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Wow, that sucked... fucking Notepad. Let me re-post that in a format that doesn't completly suck:

At 2/23/09 01:10 PM, HandsomePete wrote: I guess you missed the part where it was stated how tiresome this argument was

Then why respond. I guess you missed the multiple times that I've politely explained to you that this is all just for mindless entertainment. It's a shame me and you can't just have a friendly discussion without you retaining water and shoving a truck load of sand in your vagina.

1) That's what I mean when I say that Hair Metal doesn't mean the same thing as Metal Metal.

Sure it does... why would hair metal not be considered a form of metal? That's like saying the Rammones aren't punk, they're more like pop rock simply because the standard of punk music has changed over the years. It was punk when they did it... they had a punk rock attitude and they did it to promote the punk rock way of life. Therefor, it's punk rock and it always will be regardless of how many Green Days and Pennywise show up to change the sound of Punk forever.

As far as Bon Jovi are concerned, the only reason they're not considered a metal band is because they progressivly changed to show that metal wasn't the genre they wanted to be associated with. If Slippery When Wet was the last album they ever made, they'd be a metal band... but because Bon Jovi himself, and the band, continued to slow and soften their sound it became blatenly obvious that there was nothing metal about Jovi from either a musical or a lifestlye point of view.

It became clear that Shot through the Heart was more like a trendy fluke then it was a heavy metal statement. Welcome to the Jungle wasn't a trendy cash in on a current radio trend. It was raw, and real... the fact that it sold was just a bonus.

Jovi never wanted to be the most extreme... he never wanted to be the fastest, loudest, or known for being a trouble maker or a party king. There was nothing metal about his attitude, and the majority of his songs and his entire career reflect that. Jovi, isn't metal.

GnR, on the other hand, showed great pride in being obnoxious drunken fucks who didn't care what anyone thought. They got pleasure out of making the front page based on fight fights, not their music. They never changed their look or their sound to cash in... even when love-ballads where hot, GnR never went that route. That's not to say that some of their songs didn't hit as ballads, but I think it's obvious that Sweet Child O Mine and "I'll be there for you" where written for two entirely diffrent reasons. Truth be told, some of the guys in GnR didn't even like Sweet Child O Mine, they just used it cause they needed a song for the album and Axel was fond of it. Had it been up to Slash, nobody would have ever heard that song... It wasn't until the 90s that songs like Don't Cry and November Rain would appear... long after the ballad trend was over.

Jovi was a trend follower. He played the middle road and wrote whatever was popular at the time. When Def Leppard where kicking ass, Jovi wrote "Shot through the heart". When "Every Rose has it's thorn" got big, Jovi wrote "I'll be there for you". He did what he liked, but also did what he knew would sell. There was no extreme anything behind it... it wasn't metal, just trendy.

Jovi is about as metal, as Green Day are punk rock.

Being macabre doesn't make you metal, playing Metal music does.

And GnR didn't play metal music? It's 1985... everyone was listening to Heart. People where so nieve that Dee Snider had to go to court and fight for his right to sing "We're not gonna take it" of all things. Think about it... We're not gonna take it was considered so bad that he had to fight in a court of law for the ability to retain the rights to sing it. He did so for not just Twisted Sister, but all metal bands... hell, any musician who wanted to freely express himself.

If "We're not gonna take it" was so bad and rowdy that it litterally scared Tipper Gore into a frenzy, GnR had to be the work of Satan himself. Screw "we're not gonna take it", Axel was calling everybody N***ers and Faggots, and the albums mandatory parental advisory told everyone to go fuck themself if they where offended by it.

I don't see how we can say "Twisted Sister where metal" but then turn around and say GnR aren't when it's obvious the two share an awful lot in common.

The fact that GnR wore black and used violence and death on their album art is just furture proof of the metal attitude. They're not like Jovi who stumbled into a Hair Metal hit but wore brown vests and had album artwork that featured nothing other then a band logo and a cd name. Bon Jovi fails where the GnR attitude picks up... which is why Jov is rock, and GnR are metal. There is a very clear and distinctive diffrence between the two.

It's strange that someone who claims to be punk rock wouldn't understand this. Are you implying that there is no "punk rock attitude" in the punk rock scene? Are you implying that I would be punk rock if I simply removed the solos from my bands music? Are you implying that even though I hate everything punk rock stands for, and can't stand any of the original punk rock bands, that I'd still be just as punk as you if I played powerchords and covered the occasional No Doubt track?

Blink 182 are just as punk rock as the Sex Pistols? Green Day just as punk as the Clash? The Crass and the Exploited not as punk as the Offspring? Iggy Pop not as punk as Avril Lavigne?

Who are you trying to kid here... your music of choice requires just as much lifestyle dedication as mine, yet you claim not to understand my point? I do hope you can clafiry this for me.

At 2/23/09 03:31 PM, DroopyA wrote:

Far too much stuff

No... No it wouldn't be anything like that. I've already explained this to you 79 times, but you don't get it, so I'm done with that. Ramones were punk because they were punk. It's... as simple as that.

More stuff

Bon Jovi had the hair, and "rocked." If you're going to insist that GnR is metal, I'm gonna say "Dead or Alive" was, no matter how much I hate that band and that song.

And furthermore, fuckit. Sheryl Crow covered a song of there's. If you're going to keep pounding this, I'm going to have to ask you how metal that was.

Jovi is about as metal, as Green Day are punk rock.

Bon Jovi is 0% metal. But they were thought to be "metal" because they were a part of the "hair metal" style. Again, I've told you why 80 times now, but none of that seems to want to stick, so why should it now.

And GnR didn't play metal music?

I'm not even convinced you think that to be true

It's strange that someone who claims to be punk rock wouldn't understand this.

I'm saying you're pigeonholing all of a certain set of actions under "metal" when you appear to be pulling them from a different hole.

Your goddamn music does not require a lifestyle. Music can just be music. Playing a fucking triangle for the London Philharmonic then leaving the show to kill a hooker in your hotel room does not make you metal.

At 2/23/09 01:27 PM, Killing-joke wrote: They've lost their way, it wasn;t worth waiting like 13years for

Agreed. Axel had written a huge chunk of songs like Comma or November Rain so there was good potential behind the new album, but he didn't write all of the song. It's become blantely obvious that Axel needed the band just as bad as the band needed Axel. Neither Velvet Revolver or the new GnR album has shown any of the unique creativness that the orignal GnR albums did.

Worse yet... it took far too long to make. It might have been good 10 years ago. But not worth the wait. If somebody where to give me 13 years and billions of dollars for studio time, I promise I would deliever an album better then that. 13 years... for one CD... I might be able to make a better album then the Beatles. I mean 13 years... that's a long fucking time. That's like 9 months a song. :)

At 2/23/09 03:43 PM, HandsomePete wrote: Ramones were punk because they were punk. It's... as simple as that.

Why does this logic not apply to Guns N Roses? What makes the Ramones punk by todays standard? I wanna be Sedated is as about as hardcore and punk rock and the "Sk8r Boi"... and I'm being serious here, not just name-droping a crap artist. The styles in music are very similar... yet one is a fake, and the other are Punk Gods. So how do you determin who's real? Doesn't this say "There's more to music then just the music"?

Bon Jovi had the hair, and "rocked." If you're going to insist that GnR is metal, I'm gonna say "Dead or Alive" was, no matter how much I hate that band and that song.

GnR didn't have the hair. Slash has always had the same curly long haired look and when the band first came out, only two of the members had puffy blond hair. The rest where just long haired thugs. I've done you a favor and attached a picture at the bottom for you to look at.

I want you to take note... the right, is Bon Jovi, the left is Guns N Roses. The image at the bottom, 1980s Anthrax. Notice the distinct lack of bright colors and tights in the image on left. While Bon Jovi are smiling and dancing around with their frilly peices of colored cloth dangled off their white jackets and red and yellow spoted tights, GnR are a group of pissed off drunks wearing blue jean jackets and chains. I would think this picture clearly states the diffrence between GnR and their fellow 'Glam-Rock" counterparts.

Ask yourself, do GnR look more at home with the Jovi, or with Anthrax? I think this picture makes a very 'metal' point.

And furthermore, fuckit. Sheryl Crow covered a song of there's. If you're going to keep pounding this, I'm going to have to ask you how metal that was.

Anybody can cover anything they want. That doesn't change the original bands genre. Dynamite Hack covered Easy E and Behemoth covered the Ramones. Does that mean the Ramones are now a death metal band?

Bon Jovi is 0% metal. But they were thought to be "metal" because they were a part of the "hair metal" style.

I understand it fine... and the truth is Jovi's first couple of albums were metal. It's their later work that proved otherwise.

I think the real issue here, is that there was no "hard rock" in the 80s. Hard Rock wouldn't come about until the 90s... when we needed a place to put bands like Def Leppard and Bon Jovi after metal became synonymous with Cannibal Corpse and Metallica.

The key diffrence here, is that GnR didn't fit it with Def Leppard and Bon Jovi... they wheren't those types of guys. After hard-rock was established people tried to shove GnR in there, but that's unjustified as nothing GnR did as a band has anything to do with hard-rock outside of their 'dated' music. But like I said, you can't just strip a band of their title just because time has passed. GnR have the metal attitude... don't they have to be metal band?

I'm saying you're pigeonholing all of a certain set of actions under "metal" when you appear to be pulling them from a different hole.

What? What actions? I've just picked apart sterotypes and pointed out that GnR fits more the metal sterotypes then they do the rock ones. Add that to the intesity of their music compared to the popular music of the time and I don't see how they can be rock.

Once again, Look at the picture. They don't seem like a rock band to me... especially since at the time of that Jovi picture, Jovi where metal. Crappy trendy metal, but metal none the less.

Your goddamn music does not require a lifestyle.

First of all, drop the attitude. I've been nothing but nice and you've done little more that act like an obnoxious twat the entire time. Do you somehow think that your shit-ass attitude makes me think higher of you? I'd probably be more inclined to hear the points you're making if they weren't filled with bullshit remarks like this.

Second, there's no lifestyle to punk? Does this mean Avril is just as punk as Iggy Pop? It's a simple yes or no... if you honestly belive that lifestyle or artist mentallity has nothing to do with the music then you have to say yes.

Playing a fucking triangle for the London Philharmonic then leaving the show to kill a hooker in your hotel room does not make you metal.

Who said it did? This would just make you a murderer... not all murderers are metal heads and not all metal heads are murderers.

I think it would be rock, I mean seriously. Take a look at their Knockin` on Heavens Door. That doesn't sound very metal to me. >.>

At 2/23/09 05:48 PM, Cosmicboy37 wrote: I think it would be rock, I mean seriously. Take a look at their Knockin` on Heavens Door. That doesn't sound very metal to me. >.>

Black Sabbaths' Changes doesn't sound very metal to me.

Id have to say that they just suck...mostly.

They're Hair Metal.
Interpret that anyway you want, but I consider Hair Metal as rock (even though it's too corporate to be rock)

Paradise City and Welcome to the Jungle were on VH-1's top 40 metal bands list show.

I would not say they are Metal, but they are Hard Rock. Listen, the only song I thought that was Metal in the 80's was Welcome to the Jungle and You Could Be Mine. Other than that, they are just a Hard Rock band.

At 2/19/09 11:45 AM, DroopyA wrote: I say they're metal... I'd also say anyone that disagrees with me is either really young or just plain foolish. Regardless, it's a topic that usually comes up and everytime it does thre are always people who disagree with me.

I've never viewed GnR as Metal, to be honest. Sure, some of their tunes are good and the main issue I have with that band is that Axl is a douche who alienated all of the band, killing the golden goose, while they enjoyed a renaissance in the form of Velvet Revolver.

I don't think I could possibly say that GnR have ever been metal. I can't say that Velvet Revolver is either, so they are both Rock Bands.

At 2/24/09 08:47 AM, Coop83 wrote: I've never viewed GnR as Metal, to be honest. Sure, some of their tunes are good and the main issue I have with that band is that Axl is a douche who alienated all of the band, killing the golden goose, while they enjoyed a renaissance in the form of Velvet Revolver.

But see, all of that is modern GnR history. It's as if the entire world has forgotten about the age before Guns N Roses... I agree with everything you said. Velevet Revolver are a rock band, plain and simple. And Axel Rose, a douche bag who thought too highly of himself to agknowledge that he needs the band just as much as they need him.

But the real Guns N Roses died after the Spegetti Incident was released. The Illusion albums where the last real GnR albums with original music, and as far as I'm concerned... the "Sympathy for the Devil" cover on the interview with a vampire soundtrack was the last recorded GnR song.

After that the band broke up. Axel sued to keep the name, and that's when the whole "Chinese Democracy" debaucle started taking place.

I don't think I could possibly say that GnR have ever been metal.

That's so odd to me... so I have to ask... where you alive in the 80s? I don't mean to make it sound like I'm discrediting your answer, I'm just curious.

I was 7 when Appittite for Destruction was released. I can clearly remember what the radio and TV looked like before Guns N Roses showed their face to the masses. I remember seeing the GnR albums in brown paper bags behind the counter at the record store. I remember hiding a recorded tape cassette from my parents... I remember Michel Jackson before he was a child molester and I remember hearing "I just died in your arms tonight" on the radio when it was new.

I remember watching the nightly news reports discussing the trampling deaths at the Metallica GnR tour and the occasional reports on Axels latest fan beating. I remember watching MTV news and Kurt Loyder(sp?) covering the mass lines that formed outside numerious record stores awaiting the midnight release of the Use your Illusion cds...

It's all such a metal experiance for me. It sadens me to see todays youth doesn't understand this... the ground work bands like GnR laid so bands like Cannibal Corpse could exist, just forgotten and written into the wrong pages of the history book... next to Bryan Adams of all people. Seems like such a shame to me.

Are your memories similar? Once again, you can consider them rock... not trying to stop you from thinking that, I'm just curious... did you witness GnR first hand, or where you born after GnR where already a household name?

At 2/23/09 06:08 PM, ChickenGod wrote: They're Hair Metal.
Interpret that anyway you want, but I consider Hair Metal as rock (even though it's too corporate to be rock)

There, someone else said it, too. I announce my retirement from this pointless conversation.

At 2/24/09 04:44 PM, HandsomePete wrote: There, someone else said it, too. I announce my retirement from this pointless conversation.

Why would you bump this? The conversation was already over... all you're pointless shit-ass attitude did was just restart it (Possibly).

Seriously man, go smoke a blunt or meet a girl... you're wound up pretty tight and really need to learn to relax. It's the internet... we're all friends here man. No need to be an ass.

Guns N' Roses really aren't worth four pages of discussion. Who cares if they were "metal" or
"rock", they were a mainstream band who were in it for the money just like everyone else of that era. Axl Rose is a drunken sell-out with absolutely no talent, and the fact you think he writes good lyrics makes me laugh. Guns N' Roses were an over-hyped, trendy-ass band who deserve no credit, no recognition, and no discussion .

/Thread.

there hard rock which is light metal or regular metal

At 2/23/09 02:07 PM, CutterMoore wrote:

At 2/21/09 02:51 AM, CapnCrunchDaPimp wrote: Oh dear.. you know what they say about guys with Guns N' Roses tattoos.

No, my friend, please enlighten me....what do they say? and who exactly is 'they'?

They drop out of school, sell drugs, live in vans, etc.

At 2/19/09 11:45 AM, DroopyA wrote: I say they're metal... I'd also say anyone that disagrees with me is either really young or just plain foolish. Regardless, it's a topic that usually comes up and everytime it does thre are always people who disagree with me.

So let's settle this Newgrounds... do you consider GNR Metal or some form of Rock?

And be prepared to backup your answers with reasons. This isn't a postCount+1 topic... it's a serious debate... one that may very well determin the future of our universe.

Its called hair metal and its all just subgenres to rock. There is no reason to pick out specific tags for bands. Its not important. You like it or you hate it. Dont be offended by it being called something its not and dont hold music back from its potential by restraining it to one specific style.

I'd say they're either Hard Rock or Classic Metal.

they're hard rock.

i lump them along with U2 as Douche Rock

i love guns n roses. they rock. yeahhhhh.

I consider the current GNR to be pop-rock

But the GNR of Appetite for Destruction were metal.

Chinese Democracy sucked, btw

Shit is what it is.

At 3/17/09 06:06 PM, RedStripedd wrote: I consider the current GNR to be pop-rock

They've never been anything but Rock...

But the GNR of Appetite for Destruction were metal.

I kind of agree, but at the same time, it's not what I call metal so, therefore, I'd have to contradict myself slightly and say I don't think they are.

Chinese Democracy sucked, btw

I can't help but NOT disagree. Thatwas one of the worst anticipated albums of all time!

There metal and rock
/thread

At 2/19/09 11:45 AM, DroopyA wrote: I'd also say anyone that disagrees with me is either really young or just plain foolish.

So how the fuck are we going to discuss if you're not going to take different opinions?

Nonetheless, I consider them to be Hard Rock. They're not agressive enough to be Metal, as someone else said.

They're hard rock. If you listen to paradise city, sweet child o mine, or November rain, you can't possibly tag them as metal.

At 2/28/09 02:54 AM, TheOnlyJBK wrote: Its called hair metal

How where GNR a hair metal band? At any given point in time there was maybe two members with big hair, if even that.... and none of the members ever wore make-up, high heels, fancly clothes, or performed dance moves on stage.

Musically, they avoided most of the hair metal band sterotypes... things like love ballads and track after track about sex.

At 3/17/09 09:47 PM, Killing-joke wrote: it's not what I call metal

What would you consider metal?
What makes one band metal, and another just 'hard rock'?

At 3/17/09 09:58 PM, MexicanGun wrote: So how the fuck are we going to discuss if you're not going to take different opinions?

How are we going to discuss it if I just agree with everything everybody says?

They're not agressive enough to be Metal, as someone else said.

By who's standards? 2009s? Keep in mind, GnR started in the early 80s... Metallica where still an opening act and Bruce Springstein was Rock N Roll. Given the time period, I'd say GnR where pretty aggressive.

At 5/14/09 04:13 PM, phanaj wrote: They're hard rock. If you listen to paradise city, sweet child o mine, or November rain, you can't possibly tag them as metal.

What's not metal about any of those tracks?

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk... I really want to know... why is it ok for Ozzy to slow things down but it's not ok for Axel? And what about Paradise City isn't metal? The drums? The fact that it was a huge radio hit?

I personally don't get it... the 80s sucked. Everybody was into Neon and doing group dances like the Electric Slide. You Spin me Right Round was a new song and Michael Bolton was kicking ass on the pop charts.

Put yourself in that area. Imagine a time where Footloose is not only new, but toping the billboard charts. You've never heard Cannibal Corpse and Nirvana are still a decade away. YOU LOVE FOOTLOOSE... and then you hear GnR... would you really, in all honesty, at that point in time, consider what you are hearing as "rock"?

How could you, Footloose is rock, and GnR are heavier then that... it has to be metal. Hard rock didn't really exist yet and the attitude of the member didn't live up the rock standards... it was a metal lifestyle through and through... played by metal guys... doing heavy metal shit... on tour with heavy metal bands... and selling their albums to heavy metal fans.

how is it rock?

They're hard rock.

/thread