Having Kids!

[Tomsan]

So I had a dream last night and in that dream I had a boy. I am to young to have children of my own, but I always say I dont want them, very well knowing this opinion can change within years. In the dream I fel enormous love for the child and I woke up wondering if that is the reason for people to have children.. to love, whatever that may be.

So why do people want to reproduce? obviously in the animal kingdom their is a large need for offspring. its in their genes (also in ours) and its caused by sexual urge. But man has found a way to cheat reproduction. Still most couples want children sooner or later. Why do you suppose that is? is it selfish? wanting to be able to continue the family name? or is it an investment for your old days? Is it because your life has come to a phase where nothing new happens and you want some new experiences?

All of the above are quite selfish reasons. Is it maybe the evaporation of romance and love between the couple, and they want to engage in a 'ritual' which ensures their being together? I dont know the answer, I do know that having children comes with a lot of negative points.

I suspect that it is a primal instinct to have children. The effect on your life can(will) be so dramatical it is not something to take lightly and yet the decision often is taken that way. human children need so much care for such a long time it becomes questionable if having kids is a choice at all. You as a parent sacrifice a very large portion of your life!

is the urge to have children just a rudimentary instinct which can never die out considering that will end our species...? Or is it a conscious (and not only conscious in the way that you DECIDE to have children) decision with reasons I cannot think of?

discuss

[KeithHybrid]

The desire for children is written into our body's programming, and for good reason, as without having children, a species will eventually die out. I can't say for certain what reasons people want children, if there is any reason at all.

You bring up a very interesting question...

[Octust]

At 2/11/09 07:24 AM, Tomsan wrote:

is the urge to have children just a rudimentary instinct which can never die out considering that will end our species...? Or is it a conscious (and not only conscious in the way that you DECIDE to have children) decision with reasons I cannot think of?

discuss

Reproduction is the core of your being.
For the simple reasons that the impulse not to reproduce is weeded out by default. So basically it will go on forever, wheter through you or someone else.

Non reproducing behaviour can never be passed on to the next generation basically.

[Tomsan]

At 2/11/09 10:23 AM, Octust wrote:
Reproduction is the core of your being.
For the simple reasons that the impulse not to reproduce is weeded out by default. So basically it will go on forever, wheter through you or someone else.

Non reproducing behaviour can never be passed on to the next generation basically.

I am not sure if reproducing is in 'our core' or is 'written in our body' sex is. animals may have the urge to have sex, but they cant lay a line with offspring. Humans also want to have sex, but we can make sure we wont reproduce because of it. having a child seems to be a very concious decision with humans most of the time in the western world, I wonder why.

[Ericho]

At 2/11/09 07:24 AM, Tomsan wrote: So I had a dream last night and in that dream I had a boy.

Watch what you eat before going to bed.

is the urge to have children just a rudimentary instinct which can never die out considering that will end our species...? Or is it a conscious (and not only conscious in the way that you DECIDE to have children) decision with reasons I cannot think of?

discuss

I think it is an instinct because evolution teaches us that we should reproduce so that the species won't die out.

[aninjaman]

It's beleivable humans have an innate desire to reperdouce. The human that developed that trait would reproduce more so that trait would get passed along through evoloution.
It could also be a cultural thing. If you see a 40 year old unmarried woman without kids do you think she is a normal person that decided not to have kids or a crazy cat lady?

[Tomsan]

At 2/11/09 06:53 PM, aninjaman wrote: It's beleivable humans have an innate desire to reperdouce. The human that developed that trait would reproduce more so that trait would get passed along through evoloution.

indeed that has been said in all the previous posts

It could also be a cultural thing. If you see a 40 year old unmarried woman without kids do you think she is a normal person that decided not to have kids or a crazy cat lady?

If she is a crazy cat lady, I'll think she is a crazy cat lady, if not then not. I wont judge someone if they have kids or not.. common you wanna say that its not normal or even 'crazy' to grow old without having children? I know adults who consciously chose not to have children and they are fine smart good people.

Ill try it once more;

humans are the only living beings who can see the relation between sex and pregnancy. This indicates that the evolutionary pressure would concentrate on sexual urges. which is kinda visible in everyday life.. dogs humping your leg et etc Sex feels so good because it leads to offspring. It seems to me that nature's way of ensuring reproduction is making the method of doing so extremely tempting. Humans however can have sex without having children so then that effect is nullified.

[jonnyrules935]

At 2/11/09 07:04 PM, Tomsan wrote: Humans however can have sex without having children so then that effect is nullified.

Ever heard of an 'accident' ?

Anyway, the main point of having a child is to build a family, a legacy to the world, the only thing you are likely to leave when you die are your children, knowing you contributed to the world in some way is a great feeling.

And a 40 years-old solitary woman is definatly a cat-lady

[aninjaman]

At 2/11/09 07:04 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 2/11/09 06:53 PM, aninjaman wrote: It could also be a cultural thing. If you see a 40 year old unmarried woman without kids do you think she is a normal person that decided not to have kids or a crazy cat lady?

If she is a crazy cat lady, I'll think she is a crazy cat lady, if not then not. I wont judge someone if they have kids or not.. common you wanna say that its not normal or even 'crazy' to grow old without having children? I know adults who consciously chose not to have children and they are fine smart good people.

Amybe you won't but most people would.

Ill try it once more;

humans are the only living beings who can see the relation between sex and pregnancy. This indicates that the evolutionary pressure would concentrate on sexual urges. which is kinda visible in everyday life.. dogs humping your leg et etc Sex feels so good because it leads to offspring. It seems to me that nature's way of ensuring reproduction is making the method of doing so extremely tempting. Humans however can have sex without having children so then that effect is nullified.

But its perfectly reasonable that humans developed the desire to have children regardless of having sex. I know its been said before but that is the answer to your arguement so I will say it again.

[Tomsan]

At 2/11/09 07:21 PM, aninjaman wrote:

At 2/11/09 07:04 PM, Tomsan wrote:

Amybe you won't but most people would.

lol, I very much doubt that. dont think YOUR opinion is the opinion of the 'most people' in this case kinda arrogant and stupid.

Ill try it once more;

But its perfectly reasonable that humans developed the desire to have children regardless of having sex. I know its been said before but that is the answer to your arguement so I will say it again.

so they developed it in the last century? Its a very bold statement with no argumentation whatsoever. birth control is not around long enough to have an evolutionary effect. When did desire overcome sexual urges?

btw the answer to my argument is not something that is 'commonly known' like you supposedly state. I proposed several other possibilities. evolution and natural selection (which I am quite educated in. ( ATA)) do not necessarily provide an answer to my question.

[aninjaman]

At 2/11/09 09:33 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 2/11/09 07:21 PM, aninjaman wrote:

lol, I very much doubt that. dont think YOUR opinion is the opinion of the 'most people' in this case kinda arrogant and stupid.

I was simply saying there are social stigmas related to being single. Especially when you're older.

so they developed it in the last century? Its a very bold statement with no argumentation whatsoever. birth control is not around long enough to have an evolutionary effect. When did desire overcome sexual urges?

Whe couldn't have both the desire to have sex and the desire to have children both developed through evoloution?

btw the answer to my argument is not something that is 'commonly known' like you supposedly state. I proposed several other possibilities. evolution and natural selection (which I am quite educated in. ( ATA)) do not necessarily provide an answer to my question.

You have given no reason why it can't be evoloutionary.

[Tomsan]

At 2/12/09 04:39 PM, aninjaman wrote:

At 2/11/09 09:33 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 2/11/09 07:21 PM, aninjaman wrote:

so they developed it in the last century? Its a very bold statement with no argumentation whatsoever. birth control is not around long enough to have an evolutionary effect. When did desire overcome sexual urges?

Whe couldn't have both the desire to have sex and the desire to have children both developed through evoloution?

Yes it could have, absolutely, but I am more interested if we can show it has. The desire to have sex is obvious, but there is no apparent reason to assume that somehow the desire to have children came to evolve since we can only control our conception a short period. Hence my reference to 'bold statement'. before; everyone that found a mate got kids. If there is no reason for the behavior to evolve (and I dont clearly see a reason around long enough) it will not suddenly evolve.

btw the answer to my argument is not something that is 'commonly known' like you supposedly state. I proposed several other possibilities. evolution and natural selection (which I am quite educated in. ( ATA)) do not necessarily provide an answer to my question.

You have given no reason why it can't be evoloutionary.

haha.. ok that kinda closes the argument.

You: "its factor X"
I: "why is factor X? I dont see the logic in factor X"
You: "prove to me its not factor X"
.... uhhhhh lol

but my reason would be; no necessity.

If I think about it its probably a combination of factors which I described earlier. social pressure etc etc... but what doesnt relate to that, is the high percentage of couples having kids (even in western world). Social pressure cant be that much of an influence especially since its such a dramatic decision. If I dont want a child I would definitely not let myself be talked into it.

[aninjaman]

At 2/12/09 06:26 PM, Tomsan wrote: haha.. ok that kinda closes the argument.

You: "its factor X"
I: "why is factor X? I dont see the logic in factor X"
You: "prove to me its not factor X"
.... uhhhhh lol

but my reason would be; no necessity.

There is a necesity for an evoloutionary trait that causes people to have a desire to have children. To pass on thier genes. I have given a reason why what I say is logical. You have done nothing but say its not and you haven't backed up what you say.

[Tomsan]

At 2/13/09 07:08 PM, aninjaman wrote:

At 2/12/09 06:26 PM, Tomsan wrote: haha.. ok that kinda closes the argument.

You: "its factor X"
I: "why is factor X? I dont see the logic in factor X"
You: "prove to me its not factor X"
.... uhhhhh lol

but my reason would be; no necessity.

There is a necesity for an evoloutionary trait that causes people to have a desire to have children. To pass on thier genes. I have given a reason why what I say is logical. You have done nothing but say its not and you haven't backed up what you say.

Am I talking to a wall here? Do you suppose the NECESSITY is also of influence in the animal kingdom? also I am doubting you understand the word necessity. is there a necessity for beer if you already have whiskey to get drunk?

plz give your "logic' again; the only argument you came up with was: "The human that developed that trait would reproduce more so that trait would get passed along through evoloution."

I debunked that argument by saying Fertility and sexual urge is of much more influence. The statement that it could have evolved simultaneously was not argumented by you, and not refuted by me. I do know however that evolution doesnt work like that. it will not create a double 'urge' for the same effect, especially not when one far outweighs the other (I thought I explained this all quite clearly already) also there are no signs it would have.

furthermore the statement that the innate desire to have children would have a positive evolutinairy effect does not reflect on reality since the number of single children is on the rise in the western world for a long time. it is now considered a bit weird if you have more then 2 kids.

[Arob12]

Imagine if parents didn't raise their own children.

The state should bring up all toddlers right to high school - like ancient Sparta

What a much better place it would be today. The state wouldn't ruin their little heads with lies, spoil them, suckle them, abuse them , or at least not like their parents will ...