Schools harmful to creativity?

[hansari]

I know this vid is a bit old, but I used the NG search feature and didn't find anything for it, so I'll assume its never been discussed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wb tY

The video argues that under the current system we have in schools, and the general disposition society puts up, creativity is being killed off along with the true "potential" that we possess.

I find myself agreeing with part of the points he makes. Particularly, that the hierarchy of education stresses certain topics as significantly less important or not important at all.

But I find myself a bit disappointed that he just throws the idea out there without much regard to offering some new suggestions for an education system (unless I missed something...)

So NG, whats your take?

[Korriken]

the school system is borked to say the least. the teaching of some classes, such as biology, is completely irrelevant to most careers. computer programmers have little use in knowing the innards of a frog. Math, Reading, some science, and social studies are musts, but the rest is debatable. Math is used for everything from shopping to welding, to building missiles. If you can't read, you can't function in society. Some science is necessary, knowing how things like electricity works is necessary for many careers and for every day safety. You should know how your society functions if you are to be part of it. classes such as Biology are good if you're going to be working with living beings, but is completely useless for most careers. It should be an elective, but not a required class.

boring and useless classes stifle interest in school and degrades the experience. language classes should stress the creative use of language, rather than dull drills and quizzes. drills and quizzes are fine, but let the kids be creative, make em write out a short story or poetry as well.

The school I went to had an art teacher who, while an interesting person, had little actual artistic skills. There was no music program other than the few chosen to play in the school's marching band. Other than that, school was incredibly boring and when confronted by a constant barrage of drudgery, its hard for people, especially children, to stay focused.

[Christopherr]

I suppose the issue isn't whether we're more creative or not nowadays. We can pretty much be sure that something is hampering creativity and individuality in the modern day.

As to whether schools are doing it, I'm not sure. I'd say that gifted programs do cultivate an ability to think analytically, but I don't think they're particularly helpful for creativity, whereas regular education is primarily fact-based. Given the very, very socialistic nature of the public education system, I'm not surprised that we cater to the lowest common denominator.

[blackattackbitch]

I've thought about things similar to this. School isn't right for some people, and some people aren't meant for careers focusing on mental acuity, although there's no doubt in my mind that those careers contribute to society the most. And the system is built to appreciate mental capacity more than artistic capacity.

And considering that it's already hard to make money in any artistic or performance-based career, I'd rather stick to this system rather than change the system and flood those fields with more artists and performers, unless we significantly change those systems too. I say this as a musician, as you can see from my sig.

At this point though, I could go either way. With my newest song in the works that threatens to reach big-budget hollywood quality, I could very well start making significant money in music licensing. But atmospheric science still has a tight grip on me. I figure I could very well do both no problem, but if I focus on music, I could make some very easy money, albeit not without significant risk.

But yeah, the guy does make some really good points. And some really bad ones. Since it was a 20 minute video though, I don't think I'll be returning to it to point out each and every point.

[blackattackbitch]

At 3/5/09 10:05 PM, Korriken wrote: interesting stuff

Yeah I agree with you for the most part, the biology part serves as an example of school merely preparing you for college as opposed to giving you necessary skills that you'll need in life. Math is extremely important, language is essential (and foreign languages can be useful), and a basic understanding of physics and chemistry does help. (there's a reason we don't mix chemicals, kids) But Bio? No. Health? Not a bit, considering what I learned in there. It's good to know a bit of history, but not very useful. That's something that really should be researched by one's self.

[Brick-top]

I'm subscribed to that channel!!

But anyway, my school sometimes offered some creativity. However I think instead of just trying to pump information into the mind teachers should challenge students minds. For example starting them off with solving simple problems and getting to perform in activities.

My favorite is construction with a limited number of resources.

You have sevreal sheets of paper, tape, and some thin straws. Then the teacher tells them to build a bridge.

It's obvious to us but a young student will become creative. Line the straws up, tape them together, wrap a sheet of paper around it. Cut the rest of the paper into strands, roll them tightly and attach to the structure. Whatever you have left you use for extra support.

It's so brilliant it just might cause insanity.

[Basement-Dungeon]

"Scientists at the University of Toronto have discovered that creative people possess little to no 'latent inhibition,' the unconscious ability to reject unimportant or irrelevant stimuli."
[source: University of Toronto].

Didn't ya get the memo? Creativity is a mental disorder now. ;)

[Al6200]

I think that he identifies the root cause of creativity incorrectly. He seems to act like someone can only be creative if they're a dancer, or a musician, or someone in a "soft" topic. But in reality, you can be creative in anything. Einstein was a creative physicist, Euler was a creative mathematician, and there are passionate programmers. In fact, it's sort of douchey to imply that people who deal with math and science are uncreative robots.

I personally discovered my passion for mathematics when I started writing code. Equations came to life, and I realized that mathematics was a creative field when I took differential equations. In fact, two things in mathematics strike me as having particular beauty:

Consider a rotation matrix. You wouldn't think that anything would satisfy the equation:

Ax = cx for x =/= 0.

But it turns out that the eigenvalues of a rotation matrix are imaginary! (If you haven't taken linear algebra, ignore this part).

Secondly, consider the Laplace transform L[ f(t) ] -> F(s)

L[1] = 1/s
L[t] = 1/s^2

Integrating on the t-domain is equivalent to multiplying by s on the s-domain. HARDCORE, I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!

[hansari]

At 3/5/09 09:46 PM, KemCab wrote: At least we're not teaching by rote memorization anymore. If you're even in the top 10% of your class you kinda have to do SOMETHING to get there, and it does what school is meant to do: teach people basic skills to function in society and/or prepare them for more specialized and intensive training.

I don't know. A lot of what I went through before entering college WAS rote memorization more or less (biological processes...vocab words...math formulas...). Take math for example. I imprinted the formula in my minds, but I didn't have much understanding for common applications. I aced my tests, but when some real world example would come up, I wouldn't know where to began until someone started writing it up on the blackboard. Then I'd just memorize "well the next time I see an instance that involves a fenced perimeter..."

At 3/5/09 09:46 PM, KemCab wrote: Your main focus should be deprived urban areas where people do really poorly, wherein you have to also improve socioeconomic conditions as well as teachers and teaching methods.

I'm the product of a child who moved around a lot when he was younger, so you don't have to tell me just how different an education you'd receive if you just moved two cites...hell, just two townships/counties over...

We've yet to create a literally equal education system throughout this country. But is the bar we're striving to reach at the right height?

At 3/5/09 10:05 PM, Korriken wrote: boring and useless classes stifle interest in school and degrades the experience. language classes should stress the creative use of language, rather than dull drills and quizzes. drills and quizzes are fine, but let the kids be creative, make em write out a short story or poetry as well.

Doing things out of the ordinary to make kids learn is what I'm hoping for.

I remember when I took Honors World History in highschool. You'd think it'd just be an accelerated history course, but the teacher really pushed us.

We had debates in class that reflected on what we just read. Sometimes those debates even took place on real world situations. It was a vivid atmosphere. An even though every essay I managed to write always came back with a "B," it was still my favorite class.

I took a lot away from that course, more than any other class until I entered College... but I can only imagine what University I'd have gone to had all my classes chosen to be "inspiring" and my report card had a lot less "A's" (cause those count for something, right..."

At 3/5/09 10:11 PM, blackattackbitch wrote: But yeah, the guy does make some really good points. And some really bad ones. Since it was a 20 minute video though, I don't think I'll be returning to it to point out each and every point.

I'm not asking for anyone to agree with the vid, just to give some of their own input. Happy you did.

But yea, I agree with the prior notion as I said about their being an obvious hierarchy and lack of creativity being implemented in our present education system. But I disagree with his beliefs that we live in a world that shuns creativity.

I believe the world we live in is a place that still appreciates innovation and greets it with open arms. Perhaps it doesn't cultivate it as well as it should though...

[hansari]

At 3/5/09 11:59 PM, Basement-Dungeon wrote: "Scientists at the University of Toronto have discovered that creative people possess little to no 'latent inhibition,' the unconscious ability to reject unimportant or irrelevant stimuli."
[source: University of Toronto].

Didn't ya get the memo? Creativity is a mental disorder now. ;)

Lol. I'd like to read that article :P

At 3/6/09 12:05 AM, Al6200 wrote: I think that he identifies the root cause of creativity incorrectly. He seems to act like someone can only be creative if they're a dancer, or a musician, or someone in a "soft" topic. But in reality, you can be creative in anything. Einstein was a creative physicist, Euler was a creative mathematician, and there are passionate programmers. In fact, it's sort of douchey to imply that people who deal with math and science are uncreative robots.

Well his forte is for the Arts, so yes, his speech is a bit biased, but I think he was speaking generally on education itself. (perhaps if there was more time...)

At 3/6/09 12:05 AM, Al6200 wrote: I personally discovered my passion for mathematics when I started writing code. Equations came to life, and I realized that mathematics was a creative field when I took differential equations.

Glad that you found a subject matter that gets you "hot and bothered", but the vast majority of us unfortunately don't. And I believe that stems from the fact we don't get the proper opportunity to get a real "taste" of each subject...

[Al6200]

At 3/6/09 12:18 AM, hansari wrote:

Well his forte is for the Arts, so yes, his speech is a bit biased, but I think he was speaking generally on education itself. (perhaps if there was more time...)

That's not uncommon though. A lot of people talk about arts as "creative" and math/science as implicitly "non-creative".

Glad that you found a subject matter that gets you "hot and bothered", but the vast majority of us unfortunately don't. And I believe that stems from the fact we don't get the proper opportunity to get a real "taste" of each subject...

I think that you'll find something. I didn't really get passionate until my junior year of high school.

And I do agree though that letting students approach topics with more depth and less breadth would be a good thing. It's hard to get passionate about calculus because it's so disconnected from reality. The equations you study in calculus (those which have exact solutions and only vary with respect to one variable) are a small and unsatisfying subset of all the differential equations that exist.

[Psycho-Medic]

Anyone who would consider Science & Math non-creative hasn't studied much Math & Science. Engineering is creative problem-solving with math and science, and is freaking awesome.

About school ruining peoples creativity... I'm not buying it. The reason that they make you take multiple classes so that you can find something you're interested in. Personally, Art and English, the classes generally considered 'creative' were pretty boring for me. Though I'm sure some other people liked it. Physics was awesome, and I took some engineering classes in high school for my free electives that were pretty good too. I'm currently studying Electrical Engineering. If I had just studied basic algebra and took the minimum 'required for every day life' classes I don't know what I'd be doing.

[thedo12]

At 3/6/09 12:05 AM, Al6200 wrote: I think that he identifies the root cause of creativity incorrectly. He seems to act like someone can only be creative if they're a dancer, or a musician, or someone in a "soft" topic. But in reality, you can be creative in anything. Einstein was a creative physicist, Euler was a creative mathematician, and there are passionate programmers. In fact, it's sort of douchey to imply that people who deal with math and science are uncreative robots.

I dont think he was implying that at all.

what I think he was implying is that creativity should be valued in school as much as math or literacy not instead of.

[Al6200]

At 3/6/09 10:51 AM, thedo12 wrote:

I dont think he was implying that at all.

what I think he was implying is that creativity should be valued in school as much as math or literacy not instead of.

That's sort of what I was trying to say. He acts like creativity is separate from math and science. In reality, if mathematics is engaged at a serious level, it is as creative as any play or short story.

I think the route to creativity is letting students pick concentrations and study those areas in depth. Sure, it will require students to do more work, but students will be willing to do more work if they're studying a topic that they love. Besides, even if a student does a complete 180 in terms of interests, it won't hurt them because they'll just have to be a little behind when they start college.

For example, I think that it is possible to teach linear algebra and differential equations to bright high schoolers. To someone who likes math they are much more interesting and compelling then calculus or trigonometry (the later of which is particularly mundane). Likewise a student who likes fixing cars should be able to get a detailed education in that area, and a student who likes music should be able to take advanced music classes.

[JackPhantasm]

The only thing school really teaches you is that if you really want to learn or get ahead you have to do it your damn self.

[DeIirium]

I thinkthat schools want children to get "real jobs", and not become artists or musicians.

[Korriken]

At 3/5/09 11:59 PM, Basement-Dungeon wrote:

Didn't ya get the memo? Creativity is a mental disorder now. ;)

That sounds about right. I wonder if my semi stunted creativity is because of me being able to detest stupidity, such as SpongeBob and these stupid radio commercials that can't just TELL you about the product. No, its gotta be poorly disguised as some sort of stupid fucking game show or talk show. Like the Netflix commercials. Because OF their commercials I will NEVER use their product. Same with BC powder. I also don't eat burger king anymore because of their stupid "burger shots" commercial where the stupid women adore a FUCKING HAMBURGER! Don't adore it you anorexic blonde, EAT THE DAMNED THING!

[blackattackbitch]

At 3/6/09 04:25 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: The only thing school really teaches you is that if you really want to learn or get ahead you have to do it your damn self.

What school did you go to? I definitely didn't learn that in school.

At 3/6/09 08:08 PM, Korriken wrote: That sounds about right. I wonder if my semi stunted creativity is because of me being able to detest stupidity, such as SpongeBob and these stupid radio commercials that can't just TELL you about the product. No, its gotta be poorly disguised as some sort of stupid fucking game show or talk show. Like the Netflix commercials. Because OF their commercials I will NEVER use their product. Same with BC powder. I also don't eat burger king anymore because of their stupid "burger shots" commercial where the stupid women adore a FUCKING HAMBURGER! Don't adore it you anorexic blonde, EAT THE DAMNED THING!

Wow, a lot of anger at society in that comment. STOP LISTENING TO FALLOUT BOY!!!!

At 3/6/09 07:08 PM, DeIirium wrote: I thinkthat schools want children to get "real jobs", and not become artists or musicians.

Go to my page, suck on my newest song, then say that again. And I want you to suck the juices out of it, clean it out!

But wait about 5 minutes after this post, since the newest newest song will be up by then, and it's pure sex.

But to expand on AI1600's point, there are ways to be creative and not be involved in the arts. A nuclear physicist who discovers a way to utilize nuclear fusion without using as much energy to start the fusion reaction as is extracted by the reaction is obviously much more creative than the guy who composes the greatest song in history. (yes, a shot at myself, but I'm realistic) And self-expression isn't the only form of creativity, as this guy seems to allude to.

[Korriken]

At 3/6/09 09:35 PM, blackattackbitch wrote:

At 3/6/09 08:08 PM, Korriken wrote: That sounds about right. I wonder if my semi stunted creativity is because of me being able to detest stupidity, such as SpongeBob and these stupid radio commercials that can't just TELL you about the product. No, its gotta be poorly disguised as some sort of stupid fucking game show or talk show. Like the Netflix commercials. Because OF their commercials I will NEVER use their product. Same with BC powder. I also don't eat burger king anymore because of their stupid "burger shots" commercial where the stupid women adore a FUCKING HAMBURGER! Don't adore it you anorexic blonde, EAT THE DAMNED THING!

Wow, a lot of anger at society in that comment. STOP LISTENING TO FALLOUT BOY!!!!

Nah, I just don't like dumb. If you want to tell me about your product, then tell me about your product. Don't try to "entertain" me with your commercial, unless you come up with something that's actually kind of entertaining. The old Geico commercials before the cavemen come to mind. Blew my mind the first time I saw one. After that, they ceased to be entertaining.

Doctor: You got congestive heart failure, your kidneys are giving out, your have a brain tumor, and we had to amputate your hands, but there is some good news.
Patient: What's that?
Doctor: I just saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico.

But the concept of a bunch of women adoring my hamburger? gimme a damn break....

[Shaggytheclown17]

I've heard that school isn't as much about learning than it is about being trained to obey people of authority, for example you get an assignment n you have so long to finish it n turn it in, the teacher doesn't care if you learned anything, he/she only cares about you turning it in on time. (But I'm sure not ALL teachers are like that, some may have a sort of value in what they pass on since the kids of today are the leader n workers of tomorrow) 8)

As for creativity, i never had much of a problem being creative in school, fuck I won first, second, best of show, n merit award in school art shows (not very important though lol)
I supose it would be cool if schools had more of a handle on learning and creativity, maybe do away with the tedious assignments n just have them report of what they've learned over a period of time, but whatevah.

[Dawnslayer]

I've heard the high school on Bainbridge Island, WA has the same floor plan as a prison in Chehalis...haven't verified it for myself yet, but I wouldn't be surprised. The high school in Bremerton actually LOOKS like a prison.

[blackattackbitch]

At 3/7/09 10:39 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: I've heard the high school on Bainbridge Island, WA has the same floor plan as a prison in Chehalis...haven't verified it for myself yet, but I wouldn't be surprised. The high school in Bremerton actually LOOKS like a prison.

I've been to a few schools that resembled and were operated like detention centers. My Middle and High Schools both had bars on the windows (until I moved to the suburbs, where I saw for myself how much better suburban schools are than city schools.

Those who pay attention can clearly see that city schools are focused more on exerting control than teaching the students. And even in that, they're failing miserably. I'll go even further; anyone who wasn't in any kind of AP class got shafted. Hard. This is deeply ingrained in the culture of both the educators and the students, and it's clear that both don't really give a shit about anything except getting out of there at the end of the day and not looking bad in the eyes of their own superiors.

I remember this one science teacher who would literally give a worksheet for the class to do every single day instead of teach anything. Then he would just sit at his desk and take the role of the security guard. It didn't even matter whether we did the work or not, just whether we were fucking around. Do you know what happened? His class went out of control and every single one of us ended up worse off. It was fucking pitiful.

In my other high school though, I remember one teacher who was simply amazing. She was tough, but she was undeniably a great teacher, who engaged us and engrossed us in the work. I learned much about Chemistry in that class, and I would be honored to have her on my payroll if I was a principle.

But this is actually kind of off-topic, considering that this is about schools killing creativity and not schools sucking in general. So in the name of the topic, I would have to say that the high school I went to did embrace creativity. Hell, I won't even lie, that school was amazing. One of the best public schools I've ever seen.