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At 2/13/09 07:40 AM, Earfetish wrote: A week of heavy snow in England probably killed more people and disrupted our economy more than years of Al Qaeda terrorist attempts.

That's why they fail. They've not even touched America since 9/11. 52 people in England on 7/7? A tragedy for every family, of course, but damn I'm more concerned about lightening.

True, but natural occurences are easier to predict and make evacuations. People tend to think unpredictably and could attack at any moment. But the main culprit here is the idea that they will simply never stop coming despite all of our resistance. Besides, it was a heck of a lot worse for us than your country.

It's really great to see such amazing critical thinking going on on this forum. I mean not one person has bought into the whole "terrorists are evil, the west is good" malarky....oh wait.

Of course, you're trying to apply logic to a person who is obviously not thinking rationally, so that's why they will never stop.

Being unable to discerne reason and reason not existing are two separate things. Also, assuming that one side of a conflict does not have legitimate reasons and does not think rationally is a way to perpetuate conflicts, not understand them. If anyone has Uni journal access there is this http://journals.cambridge.org/action/dis playAbstract;jsessionid=51FC7643D4510DF4 8016DC8E853C0DE8.tomcat1?fromPage=online &aid=173126

Bye-the-bye, I like how the argument that terrorists are not rational thinkers is advanced at the same time as the argument that they are motivated by a heavenly ten-foot cock and a few hundred virgins (i.e. that, within their assumptions, they are working as rational actors following an incentive.)

Troops in Saudi Arabia is not the reason. Terrorists with Al Quida and similar organizations are not out for some specific event or action. Their ultimate goal is the complete overthrow of western governments and secular governments, imposing Islamic rule across the globe, and nothing short of that will appease them. Do not be fooled into thinking that withdrawing troops from Saudi Arabia will end this.

I disagree about their ultimate goal. So does bin Laden
"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/in ternational/fatwa_1998.html
Care to venture a primary source against this? Y'know, some terrorist saying that their ultimate goal is the domination of Islam over the entire world

At 2/13/09 07:48 PM, Slizor wrote: Care to venture a primary source against this? Y'know, some terrorist saying that their ultimate goal is the domination of Islam over the entire world

bin Laden and others cite Sayyid Qutb as their intellectual hero, the one who has shown them what the world should be like. If your not familiar with Sayyid Qutbs work, he believes very deeply that Sharia law is the only way for Islam to truly exist, and that every country should subscribe to its values or face damnation. He makes no secret of his distaste for western culture, its promiscuity and exhibitionism, as well as secular Arab governments.Linky.

We need to work terrorists into our favor.

*fake news report*

"Government officals are secretly meeting in an abandoned building to discuss anti-terrorism laws"

Bomber goes into building, a year later we have a new casino and one less terrorist.

It's so brilliant and insane (but mostly insane) it might work.

At 2/13/09 03:50 PM, Ericho wrote: Besides, it was a heck of a lot worse for us than your country.

Only cos you moaned about it so much. Terrorists won because your government and media FORCED their attack to terrify the populace. Statistically, 9/11 was still peanuts, or more relevantly, peanut allergies.

I know the guys who did it were pure evil murderers and it was certainly a black day for everyone, witnessing such large-scale murder, but the only reason why killing people should alter your way of life is because you let it.

At 2/12/09 05:13 PM, Drakim wrote: Quite frankly, to bring down the west is an impossible goal.

It's called cultural destruction and the elimination of the society's history. That is how you bring down a civilization. Terrorists, yes, do not have much of a grip on reality.

"A branch without its roots will rot."

At 2/14/09 12:23 AM, JoS wrote:

At 2/13/09 07:48 PM, Slizor wrote: Care to venture a primary source against this? Y'know, some terrorist saying that their ultimate goal is the domination of Islam over the entire world

bin Laden and others cite Sayyid Qutb as their intellectual hero, the one who has shown them what the world should be like. If your not familiar with Sayyid Qutbs work, he believes very deeply that Sharia law is the only way for Islam to truly exist, and that every country should subscribe to its values or face damnation. He makes no secret of his distaste for western culture, its promiscuity and exhibitionism, as well as secular Arab governments.Linky.

That's not a primary source, nor does it come from a terrorist or does it say that the ultimate goal is the worldwide spread of Islam. It's not like quoting the Hamas Charter which says such things as
"The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others. "

"As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it, so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the reinstitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to their true place. "

"Hamas has learned from these lessons and examples, that the current Zionist invasion had been preceded by a Crusader invasion from the West; and another one, the Tatars, from the East. And exactly as the Muslims had faced those invasions and planned their removal and defeat, they are able to face the Zionist invasion and defeat it. This will not be difficult for Allah if our intentions are pure and our determination is sincere; if the Muslims draw useful lessons from the experiences of the past, and extricate themselves for the vestiges of the [western] ideological onslaught; and if they follow the traditions of Islam."

Sounds that their aims are defensive and insular (in regard to the "Islamic world") to me.

In conclusion, I ask God to help us champion His religion and continue jihad for His sake until we meet Him while He is satisfied with us. And He can do so. Praise be to Almighty God.

Since I don't read Urdu I have to use someone's article on an interview from an Urdu newspaper.

About the objectives of Lashkar-e-Islam, Mangal Bagh said: "Allah revealed the Koran, which was not sent for any one particular region of the world. It was revealed for all of humanity. We are out to spread Islam throughout the world."

According to the paper, he said: "Our objective is to impart the teachings of the Koran. There are 180,000 mujahideen in our organization, and all these people work fi sabilillah [for the sake of Allah]. They receive no pay. They manage on their own."

To think that bin Laden would really stop once US troops are out of Saudi Arabia would be foolish. If he knows he can extract concessions he will keep coming up with new reasons.

Additionally Sayyid Qutb was a member of the Muslim Bortherhood, and a very influential member.

In conclusion, I ask God to help us champion His religion and continue jihad for His sake until we meet Him while He is satisfied with us. And He can do so. Praise be to Almighty God.

That's ambiguous at best - unless you consider the verb "champion" meaning to "forcefully instil across the world." Plus, that's way out of context considering stuff like
"These actions were carried out by the zealous sons of Islam in defence of their religion and in response to the order of their God and prophet, may God's peace and blessings be upon him. "

"Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot?

This is unfair. It is time that we get even.

You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb. "

Since I don't read Urdu I have to use someone's article on an interview from an Urdu newspaper.

About the objectives of Lashkar-e-Islam, Mangal Bagh said: "Allah revealed the Koran, which was not sent for any one particular region of the world. It was revealed for all of humanity. We are out to spread Islam throughout the world."

This is a minor organisation that, on the very website you linked to, denies affliation with al Qaeda and the Taliban.

According to the paper, he said: "Our objective is to impart the teachings of the Koran. There are 180,000 mujahideen in our organization, and all these people work fi sabilillah [for the sake of Allah]. They receive no pay. They manage on their own."

Again, ambiguous. Impart does not mean force.

To think that bin Laden would really stop once US troops are out of Saudi Arabia would be foolish. If he knows he can extract concessions he will keep coming up with new reasons.

I don't think once US troops are out of Saudi Arabia bin Laden would stop. I imagine once US troops are out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, etc and an end to the Israel/Palestinian situation has occured would Islamic terrorism significantly die down.

Additionally Sayyid Qutb was a member of the Muslim Bortherhood, and a very influential member.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a political movement which condemned the 9/11 attacks.

Are we one to judge the way a criminal mind processes information? No. Criminals have a different mind than the average human. Their brains have been rewired since birth.

At 2/14/09 12:49 PM, iamgrimreaper wrote: Are we one to judge the way a criminal mind processes information? No. Criminals have a different mind than the average human. Their brains have been rewired since birth.

Really? Prove it. Give research, website, something that backs this up. I would like to see where you are getting this information.

At 2/14/09 08:34 AM, Slizor wrote: That's not a primary source,

Google "bin laden interview 1994". Then read the transcript and interpret what you think Osama meant when he declared a fatwa and issued his holy orders to kill westerners where they stand for crimes against God.

It's a start if you're new to the subject.

Defending crimes against your God by slaughtering innocents is NOT self-defense.

At 2/14/09 01:01 PM, BrianEtrius wrote:

At 2/14/09 12:49 PM, iamgrimreaper wrote: Are we one to judge the way a criminal mind processes information? No. Criminals have a different mind than the average human. Their brains have been rewired since birth.

Really? Prove it. Give research, website, something that backs this up. I would like to see where you are getting this information.

I watched this documentary once. It showed that a criminal brain had less of some kind of chemical. This chemical is what influences caring for others. Normal people have alot of this chemical. That's why when you here alot of people died, or there was a natural disaster, you feel sorry for the people. You are born with how much of that chemical you have. Criminals have only little of this, so when they kill, torture, or just plain hurt someone, they don't care. Also, people with less of this chemical get mad, sad, hurt, and other expressions mixed up.

iamgrimreaper, get the fuck out. Every normal human can turn into a criminal. It is not that you are automatically a criminal when you lack this or that in your brain. That is plain bullshit.

Some of the nicest people can be forced into criminality due to poverty, for example. It's not like their brain suddenly changes after making their first criminal hit, right?

At 2/14/09 06:21 PM, Aughiris wrote: iamgrimreaper, get the fuck out.

Hey hey, listen up asshole, don't go throwing people out of my thread. >:o

Every normal human can turn into a criminal. It is not that you are automatically a criminal when you lack this or that in your brain. That is plain bullshit.

Come on, do you people really think so black and white of the world? Either it's a chemical or it's entirely a free will choice? Doesn't it sound reasonable to assume that despite that criminal actions are actions we choose to do, various things, like a chemical imbalance in the brain, can influence us?

I mean, do you reject the idea that some people are naturally more angry than others? I sure know a lot of people who are angry all the time. Don't you think these people are more likely to commit violent crimes? Yet, that doesn't mean they are born criminals. It only means that their mentality might push them in that direction should a nasty situation arise.

At 2/14/09 02:16 AM, Earfetish wrote: Only cos you moaned about it so much. Terrorists won because your government and media FORCED their attack to terrify the populace. Statistically, 9/11 was still peanuts, or more relevantly, peanut allergies.

"Peanuts"? What? It killed 3,000 people! Just to put that in perspective the London bombing killed only 52 people, which is over five times as much.

At 2/14/09 09:29 PM, Ericho wrote: "Peanuts"? What? It killed 3,000 people! Just to put that in perspective the London bombing killed only 52 people, which is over five times as much.

60 times as much. Maths.

How many were killed by Katrina? How many die from flu every year? It's not statistically something worth worrying about.

I recommend reading "Longitudes and Attitudes", a book by Thomas Friedman. He writes often for the New York Times, and is very educated and suitably opinionated on the topic. He discusses the importance of combating terrorism, and the fundamental retrograde of... well... religious fundamentalism. I believe he wrote the book before 09/11/2001.

At 2/14/09 06:39 PM, Drakim wrote:

At 2/14/09 06:21 PM, Aughiris wrote: iamgrimreaper, get the fuck out.

Hey hey, listen up asshole, don't go throwing people out of my thread. >:o

Every normal human can turn into a criminal. It is not that you are automatically a criminal when you lack this or that in your brain. That is plain bullshit.

Come on, do you people really think so black and white of the world? Either it's a chemical or it's entirely a free will choice? Doesn't it sound reasonable to assume that despite that criminal actions are actions we choose to do, various things, like a chemical imbalance in the brain, can influence us?

I mean, do you reject the idea that some people are naturally more angry than others? I sure know a lot of people who are angry all the time. Don't you think these people are more likely to commit violent crimes? Yet, that doesn't mean they are born criminals. It only means that their mentality might push them in that direction should a nasty situation arise.

Yes, some people might be more prone to agressive behavior. In fact, testosterone alone makes a man more agressive. But just because someone is more agressive does not mean he or she will become a criminal (or, in a more rational way, an 'immoral person'.) That is a choice one makes. When a person sees EU100,- on a table and nobody around, he can grab it or leave it. It all depends on the personal situation.

At 2/14/09 09:57 PM, Earfetish wrote: 60 times as much. Maths.

Oops. Sorry about that.

How many were killed by Katrina? How many die from flu every year? It's not statistically something worth worrying about.

Katrina killed roughly 2300 people.

To be honest, with your attitude towards them, its no suprise that they hate you. no we can't just "Erase them" from history, we've no right to. We just have to simply defend ourselves. And why should we blame the homeland for actions of savages hat the homeland themselves don't want?