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Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips

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HeavyTank
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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 01:53 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 11:45 AM, nosesocks wrote:
At 5/13/10 10:04 AM, queenofbabes wrote: CCB did not have timer issues afaik. Then again, I had no trouble with Time Fcuk voting medals.
CCB time records were what was used as evidence against Phreneticus, in addition to other factors.

Ohh...looks like we're going to have a trial pretty soon :D

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 03:00 PM Reply

and shall 3+ pages of "OMFG joo h4xx3ed lol!" commence.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 03:50 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 09:52 AM, chris-marks wrote:
At 5/13/10 08:24 AM, nosesocks wrote:
At 5/12/10 07:36 PM, WonderTheHedgehog wrote: How did you beat the entire easy mode of Ching Chong Beautiful THAT fast, Mr-Contradiction?!
I'm not letting this question go. It's staying at the top of this thread.
I'll be honest, I was kind of suspicious just based on how fast he's getting medal points. But then he comes in and posts about how he's spending hours and hours trying to get the Obsessed medal in Time Fcuk, and I'm not sure any more. Has CCB ever had known timer issues?

Figured this would come up.

If you could look at the dates that I got the medals, and the date that that run occurred, you will see that that 12 seconds or whatever happened about 3 months ago (or more?). I didn't have the medal then. I got all the medals a week ago.

That was some glitch or something, but I most certainly didn't beat Easy, let alone get the medal then. At that time I was using IE, which Ching Chong is not entirely compatible with. I do remember that it was when NG was just implementing their own high score system as opposed to using Mochi or w/e, and it was still stuttering once and a while.

If you care that much, find out how to determine the exact date of medals being obtained, and then look at the date that I "made" that 12 second run, compare, evaluate, conclude.

I don't even think my latest runs made it to the high score list...

Internets for recognizing and understanding the low res reference below.

Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:11 PM Reply

At 5/12/10 03:40 PM, chris-marks wrote:
At 5/12/10 03:30 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
At 5/12/10 02:52 PM, HeavyTank wrote: Also, sorry if I can't help 'bout F8, but I really can't recall my exact score :(
Just did 3 playthroughs on Fig. 8, 1,200,000+ points, 1,400,000+ points and 1,500,000+ points... No medal.
Do two more. Before I commit lots of time to it, I'm curious if having 5 scores over 1m is the key.

Completed all 5 scores over 1mill, no medal.

And you folks are calling me to task over this system... I did a Google search and found this regarding Fig. 8... The very last post was the most intriguing imo. Looks to me like the only way to get Professional, unless you put it all off to glitches.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:15 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 04:11 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
At 5/12/10 03:40 PM, chris-marks wrote:
At 5/12/10 03:30 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
At 5/12/10 02:52 PM, HeavyTank wrote: Also, sorry if I can't help 'bout F8, but I really can't recall my exact score :(
Just did 3 playthroughs on Fig. 8, 1,200,000+ points, 1,400,000+ points and 1,500,000+ points... No medal.
Do two more. Before I commit lots of time to it, I'm curious if having 5 scores over 1m is the key.
Completed all 5 scores over 1mill, no medal.

And you folks are calling me to task over this system... I did a Google search and found this regarding Fig. 8... The very last post was the most intriguing imo. Looks to me like the only way to get Professional, unless you put it all off to glitches.

Since this has come up before, I feel the need to reiterate: a visit to that site does not automatically a cheater make. Yes you need an account there to read the content, but it's not like having an account necessarily means you use it to cheat. So before anyone says anything, the fact that he was able to read that thread does not automatically convict him.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:22 PM Reply

Regarding the perfectionist medal in fig 8, here's a video of one person actually getting it at the end. Hmmm... Maybe you have to have a 0 at the end of the million...

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:24 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 04:22 PM, EdyKel wrote: Regarding the perfectionist medal in fig 8, here's a video of one person actually getting it at the end. Hmmm... Maybe you have to have a 0 at the end of the million...

Wrong medal. Perfectionist is for finishing the game without crashing. Professional is the broken one, for getting a score over 1 million.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:25 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 04:22 PM, EdyKel wrote: Regarding the perfectionist medal in fig 8, here's a video of one person actually getting it at the end. Hmmm... Maybe you have to have a 0 at the end of the million...

Oops, my bad. Disregard. I got the two mixed up.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:43 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 04:15 PM, chris-marks wrote:
Since this has come up before, I feel the need to reiterate: a visit to that site does not automatically a cheater make. Yes you need an account there to read the content, but it's not like having an account necessarily means you use it to cheat. So before anyone says anything, the fact that he was able to read that thread does not automatically convict him.

Yeah I made an account to see it, figured the first result would be entertaining in the least.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 04:48 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 03:50 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: If you could look at the dates that I got the medals, and the date that that run occurred, you will see that that 12 seconds or whatever happened about 3 months ago (or more?). I didn't have the medal then. I got all the medals a week ago.

No way to tell exactly when either was attained, but I can confirm that the 18 second run happened more than a month ago.

Also I just found out that I need to move my .sol for that game from my work computer to my home machine. Turns out I never finished the game on my home computer, so almost all the in-game stuff isn't activated; I only beat it at work. That kind of caught me off-guard when I saw it.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 05:11 PM Reply

Hehe... Then we can get into the nature of hacking. Is copying the save file from one computer to another hacking? :P I hate philosophy.

Well I'm all excited for a lively debate tonight... I'll leave this up while I play some PVKII and check back occasionally.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 05:15 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 05:11 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Hehe... Then we can get into the nature of hacking. Is copying the save file from one computer to another hacking? :P I hate philosophy.

Well I'm all excited for a lively debate tonight... I'll leave this up while I play some PVKII and check back occasionally.

The rule of thumb we tend to go by here is that you're not allowed to modify the game in any way, and you have to do everything yourself. So copying my own .sol file from one machine to another is fine, but copying someone else's .sol file isn't, nor is some kind of deal like "I'll get you medals in game A if you get me medals in game B".


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 05:20 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 05:15 PM, chris-marks wrote: The rule of thumb we tend to go by here is that you're not allowed to modify the game in any way, and you have to do everything yourself. So copying my own .sol file from one machine to another is fine, but copying someone else's .sol file isn't, nor is some kind of deal like "I'll get you medals in game A if you get me medals in game B".

Mmm, honesty, integrity and fairness, this is starting to sound like my swearing in as an engineer. Simply because no one else is going to, I'll be the supporter of hacking for the duration of this conversation.

Most people here would agree that hacking is wrong. I'd love it if everyone who read this could put a little detail into that belief for me. For example: Hacking is wrong because it kills children in Africa.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 05:26 PM Reply

Hacking is wrong because it skews things. There's this 100 point medal in Alkie Kong 2 called Drunken Deity, which you get for finishing the game in hard mode without dying. There is only the one way to get it, and it's fucking insane. If a bunch of people show up who've gotten the medal by hacking, then the medal is devalued. The medals are meant to indicate that you have skill in playing the game, not in hacking it.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 06:19 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 05:11 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Hehe... Then we can get into the nature of hacking. Is copying the save file from one computer to another hacking? :P I hate philosophy.

No, of course not..only tampering with it would be considered "cheating" (still not technically hacking though).


Well I'm all excited for a lively debate tonight... I'll leave this up while I play some PVKII and check back occasionally.

You play PVK2?I freaking love that game...

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 06:40 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 05:26 PM, chris-marks wrote: Hacking is wrong because it skews things. There's this 100 point medal in Alkie Kong 2 called Drunken Deity, which you get for finishing the game in hard mode without dying. There is only the one way to get it, and it's fucking insane. If a bunch of people show up who've gotten the medal by hacking, then the medal is devalued. The medals are meant to indicate that you have skill in playing the game, not in hacking it.

The medal may be devalued, but it's not unfair. There is no retarding factor on hacking, everyone can do it. Hmm... I'd rather not get into the whole "achievement syndrome" of gaming nowadays... oh well, here goes a wall of text.

If there are status symbols in existence (medals, unlockable items, etc.) people will want them. To get them, there are always loopholes in the system. If you need to complete the game 10 times for a medal, why not just reload from a save directly before the final boss 9 times. These sort of things flow logically from a result based analysis.

If people want "Drunken Deity" and do not want to play the game, they could hack it. Does this diminish the medal for those people who got it legitimately? Only if they are in it for the points. If all of the medal games on Newgrounds did not have points, would people try as hard to get them? Without a ranking system, are achievements fruitful?

Humans (or what Western culture has made of us) have an unerring need to progress, to be better than we were before. In many cases the desire is to be better than our peers. Medals are a good way to describe this. But if the medals have an arbitrary point system attached to them, a system of currency, then new meaning comes into effect. "I have more XFSR than you, therefore I am better". That is not necessarily true though. If a person completed "Drunken Deity" for 100 points, and another person completed all of Tax Time for 85 points, are they nearly on par for skill? Not in the least. The system of currency has failed to properly attach value to the medals. "But this medal is X points so this one should be too". Tradition is never an excuse for anything. Statistics can be made to display whatever is desired.

So the representative currency of Points is inherently flawed. If the medals were attached to games with no points, there would be little reason to hack. Without the currency, there is no comparison between "I completed this medal legitimately" and "I hacked this medal". The personal achievement is nothing if it is hacked. Only when you blur the image to say, I got 100 points from this game or I hacked 100 points from this game, does hacking become worthwhile. Only when a system of currency becomes involved, does cheating the system make sense. Conversely, when a system exists to be cheated, it will be. Statistically speaking (lying), this is true.

Where do you go from here? Do you put hours of time into a task with minimal relative reward? Or do you put minimal time into a task for minimal reward? Efficiency is the sibling to progress; why spend more if the task can be done faster using another method? For hackers, that method is plain to see.

The most common rebuttal to the question, "Why do you hack?" is, "Why don't you?". Why perpetuate a broken system? Tradition? Or do you desire to maintain a certain set of morals for yourself?

Maintaining those morals is all well and good, for yourself. But at the point that you try to enforce those morals upon others, you are committing a terrible crime in denying their own choice. In the end, the medal is only meaningful to you. Hackers can be happy with their irrelevant currency, and legitimate players can be happy that they were skilled enough at the game to beat it. As stated earlier, in this instance there is no unfairness involved. Everyone has access to hacking capabilities thanks to the internet. It's only when you mix morals and the desire for currency that you run into a problem. Real world scenarios most often err on the side of morality, but does that apply to virtual goals in virtual worlds? Is anyone being harmed by hacking flash games?

No, the argument against hacking is based solely on greed. I'll go through a biased little exersice to bring about a controversial conclusion now.

Suddenly, everyone has the same 100 points that I do, and thus those points are worthless to me now. Forget that I worked so hard to complete this and can rest assured that I have verifiably beat this game, the points say that I am only average.
I don't want to participate in the cheating based on my morals.
I can't obtain currency as fast or in as large a magnitude as the cheaters, yet I desire the same amount or more currency than they have to validate my life.
Solution? I will instead attempt to defame and debauch their reputations, or attack them in some other way. I shall instigate laws and an enforcing authority to segregate them from my "cheat free" society. I will try to seal off all possible routes for hacking, to make it so that I can still be better than everyone, while maintaining my sense of dignity.

I will limit the possibilities in an attempt to leave only my path as the one remaining.

Is this not a clear example of fascism?

Not all of this has come to pass on Newgrounds, but it is the trends and the willful ignorance of some people that may end up causing something like this to occur. Certain flash games already come equipped with anti-hacking programs. All because some point grubbing kids decided to get angry. Shall we ask the governmentto make hacking illegal?

Alright I'm done ranting for now... I should get a new hobby now that I've effectively beaten NG's collective of medals... Too much time sitting around thinking about how everything is broken. It must be difficult to tell that my ideal world is an anarcho-capitalist society where the only defining law is that you may not violate anyone's free will.

tl;dr Bring on WW3 so we can maybe get a good start this time.

Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 07:18 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
The medal may be devalued, but it's not unfair. There is no retarding factor on hacking, everyone can do it. Hmm... I'd rather not get into the whole "achievement syndrome" of gaming nowadays... oh well, here goes a wall of text.

Hey, everyone can walk on the street and randmoly start killing people with a big knife he got from his home, so it's OK to do it, right?
That's pretty much your logic.


If there are status symbols in existence (medals, unlockable items, etc.) people will want them. To get them, there are always loopholes in the system. If you need to complete the game 10 times for a medal, why not just reload from a save directly before the final boss 9 times. These sort of things flow logically from a result based analysis.

If people want "Drunken Deity" and do not want to play the game

Then they leave the game and don't get the medal.

WALL OF TEXT

The fuck?You know, defending medal hacking is definitely not helping you here...also, it seriously doesn't make any sense.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 09:03 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 07:18 PM, HeavyTank wrote:
At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
The medal may be devalued, but it's not unfair. There is no retarding factor on hacking, everyone can do it. Hmm... I'd rather not get into the whole "achievement syndrome" of gaming nowadays... oh well, here goes a wall of text.
Hey, everyone can walk on the street and randmoly start killing people with a big knife he got from his home, so it's OK to do it, right?
That's pretty much your logic.

Obviously didn't read the post. I said that this argument doesn't hold in most non-virtual situations. Usually due to rape and murder.


If there are status symbols in existence (medals, unlockable items, etc.) people will want them. To get them, there are always loopholes in the system. If you need to complete the game 10 times for a medal, why not just reload from a save directly before the final boss 9 times. These sort of things flow logically from a result based analysis.

If people want "Drunken Deity" and do not want to play the game
Then they leave the game and don't get the medal.

Also an option. People are free to choose it if they so decide.


WALL OF TEXT
The fuck?You know, defending medal hacking is definitely not helping you here...also, it seriously doesn't make any sense.

This is a philosophical discussion... Really, please read and understand what I said alright? First paragraph: I will take the side of hackers for conversation sake.

Oh boy do I love little kids. Oh boy I do oh boy.

My post is mostly about defending choice and the freedom to choose. I don't personally care if people hack. It in no way impacts my life. I don't want to reiterate all of my topics again, but I will say: Please read the post if you are going to comment.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 09:04 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 09:03 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Obviously didn't read the post. I said that this argument doesn't hold in most non-virtual situations. Usually due to rape and murder.

And by first paragraph I mean't the first post. Two up from the large one.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 09:50 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 09:03 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Also an option. People are free to choose it if they so decide.

Dude, just knock it off with all that rhetoric for hacking, alright. It's not making you look any less guilty in the eyes of people who spent a lot time earning their medals legitimately.

If you want to hack a game, that's fine, you have the right to do so. Just don't pretend you earned anything you get from them.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 13th, 2010 @ 11:27 PM Reply

At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Is this not a clear example of fascism?

Actually it's an example of law and order. This is unfair, so it is against the rules.

Also, medal points aren't currency. You can't trade them, you can't spend them, and once you have them you can't lose them unless a mod or staff member removes them. They are nothing more than bragging rights, essentially. So everything you said that relies on medal points being currency is fallacious, at best.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 12:42 AM Reply

At 5/13/10 11:27 PM, chris-marks wrote:
At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Is this not a clear example of fascism?
Actually it's an example of law and order. This is unfair, so it is against the rules.

Also, medal points aren't currency. You can't trade them, you can't spend them, and once you have them you can't lose them unless a mod or staff member removes them. They are nothing more than bragging rights, essentially. So everything you said that relies on medal points being currency is fallacious, at best.

Just a note, read up on what fascism is. Here's the dictionary definition: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.

The dictator doesn't have to be one person, it can be a collective, or a government if you will. That is why you will commonly hear someone who is being censored calling the censors "Nazis". Hitler was elected on his campaign platform of enforcing order and removing opposition to the true German heritage. Fascism is simply extreme order. Laws taken to the point where they govern things that they do not need to govern.

And no, currency does not have to be defined as a tradeable item... It is a monetary value associated to an item. This LOAF OF BREAD is worth 6 DOLLARS. That is currency. Replacing actual things with a make believe system of numeracy.

Why do the points even matter if the medals are bragging rights? Why is there a ranking system at all? There certainly isn't an officially implemented one. Perhaps the good folks who administrate this site thought ahead and did not want to see this type of competitive attitude come about. Or they didn't want to spend the time, whichever you find more likely.

But I am off to bed. As for anything else, it should be clear by now that I don't care whether or not you consider me a hacker. While I myself do not hack, I recognize the reasons behind hacking. I play games for entertainment. Medals are shiny baubles to be sought after when playing these games. Whether or not you play for medals, you should in no way care about what others are doing. Achievements are personal by nature... If someone wants to press a button and achieve everything they can, how does it impact you or me?

If you want to remove me from your rankings list, be my guest. I never asked to be included on it in the first place. I only joined NG logs to see the fancy chart extrapolations. Everyone can enjoy their free +1 rank next week, courtesy of me.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 01:15 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 12:42 AM, Mr-Contradiction wrote:
At 5/13/10 11:27 PM, chris-marks wrote:
At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Is this not a clear example of fascism?
Actually it's an example of law and order. This is unfair, so it is against the rules.

Also, medal points aren't currency. You can't trade them, you can't spend them, and once you have them you can't lose them unless a mod or staff member removes them. They are nothing more than bragging rights, essentially. So everything you said that relies on medal points being currency is fallacious, at best.
Just a note, read up on what fascism is. Here's the dictionary definition: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.

Then your comparison fails because we're all completely powerless to actually stop hacking from occurring. All we can do is shun people who do, and exclude them from our elitist little list we keep.

And no, currency does not have to be defined as a tradeable item... It is a monetary value associated to an item. This LOAF OF BREAD is worth 6 DOLLARS. That is currency. Replacing actual things with a make believe system of numeracy.

You're fond of dictionary definitions: "something that is used as a medium of exchange; money." So yes, it does have to be definited as a tradeable item, because that's the nature of exchange. The nature of money is that you can spend it to get things, and you can't spend medal points. So once again your argument fails due to failing to meet the definitions of words.

Why do the points even matter if the medals are bragging rights? Why is there a ranking system at all? There certainly isn't an officially implemented one. Perhaps the good folks who administrate this site thought ahead and did not want to see this type of competitive attitude come about. Or they didn't want to spend the time, whichever you find more likely.

Pride. That's all.

But I am off to bed. As for anything else, it should be clear by now that I don't care whether or not you consider me a hacker. While I myself do not hack, I recognize the reasons behind hacking. I play games for entertainment. Medals are shiny baubles to be sought after when playing these games. Whether or not you play for medals, you should in no way care about what others are doing. Achievements are personal by nature... If someone wants to press a button and achieve everything they can, how does it impact you or me?

Level playing fields are important.

If you want to remove me from your rankings list, be my guest. I never asked to be included on it in the first place. I only joined NG logs to see the fancy chart extrapolations. Everyone can enjoy their free +1 rank next week, courtesy of me.

Meh.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 01:25 AM Reply

I somehow doubt your post is "just for the sake of discussion." Nice job with the "you can't fire me, I quit" charade though.

Anyways your whole argument is moot. First off medals aren't really a currency. A monetary value associated with an item is not a currency, it is a price. If you trade bread for corn then you are participating in a barter economy as opposed to an exchange economy. To be a currency something has to be a median of exchange (i.e. it has to be tradable) that is widely/universally accepted (you can't go to the grocery store and give them a loaf of bread for some milk) and have a common value. This is just the definition. As per your argument, my 100 point medals has no value to you since I can't give it to you.

Anyways, this isn't a competition to prove you're better than other people, it's a community that shares a common interest. Why do you think there's so many guides and walkthroughs written by people on the medal list; why do you think HOS and Spiffy update a list even though they aren't on it? To highlight all the people "better" than them? That's ridiculous. In no way does other people getting a 100 point medal make it worthless to me, since I'm not doing it to be better than them. I'm happy when other people earn hard medals.

The problem with hackers is that they're typically only interested in saying "look at my points, I'm better than you." This destroys the community and makes it less fun when people who aren't even playing the games try to turn collaboration into competition. The points make it a bit more fun since it's easier to evaluate progress, but honestly the points aren't the point, so to say.

The correct comparison for medals would be tests. You're arguing says that, absent your score affect the grade of others - i.e. a curve, people should be allowed to cheat if they want to. And when a teacher gives a cheater a bad grade, it's because they're being a fascist, and also - they're preventing efficiency and progress. The problem you miss in both cases is that the points aren't the goal. In the case of tests it's learning the material and in the case of medal games - achieving some predefined goal (essentially solving a problem). I think you can agree that if we let everybody cheat on tests that tests become worthless measures of progress, and similarly if everybody hacks medals. The first would destroy the education system and the second would destory the medal community here. Therefore the optimal response of both communities is to try and remove the incentives for cheating. You do this by giving people F's if they cheat, and by taking away their medals if they hack.

When thinking of our community imagine a book club. They work best when everybody reads the book - or is at least is forthcoming if they didn't. It's hard to have discussions about experiences with people that don't share those experiences. That's why hackers destroy the community. They make it about saying "I read the book" rather than about discussing and understanding the book. Also, hackers are usually people who just want to say "HAHA I'm better than you!" Which makes the experience less fun for everybody else.

You seem to have a very flawed understanding of facism (yes, a dictator has to be one person. That's the dictionary definition.) and discrimination. The characterizing feature of a dictatorship is not what the rules are, or that there are rules, it's how those rules are established. Calling somebody a Nazi is meant as an insult, not as an accurate classification- so that's not justification of your definition. This community is a democracy or republic if anything. We decide together on the rules of the medal ranking list. There is no a priori discrimination against people who like to hack (they are free to participate if they refrain from their desires) so there is nothing unjust about not allowing hacking. Everybody is given the same opportunity and rules, and you can choose to participate or not.

It's like if everybody is playing monopoly, it's not discrimination to not let you steal money from the bank - nobody is allowed to do it. Those are the rules of the game and it's not discrimination to then enforce those rules. If you don't agree by the rules then you don't play. The rules themselves are somewhat arbitrary, so you're flawed in challenging us to attach a moral justification to them. If you want to play monopoly where stealing from the bank is allowed - that's fine, but don't expect me to play with you.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter why hacking isn't allowed. You are informed ahead of the time that hacking medals is not allowed and you are aware of the consequences of hacking. Although not without motivation (my above arguments), I agree with you that they are somewhat arbitrary and certainly they aren't firmly grounded in some concept of morality. However these are are the rules that most people here want to play by (Newgrounds, the flash game developers, the medal community), so that's how we're going to play. If you have a problem with that - fine, don't play with us. Make your own site, make your own games, and allow hacking as much as you wish. I doubt any of us would have any problem with that. However you can't stay here and expect us to change the rules to suit you and don't be surprised when we enforce the rules we have.

Also, although unrelated, tradition can be justification for doing something. For example red=stop, green=go on stop lights. It's not the only thing that matters, but tradition is certainly something that should be taken into consideration.

Anyways, since you're leaving anyways why don't you just end this banter and stop clogging up our thread with your attempt at justifying hacking. I don't care enough to have a debate over the internet for the sake of debate, so I'm done now. I gave you our perspective, and if you don't like it fine. If it makes you feel better to call us fascists than so be it. I assure you it doesn't hurt my feelings coming from you. Now hopefully we can get back to discussing medals - which is the point of this thread. If you want to continue this debate how about you create a thread in the politics forum and leave us alone.

"it should be clear by now that I don't care whether or not you consider me a hacker"
Nothing else has convinced me more that you hacked. If you honestly earned everything legitimately then I'm shocked that you supposedly don't care. Either way if you don't care then you won't be a large loss to the community so it's fine for both of us. You can go on not caring about us and we can go on not caring about you. Win-win.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 01:42 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 01:25 AM, greeneggs4spam wrote: Calling somebody a Nazi is meant as an insult, not as an accurate classification- so that's not justification of your definition.

Also, Godwin.

Also also, still waiting to hear back from fucrate about the Professional medal in Fig. 8. Maybe I should send a message to aeiowu... I think I'll do that.


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 02:17 AM Reply

Eh, I was going to post a lengthy reply to Mr.C, but I think you guys summed it up pretty readily. I would just like to add:

Hacking is wrong at its basest form because it's against the rules. ie. the terms of use:

3. Website Access

1. Newgrounds hereby grants you permission to use the Website as set forth in this Terms of Service, provided that: (i) unless you are the content's original creator, you will not copy or distribute any part of the Website in any medium without Newgrounds's prior written authorization; (ii) you will not alter or modify any part of the Website other than as may be reasonably necessary to use the Website for its intended purpose;

At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Alright I'm done ranting for now... I should get a new hobby now that I've effectively beaten NG's collective of medals... Too much time sitting around thinking about how everything is broken. It must be difficult to tell that my ideal world is an anarcho-capitalist society where the only defining law is that you may not violate anyone's free will.

So basically you want a world where people do what they feel. Ever watch the The Simpsons Do What You Feel? Get out of Canada please and resign as an engineer since you obviously do not hold the oath of an engineer in high regard.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 03:02 AM Reply

Ahh philosophical discussions. Interesting. You're absolutely right, Mr-Contradiction. Indeed we are a fascist and exclusive community over here. Of course, I'm just talking about ideology, we don't literally go around burning down the houses of hackers. We have set up our own "community" over here in this thread as well as the medal rank thread, and each and every one of us are medal whores, spending time at games achieving these little icons that are worth no more than bragging rights.

Why do points matter to us? Well, medal points are just a convenient collective way of looking at your medal achievements. Now clearly I can't speak for everyone, since different people have different motivations. My motivation from the start was the achieve all the medals (legitimately). Thus when I first joined this thread and learnt of the medal rankings, I had my sights on the top guys since they had ALL the medals. Since then, those few people have been identified as hackers and removed, but little has changed for me. I still want all medals, and clearly if you have all medals you'll be at the top.

Yes, having more medals/points is a cheap way of saying "Hah! I'm better than you." And people here subscribe to this line of thought because we are sad, deprived people with nothing better to do and have nothing else in our lives to validate our worth. (Well I'm exaggerating of course....) But yet the (usually) unspoken agreement among people here is honesty and integrity. We want fair competition and a fair platform with which to compare amongst ourselves. We take the "moral high ground" against hackers and are generally unashamed of it. We think cheating is wrong simply because it sidesteps the rules and fair platform we have established here within our little community here.

To be honest, I dislike "free will" arguments. In society (well, depending on where you are on this planet, I guess), exercising free will is generally tolerated unless it violates that of other people. If you do so, this is generally considered a crime and the criminal is excluded/segregated from society. Just like how we jail murderers and rapists. Just like how we deport foreign nationals whom we deem unworthy of staying in our country for whatever reason. In our case, we remove you from our little ranking system. (Now, by no means am I suggesting that it takes little effort to compile the list weekly and discrediting the work) I'm trying to say that this isn't as shameful as what your post might have suggested to some people; it's simply the way the world works.

Sure it is your "free will" to hang out else in NG and hack all you want. Clearly if I were a programmer I wouldn't think it "wrong" to test my hacking skills against the NG medal system. As a gamer I don't think it's wrong too; it's a perfectly legitimate motivation. However if a hacker were to come amongst us and say "hey look, I have more medals than you, you n00b" or simply try to join our "fair" (by our definition) platform without playing "fair", begone with you.

You say greed is our motivation in excluding hackers, and that they don't harm anything or anyone. Well, yes, greed is a reason. I don't take it as an insult, and I don't think any of you should. After all, greed underlies most of our actions as human beings. Nothing is harmed but our ego of being "better" than everyone in this little world of medal points. At the same time I do think that establishing a platform for fair competition is a pretty admirable thing to do, and something I hope our community will continue doing. The spirit of fair competition and fair play is the basic premise behind most sports, and I suppose that is kinda what medal earning has evolved to (at least over here)

In short, I am only against hacking if you hacked but come over here and pretend that you didn't. Free will arguments aside, I think blatant lying and deception is morally wrong by most people's books. Otherwise, we welcome you to compete fairly against the rest of us.

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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 04:39 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 02:17 AM, Wylo wrote: Eh, I was going to post a lengthy reply to Mr.C, but I think you guys summed it up pretty readily. I would just like to add:

Hacking is wrong at its basest form because it's against the rules. ie. the terms of use:

3. Website Access

1. Newgrounds hereby grants you permission to use the Website as set forth in this Terms of Service, provided that: (i) unless you are the content's original creator, you will not copy or distribute any part of the Website in any medium without Newgrounds's prior written authorization; (ii) you will not alter or modify any part of the Website other than as may be reasonably necessary to use the Website for its intended purpose;

At 5/13/10 06:40 PM, Mr-Contradiction wrote: Alright I'm done ranting for now... I should get a new hobby now that I've effectively beaten NG's collective of medals... Too much time sitting around thinking about how everything is broken. It must be difficult to tell that my ideal world is an anarcho-capitalist society where the only defining law is that you may not violate anyone's free will.
So basically you want a world where people do what they feel. Ever watch the The Simpsons Do What You Feel? Get out of Canada please and resign as an engineer since you obviously do not hold the oath of an engineer in high regard.

Well it turns out there was some arson planned for this evening and I was not privy to prior notice.

I'm glad that a few people managed to rebut my arguments in some way shape or form. I would like to inform everyone that this was done for the sake of debate. As I stated earlier, I wanted to take the side of hackers since no one else would. Wylo, I am sincerely disappointed that you would attack a brother when he was simply arguing a topic for the sake of debate. It is not about "doing what you feel". It is about doing what you feel, without violating anyone else's free will. If I feel like pissing into a gutter on the street I can't do that if it violates someone else's desire not to have to see it. As a real world, this would be impossible, because there will always be people trying to take advantage of others against their will. Thus it is a utopia, unattainable to us. My utopia is where everyone knows what to do, without having to be told by a law or a rule.

The point that most people seem to be getting caught on is "unfairness". Since hacking is presumably available to everyone (unless the programs are purchased) the sense of unfairness is only perceived. It is moral unwillingness that is causing a divide between the positions.

As with most debates there are comments on definitions of words; please note that I never said "The first definition from Merriam Webster". English is a multi faceted language where words have several meanings. Currency can be an untraded object.

As for the NG terms of service. It says not to (i) reproduce, distribute or effectively steal hosted content, or (ii) alter the website in any way/use it for its intended purpose. The point I think you believe hacking falls under is "intended purpose" correct? This would be remarkably difficult to argue in a court, but I agree that most authors would not intend for their submissions to be hacked. Hacking would most likely violate that ToS statement. Since I now know of an established rule to be broken by hacking, I really can't argue that it is allowable. The spirit of the freedom to choose should not be dismissed though...

Interesting historical fact: Computers were invented thanks to the code-breaking (re: hacking) attempts during the 2nd World War on Nazi communications. Large banks of mechanical tabulation devices were constructed to assist the countless calculations required to break the codes. If the world had outlawed "hacking", (most likely some lawyers would have found away around the definition of the word...) would computers exist now as they do now? Denying possibilities leads to stagnation. Would you rather attempt the risk versus reward, or be guaranteed the compromise? Personal choice, and I am glad that there exist places around the world that will allow it.

At 5/14/10 01:15 AM, chris-marks wrote: Then your comparison fails because we're all completely powerless to actually stop hacking from occurring. All we can do is shun people who do, and exclude them from our elitist little list we keep.

Exactly... Enforcing control upon them. Since hackers most likely simply desire to be high on your list (since there is no other ranking system), you are enforcing a control to oppress that action. I am not accusing anti-hackers of hating Jews, I am looking into the high levels of regimentation and the resultant stagnation.

Hypothesis: Perhaps some of those banned hackers stop playing on Newgrounds and go to Kongregate, Newgrounds has lost that contribution to the site. Not that it matters on the internet... And your rebbutal to that comment would be "We don't want them here". What if Mindchamber hacks to get medals? Why should you care???

Level playing fields are important.

I would like for you to explain this. You are free to hack. How is the playing field not level?

Another post to follow once the double post lock is clear...


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 04:48 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 01:25 AM, greeneggs4spam wrote: I somehow doubt your post is "just for the sake of discussion." Nice job with the "you can't fire me, I quit" charade though.

I didn't say I "quit". If you as a collective do not want me to participate in your ranking system, I am fine with that. Not sure why you think I am sincere in my support of hacking.

As per your argument, my 100 point medals has no value to you since I can't give it to you.

Exactly. Medals have no value. They are not a thing to be "ranked" or traded. They are personal achievements for personal gratification. The attachment of points to them, what makes them rankable, is what I was attacking when I was talking about currency.

Anyways, this isn't a competition to prove you're better than other people, it's a community that shares a common interest. Why do you think there's so many guides and walkthroughs written by people on the medal list; why do you think HOS and Spiffy update a list even though they aren't on it? To highlight all the people "better" than them? That's ridiculous. In no way does other people getting a 100 point medal make it worthless to me, since I'm not doing it to be better than them. I'm happy when other people earn hard medals.

That's good for you. I personally don't care if JimmyTwoBits got eight billion points this week, or if he wrote a walkthrough for Button Clicker 17: The Buttoning.

The problem with hackers is that they're typically only interested in saying "look at my points, I'm better than you." This destroys the community and makes it less fun when people who aren't even playing the games try to turn collaboration into competition. The points make it a bit more fun since it's easier to evaluate progress, but honestly the points aren't the point, so to say.

I agree here. Hackers are the ones who want to be at the top no matter what. They have to be the best, and so they take the shortest route. What I don't get is how it "destroys the community". If you truly don't care about being better than people, why do you care if there are eight hackers at the top of the list? Any system of ranking is by definition a competition. If it were truly a collaboration, everyone would have similar points. Don't get me started on communism.

The correct comparison for medals would be tests.

I stated several times that my arguments only held for virtual situations where there were no adverse effects other than your suggested "destruction of the community". Tests are used to evaluate knowledge so that the person can contribute to society properly.

They make it about saying "I read the book" rather than about discussing and understanding the book.

That is nice. Life is a journey and all that. Somewhere in my topic I said that hacking flows logically from results based analysis. Thus we are arguing based on different assumptions and no comparison can be made. I concur that hackers lose all sense of accomplishment (not that any really exists for them) since there is no journey involved in their gameplay. It took me hours of practice to get Ching Chong right, and I enjoyed getting to the top of Seppuku Tower. The hackers just teleport to the end, kill the boss, grab the loot, and sell it for 10 cents.

You seem to have a very flawed understanding of facism (yes, a dictator has to be one person. That's the dictionary definition.) and discrimination. The characterizing feature of a dictatorship is not what the rules are, or that there are rules, it's how those rules are established. Calling somebody a Nazi is meant as an insult, not as an accurate classification- so that's not justification of your definition. This community is a democracy or republic if anything. Everybody is given the same opportunity and rules, and you can choose to participate or not.

Oh boy did you misunderstand here... Sorry, lets define the fictitious fascist regime as an oligarchy then. And dictators have been elected as many times as they have lead coups... I am not associating fascism with dictatorships. I am associating fascism with excessive control of the populous. As for the Nazi bit, there may still be a few people who use it in the proper context instead of a blind insult as you have described. Precious few I admit, but that is the spirit it was intended.

I never once brought up justice in my arguments. Hacking is by definition an injustice. It is cheating the system. What I wanted to talk about was how IN THIS INSTANCE, hackers have no real impact on non hackers. Controlling the hackers is therefore a violation of their will with no supporting reason aside from "we don't like it".

It's like if everybody is playing monopoly, it's not discrimination to not let you steal money from the bank - nobody is allowed to do it.

When me and my friends play monopoly, if someone needs money badly, they can suggest that everyone gets a bonus from the bank. Effectively, everyone hacks. This is not unfair. If we don't like the rule where you can only buy houses when you have all of the property of that colour, we ignore it as a whole. Is this wrong to you?

Your collective has outlawed hacking. That is the agreed upon rule, and it should be enforced as such. Only allow verified legitimate players into your clique. I don't need to reiterate my comments on fascist levels of control here do I? If you and ten friends wanted to get together and rank each other competitively, go ahead.

The fact of the matter is that...

Well that was a long winded sentence. I as a person agree. But do you understand why people hack? This was what I was trying to get across. That in this system, it is realizable that people could hack, and that it would in no way affect you aside from bumping you from #1.

Also, although unrelated, tradition can be justification for doing something. For example red=stop, green=go on stop lights. It's not the only thing that matters, but tradition is certainly something that should be taken into consideration.

Never. Tradition is an excuse used too widely for its minuscule merit. Yes, red lights usually mean stop. Unless they mean duck and cover. Unless they mean stand still and be quiet until the lights are off. Unless they mean prepare to engage the enemy. Unless they have no meaning whatsoever, and are in place so that film doesn't develop too early. Tradition is used to validate the status quo. Good ol humanity resisting change.

I don't care enough to have a debate over the internet for the sake of debate, so I'm done now.

That is disappointing... Children these days are so flighty.

I gave you our perspective, and if you don't like it fine. If it makes you feel better to call us fascists than so be it. I assure you it doesn't hurt my feelings coming from you.

Sigh... You truly misunderstood SO MUCH of what I said. Evidently you let emotion rule a large portion of your argument. I am not calling you a fascist. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings with this debate.

"it should be clear by now that I don't care whether or not you consider me a hacker"
Nothing else has convinced me more that you hacked. If you honestly earned everything legitimately then I'm shocked that you supposedly don't care.

Well I am glad that you have come to a conclusion on something that is none of your business. My apathy is apparently very compelling. I have honestly earned everything but the one medal from Lastman legitimately, and I only followed the links in the author's comments there. Getting back home was surprisingly easy imo. And I honestly don't care that I have a large number beside my account on an internet site. It was fun (I even warmed up on the Doom Triple Pack after playing it for two days straight) to play the games, medals were simply an impetus to be good at them. Hell, I'm even kind of enjoying playing the first ten levels of Explore campaigns over and over trying to get that last medal.

Well this has been rousing, I haven't argued that extensively since that luncheon incident...


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Response to Newgrounds Medals - Games and Tips May. 14th, 2010 @ 04:58 AM Reply

What's with all the lengthy diatribes? Only douchebags hack. We all know they're douchebags, they know they're douchebags, and deep down inside their parents have probably come to the realization they they've spawned douchebags. The only real argument for hacking is "I don't care, lol" anything else is just playing devil's advocate for the sake of playing devil's advocate


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