Made in USA

[JoS]

In the current economic climate, many groups are calling for made in Canada, made in USA etc provisions in stimulus packages and government spending. The idea is that it will create jobs in the domestic market. Buy Canadian steel you give Canadian steelworkers jobs. Buy Chinese steel and you take away jobs from Canadians.

On the surface this seems like common-sense, and a great idea. Its a very powerful message to convey, and very politically attractive for politicians to jump on. However this makes a lot of political economists, economists and others cringe.

Protectionism hurts in times of economic uncertainty. When a country imposes these kinds of measures, other nations respond in kind. This means you have less markets to export your goods to, less demand for your exports. In countries like Canada where a great deal of our economy is based around export this situation can be disastrous. It becomes a vicious cycle of tariffs and non-tariff barriers.

Think of global trade as a sport, and protectionism is steroids. Sure if you are the only one who juices your are going to get better results then everyone else, but then everyone else will start to use steroids giving you no advantage, and diminishes the quality of the sport. Same with trade barriers. If one person starts doing it, everyone will start doing and trade will grind to a halt, costing more jobs. The short term benefits of protectionism do not outweigh the long term damage.

While the loss of 129,000 jobs last month is sad and tragic for those who have become unemployed as well as the economy, made in Canada will not solve the problem. Made in Canada will not save jobs, nor will it create jobs. We must resist temptation for quick fixes and think long-term. While this brings no comfort for the thousands in our manufacturing sectors, history has shown that eventually the economy will recover and unemployment will fall once again.

The only question is when. The decisions we make as a country and as a global society now are what will determine the outcome.

[ReiperX]

I couldn't agree with you more. While yes, as an American it would be nice to the jobs going to American workers and creating American jobs. But there are multiple realities, such as now more than ever, the economy is global. Another thing to realize is cost, the stimulus bill comes at a huge cost, and by purchasing "American only" products, it will likely do nothing but increase the cost and still potentially get a lesser quality product than if it were purchased from another place.

Now this isn't to say that if the prices were very similar, and quality was identical that I wouldn't give preference to the US made materials, but with other factors you have to go with what is the best value.

[JoS]

Quality and price aside it is still a bad idea to have made in _____ provisions. Lets look at the US example. The majority of credit in the US is coming from China, both government and some personal. If you cut China out from selling you shit, they will have less money to lend you, thus credit will dry up. Also like Is aid, everyone else will start doing it and your export market will dry up, which is much larger than the stimulus market. Exports account for about $1.4 trillion each year. This stimulus is $800 billion and only for one year. Exports are far more important to the US economy then this stimulus bill.

[Minarchist]

At 2/7/09 10:57 AM, JoS wrote: Think of global trade as a sport, and protectionism is steroids. Sure if you are the only one who juices your are going to get better results then everyone else, but then everyone else will start to use steroids giving you no advantage, and diminishes the quality of the sport. Same with trade barriers. If one person starts doing it, everyone will start doing and trade will grind to a halt, costing more jobs. The short term benefits of protectionism do not outweigh the long term damage.

Even this is not true. If consumers are paying more money to buy certain domestic products instead of foreign, then they have less to spend in other markets. So what's really going on is the more productive and competitive industries, including other domestic ones, are hurt to support one domestic industry. In the end, EVERYONE loses except those few people in the protected industries.

[morefngdbs]

That is why we are such an important exporter to the US
We send them the raw materials,& they make stuff out of it & sell that to us for 10 times the price. Not too mention exporting those products to other countries.
I've seen some talk, mostly by the same type of people who claim that Bush caused 9/11.
Who are speaking of a United 'North America' being USA, Canada & Mexico. Anyway this North American Union will run under 1 currency tentitively called the 'Amero' that way the US dollar can be deflated by 10 times its present value etc. etc. sounds like a conspiracy theorists best dream.

But if all 3 countries use their resources , of material, manufacturing expertise & labor available All 3 of us will be better off IMO.

[Conspiracy3]

You bring up a point. Once the cat is out of the bag it won't get back in. When you introduce tarifs, tax breaks for American-made products, and other ideas similar other nations will respond in kind. In the short term you will probably see significant domestic economic growth, but in the long run you will see less trade and degrading diplomatic ties between foreign nations. The only way for anything to be done about this practice is for the UN to get involved, but the UN is made up of ambassadors from each nation involved, and those ambassadors are often elected or appointed by elected officials. Those officials do not want to lose their political support. This practice is inevitible.

[morefngdbs]

At 2/7/09 02:50 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: When you introduce tarifs, tax breaks for American-made products, and other ideas similar other nations will respond in kind

;;;;;;
One of the ideas being put out around here locally is by the local farmers, fishermen (& women). Is for all of us to buy local produce & goods. The feeling is it will cut down on imports. While true for many things...it won't work for orange juice, we don't grow enough. But we grow apples like by the gazillions.

also I have been able to go to a store & get Idaho potatoes & those yellow potatoes from Alaska at certain times. But Prince Edward island grows a massive amount of spuds, they grow well in Nova Scotia & New Brunswick as well. So buying them locally makes sense, especially if everyone in a local area supports that .

Now I know that won't work for everything & it wouldn't be good to have a steel plant in every province, & an aluminium plant, copper etc. Just like it makes no sense to build cars or planes or boats in every state or Province. but there are somethings that can be done on the local level which would be good for everyone involved.

[JoS]

I think you are kind of missing the point here. Yes it is good to buy local produce and such. That is an individual choice, just like buying a "domestic car" or other items made in your own area/country. There is nothing wrong with you choosing to buy local products.

What I am talking about is governments putting a requirement in their stimulus to buy only America steel, or in my case Canadian steel and other materials. Buying local steel is slightly different then buying local strawberries. If people want to buy their stuff thats fine, but once you institutionalize this (ie in federal spending) that is when you run into problems.

The government is obligated under several international, bilateral or trilateral treaties to deal with foriegn goods in certain ways, and often that means no preferential treatment to domestic companies. Under NAFTA for example to governments of Canada, US and Mexico are required to treat companies of the other countries the same as they would companies in their own country. Mexican companies are to be afforded the same opportunities to do business in the US as US companies are. If you mandate that all steel has to be produced domestically, you are in violation of the agreement.

And to be clear that I am simply not picking on the US for this I am equally opposed to the campaign of the CAW to ensure our stimulus bill contains a Made in Canada provision.

[MortifiedPenguins]

Apparently people don't read history anymore.

Simply mentioning the Smoot Haley Act and the damage it did to the US should be enough proof

[JustsTrollingAlong]

At 2/7/09 12:41 PM, JoS wrote: Quality and price aside it is still a bad idea to have made in _____ provisions. Lets look at the US example. The majority of credit in the US is coming from China, both government and some personal. If you cut China out from selling you shit, they will have less money to lend you, thus credit will dry up. Also like Is aid, everyone else will start doing it and your export market will dry up, which is much larger than the stimulus market. Exports account for about $1.4 trillion each year. This stimulus is $800 billion and only for one year. Exports are far more important to the US economy then this stimulus bill.

Why exactly do you think that it is a good idea that we should even be taking credit from china to buy what they manufacture. I haven't studied global economics too much but lets just sit down and think for a second... Would you want to borrow money from a coke dealer? Would you want to borrow money from a coke dealer to buy his coke? What the fuck are you going to do when he says "pay up"?

Really when we're being lent money to buy what the person themselves created, it's like they're giving it to us for free. There's no such thing as a free lunch, except in happy fun rainbow pony land (but we don't live there)

Lets imagine as an example that there are 7 people trapped on an island... 6 chinese and one american. The only necessity of these people is to eat for this example, just to keep it simple. Lets say... One chinese man plants the seeds and harvests crops, another chinese man raises cattle and whatnot, one collects water from a nearby stream, another butchers the cattle, another one collects wild fruits and berries, and the last of the chinese prepares and cooks all the food, the americans only job is to eat. Now I ask you... what is going to happen when the chinese all get tired of waiting on the american?

[Jinzoa]

The chinese leader Wen Jiabao visited britain not that long ago on his EU tour and a long story short the general emphasis was britain boosting trade with china.

"We know from previous downturns that a retreat to narrow, short-term protectionist policies would only serve to deepen the global recession and we must not and will not allow that to happen again."

A general quote from the new report i would have to agree also the "made in X" approach would just repeat history and even on a global scale if to many countries did it.

While protecting X countries jobs is indeed important as said previously we are now a global economy, if one strong economic force goes bad then it does start a chain reacton of some sort. Though i have to say when it comes to weaker economies the first world seems to ignore it somewhat, Zimbabwe is a fine example of en economy down the shitter. Though there are certain circumstances that prevent an all out helping hand i suppose.

[JoS]

At 2/11/09 01:52 PM, JustsTrollingAlong wrote: Why exactly do you think that it is a good idea that we should even be taking credit from china to buy what they manufacture.

Because that credit isn't just to buy Chinese products. Its to bail out banks, build bridges and infrastructure and a host of other things. This also helps to keep personal credit flowing so people can buy groceries, homes and cars.

I haven't studied global economics too much but lets just sit down and think for a second... Would you want to borrow money from a coke dealer? Would you want to borrow money from a coke dealer to buy his coke? What the fuck are you going to do when he says "pay up"?

Because he is not going to ask you to pay up as long as you are able to keep paying your interest. He doesn't care if you take 100 years to pay him back, he makes money off the interest, so the longer you take the better for him.

Really when we're being lent money to buy what the person themselves created, it's like they're giving it to us for free. There's no such thing as a free lunch, except in happy fun rainbow pony land (but we don't live there)

Once again thats just incorrect. First the money is not being entirely spent on Chinese products, in fact only a small minority of the money is being spent on it. A better comparison may have been buying a car with a loan from the dealership, but even that is still a bit off base.

Now I ask you... what is going to happen when the Chinese all get tired of waiting on the American?

This is the kind of popular argument I am trying to keep people from making. The just look out for yourself mentality is exactly the opposite of what we want. And besides you are forgetting the Americans are still sending something back, interest payments.

[universal-fear]

(mind my spelling)(the following is kinda pg-13 or higher)
I completely agree with you.
And unfortunatly my scanner isnt working, becouse i wrote a political cartoon(not so good but to the point) on the subject.
Mainly, i would like to say, that from the U.S perspective it would be great to buy "made U.S", though most of our things our made in china.
My beliefe is that China is like a prostitute, in a sense where the U.S pays the chinese Goverment(pimp) for the sweat shops(the prostitute) to fuck us with cheap products(sex that comes with STDs). This is becouse recently, before the penute crisis, when i turned on my chinese made TV (that broke yesterday by the way, i only had it for a year) i would see something about lead tainted baby toy products.
And now that China is becoming a super power becouse the U.S is paying it so much money its soon easaly going to be able to wage war(bitch slap, or what ever that is called) on the U.S when we, the U.S runs out of money altogether and goes back to supplieing itself(masturbation).

[JoS]

That was one of the oddest metaphors I have ever read. But you failed to take into account one vital piece of the equation. The pimp is dependent on the John, for without the John to buy the services of the prostitute, the pimp has no income. Therefore it is in the best interest of the pimp to ensure the John continues to use the prostitute. The pimp has no reason to hurt the John, and in fact its quite the opposite, he has a vested interest in keeping the John happy.

[JustsTrollingAlong]

Why do you think that credit is a good thing? You're so fucking stupid... credit is only good for the people giving it out, when you use credit you're using what SOMEBODY ELSE EARNED TO GET WHAT YOU WANT. You're going to pay for it, and not just in the interest, it's in the LONG TERM.

At 2/11/09 04:46 PM, JoS wrote: Because that credit isn't just to buy Chinese products. Its to bail out banks, build bridges and infrastructure and a host of other things. This also helps to keep personal credit flowing so people can buy groceries, homes and cars.

Weren't you the one just saying to look at the long term view? Not the short term of
"oh shit I'm so far in debt that I don't actually have enough of my own money to provide myself food and shelter so give me money"

Because he is not going to ask you to pay up as long as you are able to keep paying your interest.

He doesn't care if you take 100 years to pay him back, he makes money off the interest, so the longer you take the better for him.

North America went through it's industrial revolution and started making advancements well before the Chinese, why are we having to borrow money from the places that should be behind us. We should already have more because we started earlier, what fucking happened?

Once again thats just incorrect. First the money is not being entirely spent on Chinese products, in fact only a small minority of the money is being spent on it.

And only a SMALL MINORITY of people are intelligent enough to realize how bad the US's CREDIT is. We don't have SHIT TO REPAY THE LOAN AND WE'RE NOT WORKING TO GET TO A POINT TO WHERE WE COULD HAVE SHIT TO REPAY THE LOAN...
Lets restate that... it's a fucking loan dude, you have to PAY LOANS BACK.

A better comparison may have been buying a car with a loan from the dealership, but even that is still a bit off base.

I think a better comparison would be that you're name is motherfucking Henry Ford and you're trillions of dollars in debt and still borrowing money from Katsuaki Watanabe (the ceo of toyota) to buy a fucking toyota.

This is the kind of popular argument I am trying to keep people from making. The just look out for yourself mentality is exactly the opposite of what we want.

Wait... a POPULAR ARGUMENT... that YOU want to KEEP PEOPLE FROM MAKING because they would be LOOKING OUT FOR THEMSELVES?
Who do you think is looking out for us, China?

And besides you are forgetting the Americans are still sending something back, interest payments.

So we're sending them back fractions of what they lent us and asking them for more money... Um... There's no way you are THAT FUCKING STUPID TO NOT REALIZE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE.

[Idiot-Finder]

Many things are "Made in China", "Made in South Korea", and "Made in Japan" these days.

[BadDoggie]

At 2/12/09 03:29 AM, JustsTrollingAlong wrote: Why do you think that credit is a good thing? You're so fucking stupid... credit is only good for the people giving it out, when you use credit you're using what SOMEBODY ELSE EARNED TO GET WHAT YOU WANT. You're going to pay for it, and not just in the interest, it's in the LONG TERM.

I agree (though, you don't have to be so rude), The global economy rely's too much on credit. Credit isn't tangible. It would make more sense to put in place a sort of "Bartering" system which goods are exchanged for other goods.

By the way, the US is still the number one exporter of one thing.

Garbage.

And then China sells it back to us in the form of a cheap toy.

That right, we're buying our own shit.

[homor]

At 2/17/09 01:55 AM, Contipec wrote: Screw the USA.

fuck Venezula or however the fuck you spell that stupid piece of shit worthless country.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

if it were not for the Us we wouldnt have electricity cars or airrplanes. what has south america provided to the world so far other than being ass backward countries?

[morefngdbs]

At 2/10/09 01:49 PM, JoS wrote: I think you are kind of missing the point here. Yes it is good to buy local produce and such. That is an individual choice, just like buying a "domestic car" or other items made in your own area/country. There is nothing wrong with you choosing to buy local products.

;;;;
I just didn't go far enough...but I understand what you mean here Jos.
For example we do have boat builders in Nova Scotia...we just can't build them as fast or as cheap as some of the large pleasure/work boat places in upper Canada & the U.S.
There are other problems as well , a majority of Beef sold in Nova Scotia is what they call 'Western Beef' its imported from Western Canada & the U.S. & even Japan (koyoto beef) & it is hurting Nova Scotian Beef producers who for the most part don't have large herds & massive grazing areas...our beef tends to be more organic & because of the small size of the farms more expensive...but its better quality & even tastes better.
This beef problem has also seen trade barriers raised in Western States to keep Canadian Beef (Western) out of Canada, much of it unfounded.
Forest products, there has been many challenges & out right bans by the U.S.

We in Atlantic Canada are having serious problems getting a decent price for fish for our fishermen, the middle men & the retailers are selling the stuff for record prices & paying pennies on the dollar to the fishermen for the product. On top of these problems are the ones caused by 'public opinion' & often its misguided public opinion at that. A perfect example is the sealing industry a sustainable practice which has been going on around here for hundreds of years & the population of animals is huge & sustainable. Also our fur trappers & fur farmers are suffering in Canada because of the highly publisized PR campaigns run by assholes like PETA.
Who for what ever reason can't grasp that trapping is how Canada was built & is sustainable & furs that are farmed...those animals wouldn't have even existed, without a market for the products produced !

[mikailus]

I think it's time trade aught to be limited and citizens of their own country should buy locally. I'm not only a Canadian nationalist and republican (meaning abolish Canada's monarchy) but also an economic nationalist.

NAFTA and FTA and FTAA, as well as foreign banks that house the wealthy's money, have soiled and ruined our country. Rather than investing in national banks, they're putting their money in Swiss bank accounts that are used to evade contributing to the country, either by not buying local or evading taxes.

[morefngdbs]

At 2/17/09 05:42 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: what has south america provided to the world so far other than being ass backward countries?

;;;;;
I believe several of those countries are major producers of Cocaine .

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 2/18/09 07:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 2/17/09 05:42 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: what has south america provided to the world so far other than being ass backward countries?

;;;;;
I believe several of those countries are major producers of Cocaine .

something worthwhile that benefits the world.

[Der-Lowe]

At 2/17/09 05:42 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: if it were not for the Us we wouldnt have electricity cars or airrplanes. what has south america provided to the world so far other than being ass backward countries?

Bypass surgery
Contraceptives
Blood transfusions
Artificial hearts
Houssay
Leloir
Milstein
Miramontes
Tango
Bossa Nova
Cumbia
Samba
Borges
Sábato
Bioy Casares
Cortázar
Octavio Paz
García Márquez
Vargas Llosa
Rodolfo Walsh
José Hernández
Domingo Faustino Sarmiento
Pelé
Maradona
Messi
Batistuta
Riquelme
Heinze
Mascherano
Canigia
Ronaldo
Ronaldinho
Maikon
Kaká
Adriano

etc.

[bcdemon]

At 2/17/09 05:42 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: if it were not for the Us we wouldnt have electricity cars...

If it weren't for the US we would all be driving electric cars right now. We went from having 100% electric cars (EV1) in the 90's, to having hybrids that still use gasoline a decade later.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 2/25/09 08:58 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 2/17/09 05:42 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: if it were not for the Us we wouldnt have electricity cars...

If it weren't for the US we would all be driving electric cars right now. We went from having 100% electric cars (EV1) in the 90's, to having hybrids that still use gasoline a decade later.

iment electricity, i ment and cars

[n64kid]

At 2/25/09 08:35 AM, Der-Lowe wrote: Messi

Woo Barça!

What is it with Brasil and people with onnly one name. Doesn't it get confusing?

[Der-Lowe]

At 2/25/09 08:51 PM, n64kid wrote:

At 2/25/09 08:35 AM, Der-Lowe wrote: Messi

Woo Barça!

What is it with Brasil and people with onnly one name. Doesn't it get confusing?

They don't really, they have really long names. Those are all surnames, or first names. For example, Kaká's actual name is Ricardo Izecson Dos Santos Leite.

lolmilk

American names tend to be simple, like the English language in general. Except for pronunciation, which can be teh bitch.

We got a lot off-topic really fast.

[n64kid]

At 2/25/09 09:29 PM, Der-Lowe wrote:

They don't really, they have really long names. Those are all surnames, or first names. For example, Kaká's actual name is Ricardo Izecson Dos Santos Leite.

Yar, thanks for the clarification.

We got a lot off-topic really fast.

Fútbol is never off topic.