Why is this the exception and not the rule?

I mean, seriously guys, how much bland, computer programmed, training wheels, pre-mastered, "A programmer did all the real work" music can you possibly stand?

Yes. Some guys stand out. Tone carvers. Compression masters. Guys who know what layering is FOR. Yes. Those guys CAN make good techno....

But COME ONE GUYS.

It's a pale imitation of the real thing! Can't you guys at least emulate some turntable magic?

Yes. Yes. I'm a grumpy old man, with old fashioned ways, my heart long turned to stone by time and the fiery pressures of hatred....

But c'mon, guys! LIVE MUSIC!!! IT'S AWESOME! IT'S A MOMENT CAPTURED IN TIME!!!

It's like the difference between Hentai and real porn.

this thread's already been done before.

At 2/5/09 01:36 PM, blackattackbitch wrote: this thread's already been done before.

Are you backseat modding me?

Because this could get very, VERY ironic.

And funny. For me. Not for you.

And yes, I was tempted to unlock that thread because of pure awesome.

Furthermore, I've been making topics like this since the THEY MADE AN AUDIO FORUM. I can't help it you didn't read them years ago.

I've been running a live-only project studio for 8 years. I've got the submissions to back up my arguments. Furthermore, UNLIKE that other topic, I openly admit SOME techno guys ARE talented. My argument is that the people who deserve the credit for the vast majority of techno are the guys WHO WROTE THE SOFTWARE, not the guys who just slapped some stock samples together and called it music.

And real techno guy will agree with me; sounding flat, stock, and digitized SUCKS ASS. I don't like generic bullshit punk rock either, for the very same reasons. There's good music in every genre, but the BEST techno utilizes LIVE SAMPLES.

Indian trance, anyone?

At 2/5/09 01:51 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 2/5/09 01:36 PM, blackattackbitch wrote: this thread's already been done before.

Are you backseat modding me?

No, actually I almost didn't post it, but I figured it would help you to see how that thread turned out, namely with the guy retracting many of his statements.

Because this could get very, VERY ironic.

And funny. For me. Not for you.

Is that a threat? I don't give a shit. Who the fuck do I look like?

And yes, I was tempted to unlock that thread because of pure awesome.

Furthermore, I've been making topics like this since the THEY MADE AN AUDIO FORUM. I can't help it you didn't read them years ago.

Sorry, I don't have time to rack up a 10,000 post count.

I've been running a live-only project studio for 8 years. I've got the submissions to back up my arguments. Furthermore, UNLIKE that other topic, I openly admit SOME techno guys ARE talented. My argument is that the people who deserve the credit for the vast majority of techno are the guys WHO WROTE THE SOFTWARE, not the guys who just slapped some stock samples together and called it music.

Those guys who slapped samples together are practically doing the same thing Beethoven, Mozart, and all those other classical musicians did many years ago on notesheets. Guess they don't deserve credit for their compositions either because other people had to play them.

And real techno guy will agree with me; sounding flat, stock, and digitized SUCKS ASS. I don't like generic bullshit punk rock either, for the very same reasons. There's good music in every genre, but the BEST techno utilizes LIVE SAMPLES.

That's your point of view, but personally I like it better when a person simply shows that they are adept at music theory, arrangement, and landscaping.

Indian trance, anyone?

I actually meant to listen to some of that.

LOL at backseat modding.

Man, I completely see where you are coming from. Personally, if I tried to make something "techno" ish, I wouldn't even know where to start...as far as "real" instruments are concerned. haha. Some good ole turntablism...etc. Some people have the "music" inside but not the means to let it out. So they "one eye" some software and do what they can, due to monetary/time limits...etc.

For me, my guitar and bass are "live". I actually physically handle the instruments...haha. But I have to rely on programs for drums, as I don't know a drummer who'd be willing to help out with some live drums. I've tried starting a band, but all I seem to run into is fucking guitarists.( Those fuckers are a dime a dozen)

hey...don't you play drums? haha.

At 2/5/09 01:51 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: And real techno guy will agree with me; sounding flat, stock, and digitized SUCKS ASS. I don't like generic bullshit punk rock either, for the very same reasons. There's good music in every genre, but the BEST techno utilizes LIVE SAMPLES.

Agree, if not nessecarily the best techno, at least the most livley. But just using analouge synthezisers makes a HUUUUUUUUGHE difference. Sad but tru, I neither have place nor cash to buy myself decent hardware :(

Indian trance, anyone?

Chief Big-Blue-Foot style or something Sanjay would have as a themesong for himself? ^___^

At 2/5/09 01:02 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: I mean, seriously guys, how much bland, computer programmed, training wheels, pre-mastered, "A programmer did all the real work" music can you possibly stand?

Myself? Little. Which is why I'm not an audio mod. NG? They love it.

It's a pale imitation of the real thing! Can't you guys at least emulate some turntable magic?

No, it's not. "Turntable Magic" and "Techno" all evolved from live music. However, on the dancefloor, most people would probably like the music not to stop, right? Well, it's hard to beatmatch with a live drummer playing. So, they used drum machines, simply for dancefloor impact. Disco + Drum Machines = House. From there, it evolved to what you hear on NG. It was never trying to be anything similar to the generic pop you call "rock."

But c'mon, guys! LIVE MUSIC!!! IT'S AWESOME! IT'S A MOMENT CAPTURED IN TIME!!!

This is live music too. It's meant to be mixed, on mixed album, created by real people with Turntable/CDJ skills. Not on 18-track albums like the majority of music that I find at FYE.

It's like the difference between Hentai and real porn.

Most of NG probably prefers Hentai, to be honest.

Anyway, go back to the 80s and get a record deal. I'll keep living in the future.

At 2/5/09 03:28 PM, Nav wrote:

It's a pale imitation of the real thing! Can't you guys at least emulate some turntable magic?

No, it's not. "Turntable Magic" and "Techno" all evolved from live music. However, on the dancefloor, most people would probably like the music not to stop, right? Well, it's hard to beatmatch with a live drummer playing.

ONLY IF THE DRUMMER SUCKS.

ONLY
IF
THE
DRUMMER
SUX

I HAVE done this. I DID do this. I WILL DO THIS AGAIN. I've played LIVE for a TECHNO show. Yes I have. It's only a matter of TALENT. If you suck, you can't play a straight beat. If you can't play a straight beat, you can't play along to recordings. If you can't play along to recordings... you just don't have what it takes.

So, they used drum machines, simply for dancefloor impact. Disco + Drum Machines = House. From there, it evolved to what you hear on NG. It was never trying to be anything similar to the generic pop you call "rock."

I don't call anything rock anymore. That's like saying "The generic pop you call Jazz." I don't listen to a lot of popular music period, rock or otherwise. I like crazy off the wall shit, some techno, some rap, BUT MAINLY actually classical and indie. I play too much grindcore/metal to want to listen to it. I don't want to stagnate artistically, after all.

This is live music too. It's meant to be mixed, on mixed album, created by real people with Turntable/CDJ skills. Not on 18-track albums like the majority of music that I find at FYE.

Oh, the age of the 18 track epic album is over. We all know that. I mourn it's loss... but yeah. It's true. HOWEVER the hour long live show LIVES BABY. OH YEAH!!!

Most of NG probably prefers Hentai, to be honest.

Don't make me cry. I'm a grown ass man.

Anyway, go back to the 80s and get a record deal. I'll keep living in the future.

Live shows have nothing to do with record deals. Live shows are about getting drunk, having a GREAT time, meeting people, AND GETTING YOUR MUSIC OUT OF THE BASEMENT AND INTO THE CLUB!!!!

I don't care what kind of music you make, ALL of us SHOULD want to get our music played at parties/venues.

At 2/5/09 05:52 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: ONLY IF THE DRUMMER SUCKS.

You can't change the drummer on a record. If it's a live recorded record and the drummer sucks, there's nothing you can do.

I don't call anything rock anymore. That's like saying "The generic pop you call Jazz." I don't listen to a lot of popular music period, rock or otherwise. I like crazy off the wall shit, some techno, some rap, BUT MAINLY actually classical and indie. I play too much grindcore/metal to want to listen to it. I don't want to stagnate artistically, after all.

Then why do you call it "techno"? Techno is a specific style, which emerged around the same time as house, except in Detroit, rather than Chicago. It has a very specific history, and very little of the music you hear on Newgrounds is "Techno." In fact, most of the hiphop here is closer to "Techno" because of its use of drum machines and (sometimes) sampling of TRUE techno.

Most of the stuff here is the result of easy program access, teenagers, free time, and experimentation.

Oh, the age of the 18 track epic album is over. We all know that. I mourn it's loss... but yeah. It's true. HOWEVER the hour long live show LIVES BABY. OH YEAH!!!

Just an hour? Hell, I'd go for 2, 3, 4+ hours if I could. It's fun! :D

One thing I like about DJing is that all it takes is stamina and taste. Nothing else, like guitar does. That's also what makes it fun!

Live shows have nothing to do with record deals. Live shows are about getting drunk, having a GREAT time, meeting people, AND GETTING YOUR MUSIC OUT OF THE BASEMENT AND INTO THE CLUB!!!!

Live shows have everything to do with record deals. If your music doesn't perform in the club, then there's little reason why it will perform when released. If your music isn't released, then it wont get played in clubs, because nobody will know about it. It's a vicious world out there.

Frankly, though, I can't dance to subgenres of "rock" music, be it metal, punk, or grindcore.

I don't care what kind of music you make, ALL of us SHOULD want to get our music played at parties/venues.

Yeah. But obviously, most people on NG do not, or they would be learning how to arrange better and make it so friendly for DJs that it'd be retarded NOT to play it in a club.

Sadly, most music on NG, while having its influences from dancefloor music, is incredibly unfit for the dancefloor due to arrangement, production, and overall just suckage... Ask Echoz to learn of the decent stuff.

I'm really starting to like Nav more and more here.

I have to deal with so much of this generalization and bashing of electronic music from people who simply don't understand it, or how its made.

They just call it "techno", which has almost become a derogatory term, to the point where i hardly bother showing anyone anything I make, because they just just assume its a bunch of presets and loops slapped together.

You say the real talent comes from the programmer, well most DECENT artists here program their own synths. I don't mean from scratch using something like synthmaker, but I mean not everyone just reaches for a preset, and slaps together a song in five minutes.

There can also be a certain element of live performance here too, for example, recording something with a midi keyboard.

Sure there are indeed a lot of halfassed artists on this site, that slap together crappy loops in 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean you get to generalize all electronic music based on what you hear on this site.

In the end, its about how the final product feels and sounds. Music is music.

Squarepusher is the way.

Not because I like Funk as a music style, but mainly I agree with FUNKbrs.
Live shows don't have almost anything to do with record deals.
I was making a living out of playing live music, Classical, Jazz, Funk, Rock/Metal, Electro (D'n'B, Chillout, Lounge ...), Blues, Ethno-Jazz.
I've been in at least 10 bands, just two had record deals and those with record deals had the less gigs.
Why, because when you're under a contract with a record label, they kind of control the gigs, when you do thing by yourself you can have what ever you can arrange. The most money I did with a Jazz band (Swinging Train) playing in clubs (2~3 concerts a week).

Also, I've been in several bands that play more "danceable" music. All were with real drummers.
Now is this "fashion" in Romania to have "real" things on stage, so even Clubbin'/DJ'in'/Laptop based music is lately made with real drummers on stage (or clubs) and really, only if the drummer suck big time you can't do this.
I've seen "Asian Dub Foundation" live, real drummer, real bass player.
Massive Attack - real drummer, real bass player.
even Squarepusher's music is recorded live.

How nice sound, let's say, on a chill out track, on top of all electronics an real acoustic guitar or a saxophone (or trumpet) line ... eh ? do we get somewhere ?

or I'll get offended again ?

At 2/5/09 06:06 PM, Nav wrote:

You can't change the drummer on a record. If it's a live recorded record and the drummer sucks, there's nothing you can do.

You're thinking backwards. I'm talking about being behind the music EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. If the drummer sucks... GET A NEW DRUMMER. As in, BEFORE he's recorded! Hide bound, man. You're hidebound. Or possibly vinyl bound, whatever you prefer. You don't have to find it prerecorded, you get a mic, and you record it yourself!

And yes, I'm emphatic, because this fills me with joy. It's my favorite part.

Then why do you call it "techno"? Techno is a specific style, which emerged around the same time as house, except in Detroit, rather than Chicago. It has a very specific history, and very little of the music you hear on Newgrounds is "Techno." In fact, most of the hiphop here is closer to "Techno" because of its use of drum machines and (sometimes) sampling of TRUE techno.

"Techno" whether you like it or not, is music made with techno-logy, as opposed to with instruments. As synthetic music developed, sure, things branched away from the old ways, but it's still music made with only technology and not instruments. Thus, techno.

Most of the stuff here is the result of easy program access, teenagers, free time, and experimentation.

I feel your pain. Shit, I feel MY pain. Because they ARE a pain. Seriously.

One thing I like about DJing is that all it takes is stamina and taste. Nothing else, like guitar does. That's also what makes it fun!

Ha, yeah, that's how I got my buddy Justin to start DJing. He's an industrial/goth freak with great taste. He doesn't make his own music, but you don't have to do that to DJ.

Live shows have everything to do with record deals. If your music doesn't perform in the club, then there's little reason why it will perform when released. If your music isn't released, then it wont get played in clubs, because nobody will know about it. It's a vicious world out there.

I think the idea of "records" at all is outmoded. Most of us just... download stuff. We generally don't pay for it, and when we do, we're going out of our way because we like the artist. If you're getting your own DJ gigs (which is what I'm emphatically proposing) YOU'RE the one hitting the play button in the club. That's what I'm striving to convey in my message. Be the person pushing play. Be the guy with the mics and PA. Sitting in your basement making music with programs just isn't enough.

Frankly, though, I can't dance to subgenres of "rock" music, be it metal, punk, or grindcore.

It's a different kind of dancing. Or rather, MOSHING. I'm a mosh pit freak. I also dance in dance clubs, but I prefer to mosh in metal clubs.

Yeah. But obviously, most people on NG do not, or they would be learning how to arrange better and make it so friendly for DJs that it'd be retarded NOT to play it in a club.

The best will always be better than the rest. But it's being the best that should be strived for, not mere mediocrity. You've got to stand out. Live recording has an air of originality that can't be replicated any other way.

Sadly, most music on NG, while having its influences from dancefloor music, is incredibly unfit for the dancefloor due to arrangement, production, and overall just suckage... Ask Echoz to learn of the decent stuff.

Haha, I know there's great stuff in our local music community (ie, NG). I'd be ignorant to try and suggest otherwise (hai rucklo!)

At 2/5/09 06:08 PM, Bjra wrote: nexus presets > your guitar playing skills

discussion over

Translation:
"I'm unoriginal, and I revel in my mediocrity"

Hey man, live your life like that. I'm not here to judge you. However, I ADVISE you to strive to something greater than that.

At 2/5/09 06:22 PM, Rawmin wrote:

I have to deal with so much of this generalization and bashing of electronic music from people who simply don't understand it, or how its made.

Don't straw man me. Seriously, don't. It's a logical fallacy, dishonest, and closed minded. I don't think ALL "techno" is shit. I think only the top 10% of ANY style is worth listening to. There's a difference between having standards and bashing.

You say the real talent comes from the programmer, well most DECENT artists here program their own synths. I don't mean from scratch using something like synthmaker, but I mean not everyone just reaches for a preset, and slaps together a song in five minutes.

Did I not say this in my opening post? Did I not say I repected "tone carvers" and "compression masters"? Again, don't generalize me. You're making the same mistake you see in others when you do so.

There can also be a certain element of live performance here too, for example, recording something with a midi keyboard.

Or not at all with a midi keyboard. With a real one, and a microphone. To get that live, raw "these vibrations I send out to you from my hands" kind of ethos. It's the difference between blowing a kiss and frenching.

Sure there are indeed a lot of halfassed artists on this site, that slap together crappy loops in 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean you get to generalize all electronic music based on what you hear on this site.

I'm not generalizing. What I'm saying is I'd like to see more LIVE RECORDING. Thread title read get.

In the end, its about how the final product feels and sounds. Music is music.

Agreed.

At 2/5/09 07:44 PM, sorohanro wrote:

I've been in at least 10 bands, just two had record deals and those with record deals had the less gigs.

Record deals are the way of the past >:(

I've always been a live performer anyways. Really, I'm think it's unfair that a man could record ONE TRACK, ONCE, and yet get paid for it every time it's played. You should get paid for the work, not for the royalties.

Also, I've been in several bands that play more "danceable" music. All were with real drummers.
Now is this "fashion" in Romania to have "real" things on stage, so even Clubbin'/DJ'in'/Laptop based music is lately made with real drummers on stage (or clubs) and really, only if the drummer suck big time you can't do this.
I've seen "Asian Dub Foundation" live, real drummer, real bass player.
Massive Attack - real drummer, real bass player.
even Squarepusher's music is recorded live.

Thank you, thank you. I needed someone to back me up on this. I'm NOT trying to exclude electronic music! I'm trying to INCLUDE live aspects!!!

How nice sound, let's say, on a chill out track, on top of all electronics an real acoustic guitar or a saxophone (or trumpet) line ... eh ? do we get somewhere ?

I certainly get somewhere. This is exactly what I'm trying to encourage in the NG music community.

At 2/5/09 08:34 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: "Techno" whether you like it or not, is music made with techno-logy, as opposed to with instruments. As synthetic music developed, sure, things branched away from the old ways, but it's still music made with only technology and not instruments. Thus, techno.

This is the one spot I have to disagree. "Techno" is NOT music made with techno-logy. That's how the gay pop music press uses it. It is, as I explained above, a darker variant of classic house, originating in Detroit in the mid 80s.

The word you're looking for is "Electronic Dance Music" or "EDM." If you call it "Techno" again, then you're not better than those lame noobs who come here asking "HAI PLZ I LEIK TECHNO!"

I've read up extensively on this subject. I'm partway through my second massive book describing the origins of electronic music... I'd say I'm more well-read about Electronic Music than you are.

On all other points, I agree.

I say just love peeps. Love it because it's music.. and people sat around composing it.. whether it was on a guitar.. or a fruit loop. It's a song, by a person.

And lol I was pointed out to know good stuff! Well.. I have spun multiple sets now of just NG music.. some over 4 hours long. And.. I play like 12 instruments.. and as well as being in school bands.. I've also played in bands and performed with those live as well.. so I can definitely appreciate where people are coming from.

However... it's.. sooo much easier to improvise on an instrument for me than to just sit on a program and try to figure things out. With the combination of both it's even better.. but I don't do that enough.. (Needs midi keyboard setup baddd)

And yes.. GOA is awesome creative trance. (from India. originally) I'm definitely a fan.. love spinning it. I also agree.. good drummers can stay on beat indefinitely and have a near-perfect sense of tempo. Some bands suck though. However... even shitty EDM is bound to have a steady beat.. (unless they don't understand a 4/4.. in which case they should never try to make music again and move on in life)

However.. as Nav is saying.. it's just as fair to call all music with guitars rock as it is to call all music made with synthesizers techno.

It's not the same.. and if you want people to learn the different styles of your music.. to be fair you need to respect theirs. Otherwise you're just being a hypocritical douchefaic. >=[

But yes.. to clear it up.. rock /= punk, alternative, post-hardcore, etc.
Techno /= electrohouse, goa, psytrance, hardstyle, etc.

Meh, I was into metal for the best part of a decade. Been playing shows since '04.

And I've only just recently realized how much better EDM is ;)

At 2/5/09 08:34 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

Then why do you call it "techno"? Techno is a specific style, which emerged around the same time as house, except in Detroit, rather than Chicago. It has a very specific history, and very little of the music you hear on Newgrounds is "Techno." In fact, most of the hiphop here is closer to "Techno" because of its use of drum machines and (sometimes) sampling of TRUE techno.

"Techno" whether you like it or not, is music made with techno-logy, as opposed to with instruments. As synthetic music developed, sure, things branched away from the old ways, but it's still music made with only technology and not instruments. Thus, techno.

Okay, since you've evoked the literal definition of technology, let's explore this further. Technology, although you may not know it, consists of every tool, appliance, weapon, etc that man has created. Houses are a type of technology, which contain technology. Technology doesn't just consist of computers and electronics.

So by your definition, all music is techno, since it was all made with some type of technology. Now to read the rest of your post....

At 2/5/09 08:34 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 2/5/09 06:06 PM, Nav wrote: Most of the stuff here is the result of easy program access, teenagers, free time, and experimentation.

I feel your pain. Shit, I feel MY pain. Because they ARE a pain. Seriously.

So teenagers don't have the right to make music? My god you're elitist...

One thing I like about DJing is that all it takes is stamina and taste. Nothing else, like guitar does. That's also what makes it fun!

Ha, yeah, that's how I got my buddy Justin to start DJing. He's an industrial/goth freak with great taste. He doesn't make his own music, but you don't have to do that to DJ.

I actually gotta disagree with both of you. I'd rather transcribe each note than just mess with other people's songs.

Live shows have everything to do with record deals. If your music doesn't perform in the club, then there's little reason why it will perform when released. If your music isn't released, then it wont get played in clubs, because nobody will know about it. It's a vicious world out there.

I think the idea of "records" at all is outmoded. Most of us just... download stuff. We generally don't pay for it, and when we do, we're going out of our way because we like the artist. If you're getting your own DJ gigs (which is what I'm emphatically proposing) YOU'RE the one hitting the play button in the club. That's what I'm striving to convey in my message. Be the person pushing play. Be the guy with the mics and PA. Sitting in your basement making music with programs just isn't enough.

Agreed with some points. Yes you want to be the guy who pushes play in the club, but record deals still do make money for some. It really depends on the terms of the record deal.

Frankly, though, I can't dance to subgenres of "rock" music, be it metal, punk, or grindcore.

It's a different kind of dancing. Or rather, MOSHING. I'm a mosh pit freak. I also dance in dance clubs, but I prefer to mosh in metal clubs.

I'm not a dancing person, I just bob my head and enjoy.

Yeah. But obviously, most people on NG do not, or they would be learning how to arrange better and make it so friendly for DJs that it'd be retarded NOT to play it in a club.

The best will always be better than the rest. But it's being the best that should be strived for, not mere mediocrity. You've got to stand out. Live recording has an air of originality that can't be replicated any other way.

I don't think anyone here strives for only mediocrity. We all strive to be the best. But live recording isn't the only way for an artist to stand out. It's just one of the ways. And besides, what if you blow at playing an instrument but you're excellent at putting together scores on a computer? Live recording is just the performance of a composition, but no matter what, you still need the composition aspect.

At 2/5/09 06:08 PM, Bjra wrote: nexus presets > your guitar playing skills

discussion over

Translation:
"I'm unoriginal, and I revel in my mediocrity"

Hey man, live your life like that. I'm not here to judge you. However, I ADVISE you to strive to something greater than that.

Umm, bjra actually doesn't use that, from what I can tell. But I've never used Nexus, so I don't know. However, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't use that, considering he's definitely not a noob artist.

I'm just assuming though, I could be wrong.

At 2/5/09 06:22 PM, Rawmin wrote:

I have to deal with so much of this generalization and bashing of electronic music from people who simply don't understand it, or how its made.

Don't straw man me. Seriously, don't. It's a logical fallacy, dishonest, and closed minded. I don't think ALL "techno" is shit. I think only the top 10% of ANY style is worth listening to. There's a difference between having standards and bashing.

But your complaints are about most techno music. And judging from comments like "live recording is unique", "programmer did all the work", and other inflammatory comments, you clearly have a bias against techno as a genre. In fact, it seems more like you're hiding behind your above statement "I hate them all equally" just to look slightly better as you solely bash techno. I wasn't born yesterday.

You say the real talent comes from the programmer, well most DECENT artists here program their own synths. I don't mean from scratch using something like synthmaker, but I mean not everyone just reaches for a preset, and slaps together a song in five minutes.

Did I not say this in my opening post? Did I not say I repected "tone carvers" and "compression masters"? Again, don't generalize me. You're making the same mistake you see in others when you do so.

There can also be a certain element of live performance here too, for example, recording something with a midi keyboard.

Or not at all with a midi keyboard. With a real one, and a microphone. To get that live, raw "these vibrations I send out to you from my hands" kind of ethos. It's the difference between blowing a kiss and frenching.

Honestly, why would you record from a real keyboard? It's still technically a preset, just in shittier quality. Your arguments are contradicting themselves. I'll elaborate if you want me to.

At 2/5/09 07:44 PM, sorohanro wrote:

I've been in at least 10 bands, just two had record deals and those with record deals had the less gigs.

Record deals are the way of the past >:(

I've always been a live performer anyways. Really, I'm think it's unfair that a man could record ONE TRACK, ONCE, and yet get paid for it every time it's played. You should get paid for the work, not for the royalties.

Ok, then call me when everyone starts using your track to bring themselves business and money and don't send you even the slightest hint of a cut. Since you want to share your skills so badly, I think that's in order, don't you?

Also, I've been in several bands that play more "danceable" music. All were with real drummers.
Now is this "fashion" in Romania to have "real" things on stage, so even Clubbin'/DJ'in'/Laptop based music is lately made with real drummers on stage (or clubs) and really, only if the drummer suck big time you can't do this.
I've seen "Asian Dub Foundation" live, real drummer, real bass player.
Massive Attack - real drummer, real bass player.
even Squarepusher's music is recorded live.

Thank you, thank you. I needed someone to back me up on this. I'm NOT trying to exclude electronic music! I'm trying to INCLUDE live aspects!!!

There's nothing wrong with that. I respect those who can command an instrument.

How nice sound, let's say, on a chill out track, on top of all electronics an real acoustic guitar or a saxophone (or trumpet) line ... eh ? do we get somewhere ?

I certainly get somewhere. This is exactly what I'm trying to encourage in the NG music community.

Once again, nothing wrong with that. I actually think that would be nice, and would give me something to comment on other than note choice, instrument choice, and arrangement.

At 2/5/09 10:23 PM, blackattackbitch wrote:

Jesus, you're good at taking a hint, huh?

Keep pushing it.

I'M BEING NICE RIGHT NOW.

At 2/5/09 10:33 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 2/5/09 10:23 PM, blackattackbitch wrote:

Jesus, you're good at taking a hint, huh?

Keep pushing it.

I'M BEING NICE RIGHT NOW.

Pushin what? My above post is a completely valid post. Just doesn't agree with your world view.

As I see it, live recording is a good thing, it utilizes both the compositional ability and the performing ability of the artist. But some people can't perform the music that they can compose. And that's where computer software comes in. Barring that you don't use premade loops, anything that you make is completely yours and should be respected simply because of that.

And if you got an issue with me, we can take care of it over PMs, not in the forums.

IM soryy but i will really have to take the place of switzerland on this.
As a drummer i have noticed that a certain feel of playing your instrument feels natural and good to shed off.
AS many of you that are piano players and keyboardists that have legitimate musical intimacy with your instrument.

i dont want to come off as a flower child but!

it takes a certain mind to calculate a song together and it takes another mind to put music into motion as the way an instrumentalist can.
Computer generated piano roll sample cutting is a wizardry that cant be ignored. IT SIMPLY CANT. its a legitimate artform and as a musician that can fel and play, it really is like a calculated work of art. Painters dont just grab a paint brush and move with the brush. They critic over and over on thier own work and set up these many layers of paint and pure brainstorming observation into each picture taken from the eyes or mind and display it for all of us to enjoy.

The piano is the one instrument i wish i was playing all my life. Its calculated organized and if understood flawless with the generation of fail proof feeling soul and cultural spectre of human civilization's musical revolutions.

I play drums and can put some stuff on a keyboard.
But i will never stop playing drums cause sometimes you really just need to tap scrape hit and sometimes smash things in wonderfull succesion of rhythm and ambidextriousness that courses like hot scalding joy thru your veins.

To sum up. WE Here Love Music!

At 2/5/09 05:52 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

ONLY IF THE DRUMMER SUCKS.

ONLY
IF
THE
DRUMMER
SUX

LOL this is the reason why i started playing drums. cause every band i was in playing guitar had a shity drummer .. and it was to be expected.. i wasnt the besrt guitar player.. i had great rhythm but NO FUCKING SENSE of how to do rolls or even scales.. i played guitar like a medicaore bass player.

Yeah seriously if a drummer cant play perfectly to a click track then he is a living oxymoron.
If he cant do fills to a clicktrack he is a living oxymoron.

If he cant make transitions or jam. If he doesnt know what a frikkin paradiddle is....then HIALO

At 2/5/09 10:45 PM, blackattackbitch wrote: But some people can't perform the music that they can compose. And that's where computer software comes in.

Ie, my "training wheels" argument. A guy who can't play a song he composed isn't in the same league as a guy who can. It's not an argument of who should exist, it's an argument over who should be valued.

The program medium, as other users have mentioned, makes things which are VERY easy for a live musician, like tempo changes, pitch bends, and time signature changes, either impossible or very hard. It's like the difference between a statue made out of Legos and a statue made of marble.

At 2/6/09 09:11 AM, Bjra wrote: Translation: I lik-uh duh men. I advice you to insert more P3N0r into said mouth

Hey, I've raped a man before. Being called gay only makes me feel like rapin'.

lol I have never listened to your music, and you probably have never listened to mine. I'm just stirring up shit

Ha, I'm from General. You don't have to "sarcasm" with me, lawlz.

but playing instruments is FUN! ive never been on stage, but I've jammed with a drummer.

That's my point. If you're not sharing your music with other people, using it socially... it's not the same. I think we ALL have a high appreciation from music, but it's SO amplified when it becomes social.

For example, I've played in church bands, and I've played for piercing freak shows. It feels EXACTLY the same to have someone start speaking in tongues, falling out in the floor, and praising God as it does to watch two guys put hooks in their backs attached by chains and play tug of war. Music is supposed to be like a drug, a GOOD drug, that induces introspection and trance/hypnnotism in the listener. When you perform live, you're PART of that trance-state, but when you just compose and then listen back passively... Well, it's like growing a crop of fine hydroponic herbs and then burying it in your backyard and forgetting about it.

I went into the zone, he went into the zone. the music flowed with us, like water. you can get this same state sequencing.

Never mind. I'm preaching to the choir, as it were. >:) <---rare use of happy smiley

truth be told, all the bullshit aside, listening to music is pleasing to the human being. this includes while you are making it too. electronically or instrumentally.

Argh.. I know / don't get the same buzz from writing drum tab for a student as I do from playing that tab over and over again. When you play a piece live multiple times, it's much easier to make all those little tweaks in intensity and feeling. When you let your computer play FOR you, to go back to my earlier metaphor, it's like growing some dro and then sticking it in a smoking machine. The machine doesn't get high; it's kind of a waste, pearls before swine sort of thing. You don't feed caviar to your dog.

good music is good music. bad music is bad music.

I've noticed that every musician in this thread above a certain talent level gets what I'm trying to say, and everyone under that level... doesn't. Music is better as a social activity, and just sitting behind your computer composing is very anti-social. EDM (if I'm going to talk to you guys, I'm going to have to use terms you accept) isn't really "dance" music if noone's dancing, is it?

At 2/6/09 12:57 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Ie, my "training wheels" argument. A guy who can't play a song he composed isn't in the same league as a guy who can. It's not an argument of who should exist, it's an argument over who should be valued.

Not in the same league? Who gives a shit? Value the music.

At 2/6/09 12:57 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Music is better as a social activity, and just sitting behind your computer composing is very anti-social.

Sadly... it is pretty antisocial, at least at first. However, from sitting behind my computer, developing my passion, I ended up meeting people with a similar passion, some of whom I would go onto meet in real life! It just depends on how far you take it.

EDM (if I'm going to talk to you guys, I'm going to have to use terms you accept) isn't really "dance" music if noone's dancing, is it?

The music is made for dancing, but people on NG don't get it. :(

At 2/6/09 12:57 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 2/5/09 10:45 PM, blackattackbitch wrote: But some people can't perform the music that they can compose. And that's where computer software comes in.

Ie, my "training wheels" argument. A guy who can't play a song he composed isn't in the same league as a guy who can. It's not an argument of who should exist, it's an argument over who should be valued.

And once again, I bring back my sheet music reference. So those who compose through sheet music are just crap? And I didn't wholly disagree with your above point anyway, I think those who can both compose and perform are amazing. But I tend to focus more on the composition than the performance.

The program medium, as other users have mentioned, makes things which are VERY easy for a live musician, like tempo changes, pitch bends, and time signature changes, either impossible or very hard. It's like the difference between a statue made out of Legos and a statue made of marble.

Won't argue there, I've had this problem a few times. But one should always remember that when there's a will, there's a way. And about the lego statue thing, there's a guy who does that crap. He was on the Colbert Report one day.

At 2/6/09 09:11 AM, Bjra wrote: but playing instruments is FUN! ive never been on stage, but I've jammed with a drummer.

That's my point. If you're not sharing your music with other people, using it socially... it's not the same. I think we ALL have a high appreciation from music, but it's SO amplified when it becomes social.

That is true, if I didn't have people who really enjoyed my music, I would never have done this stuff in the first place.

For example, I've played in church bands, and I've played for piercing freak shows. It feels EXACTLY the same to have someone start speaking in tongues, falling out in the floor, and praising God as it does to watch two guys put hooks in their backs attached by chains and play tug of war. Music is supposed to be like a drug, a GOOD drug, that induces introspection and trance/hypnnotism in the listener. When you perform live, you're PART of that trance-state, but when you just compose and then listen back passively... Well, it's like growing a crop of fine hydroponic herbs and then burying it in your backyard and forgetting about it.

*Cringe at the thought of the two guys playing tug-o-war*

truth be told, all the bullshit aside, listening to music is pleasing to the human being. this includes while you are making it too. electronically or instrumentally.

Argh.. I know / don't get the same buzz from writing drum tab for a student as I do from playing that tab over and over again. When you play a piece live multiple times, it's much easier to make all those little tweaks in intensity and feeling. When you let your computer play FOR you, to go back to my earlier metaphor, it's like growing some dro and then sticking it in a smoking machine. The machine doesn't get high; it's kind of a waste, pearls before swine sort of thing. You don't feed caviar to your dog.

For me, it's not the performance part that get's me high, its the compositional part that leads to my euphoria. Besides, I actually have the means to get some real dro AND smoke it myself.

good music is good music. bad music is bad music.

I've noticed that every musician in this thread above a certain talent level gets what I'm trying to say, and everyone under that level... doesn't. Music is better as a social activity, and just sitting behind your computer composing is very anti-social. EDM (if I'm going to talk to you guys, I'm going to have to use terms you accept) isn't really "dance" music if noone's dancing, is it?

True, composing alone is anti-social. However, spreading your work around, letting your friends hear it, all that good stuff, is VERY social, as well as gratifying.

Weird, I find myself agreeing with you more and more. That's not good....

Some people have way too much free time, the posts lose the point lately.
The very point was getting better feeling into music, getting more "live" and human touch into the stuff that NG musicians do. The rest of musicians, those which have more money and good producer, they can afford other instrument players in their studios.

The Crystal Method - drum session with Samantha Maloney

See on YouTube

Somehow the discussion got to picking to words (without making any sense... at least to me) and people defending what nobody attacked in the first place :\
Anyway, it's a good opportunity to give again for free my trumpet loops and sample packs.
Trumpet Section in F - 90bpm
Trumpet Section in C - 120bpm
Try those and say if your music got more lively or not ;)

At 2/6/09 05:13 PM, Chronamut wrote: I just look at everything here, esp. nav reading off the history of techno just becaue he read a bunch of big books and thinks he knows what hes talking about - nav, you're no better than erkie is with his philosophy - half the people here just want to make music - they could care less about the other stuff.

This is a classical example of people not reading threads through completely. Only in one or two posts did I state any history... The rest were responding to other things...

This thread is actually ridiculous.

It started off that way, and that's how it's going to continue to trundle.

At 2/6/09 05:45 PM, Chronamut wrote: actually I read every post - the fact that you did at all, and have on other occasions - is whats frustrating. It sets some sort of elitist standard that if someone doesnt delve into the history of music they are inferior.

Alright, so because SOME of my posts reference history, it implies that EVERYONE has to know about it? No. My problem is that he was acting like a hypocrite: defending his definition of "rock" as a general term, yet still continuing to use "techno."

The only standard I'm trying to set is that people do some research before they completely diss on a genre. If someone doesn't even mention "techno," then I'm not going to bother trying to teach them.

Also, FUNK seemed like a decent fellow, who must be at least a LITTLE educated, as he IS a forum mod, so I thought he might possibly appreciate a bit of history. Guess I was wrong.