, and eventually come up with effective we're just going to be leaving it up to parents and praying that they'll give a crap. So in the end, the problems just get worse.

But if that means nothing changes, then at least we'll be saving a whole lot of money.

At 3/14/09 08:11 PM, Memorize wrote: It was sarcasm.

Well, :p faces and such help. You're a smart guy, you know it's hard to tell sarcasm on the internet sometimes.

If Bush was being protested for Iraq, then where are those protestors against this Policy under Obama now?

I always thought the protests were being there in the first place? Plus I can tell you exactly what happened there, somebody elsewhere on this board already pointed it out: we moved on to the new "big crisis". Everybody worried about the economy and their own wallets so that has their attention on that. Sadly, I don't think anybody really cares about Iraq or Afghanistan now unless they have a relative over there.

I was talking about Bill Clinton and Operation Desert Fox.

My bad, I assumed the wrong Clinton.

Considering he's not repealing the act and is demanding more standardized tests, how is this different from it?

Because he wants kids to be in school more for one. Big difference? No sir, but you only asked for A difference, not a big huge difference.

And how much more money is that going to cost for those extra hours?

Dunno, but if it were to actually WORK, ain't it money well spent?

Well, since it hasn't been working for decades...

Let's be very clear, cause now I get the feeling we've miscommunicated somewhere along the line here. I'm not saying I'm married to this plan, what I took issue with was what sounded to me like you saying the government should do absolutely jack shit with education, which to me is a defeatist and insane attitude because we need to have education, and GOOD education because otherwise society falls apart. That's what I took issue with, because I just can't see where government can totally fuck off out of education and the system to really work.

Why would you need government intervention to obtain better test scores when Private Schools and Home Schools already surpass our public government funded education system?

Maybe because people can't afford them? Also doesn't that sort of violate that little thing in the constitution about a "free and public education"?

I am talking about the Federal Government, not the State Governments.

I think State government should take a greater hand, but they're just as broke right now (Jersey is certainly feeling the pinch, but that's mostly down to corruption and the incompetence of our governor and legislature)

But if that means nothing changes, then at least we'll be saving a whole lot of money.

Which will mean crap when the horde of uneducated retards that then inherit this country are unable to do anything higher then menial labor jobs.

At 3/14/09 04:41 PM, fli wrote:

At 3/14/09 02:10 AM, FatJoe214 wrote: i liked obama until now......this might be a lil extreme but im joining the kkk ill be the only mexican there

You'll be the only one beaten to death and set on fire too...

im mexican a fire is normal heat to me

but still today's generation of kids don't really seem interested in education do we? I mean look at me I would rather be mindlessly playing video games then even touch my math homework, but thats only my Opinion everyone is different, some might support or oppose my opinion, its the person not the school who does all the work, It's your life, so its your decision.

Really now? I never heard of it before but longer school days? I mean come on now, like school hasen't taken up enough of my free time. Well it actually depends...I go to college, so does it apply to me?

School does not in fact absorb your FREE time. Because guess what, if you weren't in school, you would be working, unless you're really keen on being a leech on the system the rest of your life.

Enjoy your education while it lasts, and understand this: you only get out of school what you put into it.

At 3/12/09 07:20 PM, Flash-Gamers wrote: Anyways Obama is trying make it were us kids have longer school days, goto school longer during the year, and harder test! Hopefully most of his proposed school plans never become law.

Isn't that a good thing?

At 3/15/09 01:33 PM, AwesomeOrNawt wrote:

At 3/12/09 07:20 PM, Flash-Gamers wrote: Anyways Obama is trying make it were us kids have longer school days, goto school longer during the year, and harder test! Hopefully most of his proposed school plans never become law.

Isn't that a good thing?

That's what people who want high education are after, but people who just think it's too stressful think differently.

At 3/15/09 12:28 AM, FatJoe214 wrote: im mexican a fire is normal heat to me

yes yes darling,
I'm mexican too.

Overall longer school days are a must. However, I don't agree with charter schools. They don't significantly improve student performance and they don't provide for special needs students. They are run by a board of CEOs and not by people who are educaton oriented people. Education is not a business, it's life.

Truly, what I want to know is how Obama planson creating a better output school system, when essentially the whole point of that concept is that schools can't make excuses for failing performance. Excuses are not just desperate attempts to keep a school open, their pleas from school that say that there are other factors outside the classroom which would cause any school, public, private, or charter to fail miserably.

You should all take look at this report filed by Great Lakes Center

We are in the middle of a education revolution people and we have to makes sure that we are taking this in the right direction. Don't close schools, but change the neighborhoods they are in so Out of school factors create a positive environment for learning and not a disabling one. http://www.greatlakescenter.org/docs/Pol icy_Briefs/Berliner_NonSchool.pdf

he also thinks we need better teachers.
he thinks that if being a teacher is a higher-paying job, we will have better teachers, and thus better educations.

lol, what a fluke!

At 3/18/09 08:16 PM, moose3642 wrote: lol, what a fluke!

So it's false that many teachers in the school system are terrible?

Ignorance shouldn't have a say. Don't post until you learn.

Ha, I've only got two more years in High School, so hopefully that'll be long enough before he starts radically changing things.

Also, our education system is broken. It's passed on the old farming method school. Letting kids off in the summer to help with the farm.

I'm in college and I'm not sure if his decisions affects colleges, though they probably do.

Kids need to be able to start working at a younger age. It doesn't take 12 years of schooling to be prepared for 90% of the jobs out there. If a kid wants to start working at 15 to become a trades person I think that should be an option to them... Sitting in a school desk while teachers numb your brain with boring speeches sounds like it encourages laziness.

Then they could spend some of their younger years with hands on experience that will actually help them later in life, and the money they would make would probably be more than enough motivation to want to learn more about his/her job.