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At 1/27/09 11:14 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: That is fucking ridiculous. It's not Windows' responsibility to market other companies' products.

Yeah that pretty much summed up what I thought about about it when I read this too.

I see there are some Firefox fanboys here and there's talk about uninstalling IE.

Uninstalling IE is stupid. What you are doing is merely hiding IE and making your computer insecure. If you don't get security updates for IE then your computer is also insecure as some parts of the operating system use IE components(hence, why you can never truly get rid of it).

Some programs rely on an up to date version of IE to use it's components and can be unstable or not work. It is far better to just stop using IE and keep it updated.

Now that that's over with, I'm glad there's talk about separating IE from windows and can see some of the steps already.

The most important is to allow Windows validation through other browsers which has been available for a while and this will hopefully prompt Microsoft to make their update site compatible with other browsers as well or at the least add better functionality into the update software.

At 1/27/09 11:14 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: That is fucking ridiculous. It's not Windows' responsibility to market other companies' products.

Exactly it's not Windows...oh wait, that's a product. MICROSOFT'S ability to market other software.

Internet Explorer is the number one browser for Windows not because it's good (it is good, but that's not the point as so are Firefox, Opera, Chrome and Safari), but because it is bundled and most people use it without trying or even knowing about other browsers. The same is happening fast on Mac OS X for Safari because it is bundled.

By bundling alternatives it promotes usage of alternative software and puts it on same playing field, thereby promoting competition and I'm all for competition in a market in which the leading product gets its position solely on the fact that it's bundled.

At 1/27/09 11:45 AM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: Internet Explorer is the number one browser

Why does that even matter?

At 1/27/09 10:57 AM, CanadianSnowman wrote: Again I state...

You cannot take IE out of newer version of Windows.

Far to many components both third party and Microsoft are build around it.

Are you replying to me?

At 1/27/09 11:08 AM, Alfie wrote: They already said they will disable certain codes in IE, and replace them with either an offline alternative, or an embed (developer end) of the new chosen browser.

...Yeah, so? They still need to develop a way, and I was explaining that it is entirely possible to remove IE from future installs.

Hopefully, MS or somebody will develop a patch for people who've already installed their Windows OS based on the outcome of this situation.

At 1/27/09 11:48 AM, Fyndir wrote:

At 1/27/09 11:45 AM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: Internet Explorer is the number one browser

Why does that even matter?

It doesn't matter that's it the number one browser alone, I was merely trying to explain one of the main reasons why it dominates the browser market and why other browsers just can't compete at the same level.

I don't believe in removing it from Windows without an alternative because you currently need it to find those alternatives so you're pretty much fucked without it but giving a choice within the Windows package itself can overcome this.

At 1/27/09 11:58 AM, Thimbles wrote: Are you replying to me?

I was just letting everyone know that trying to uninstall IE will cause more problems than it solves, that's all.

At 1/27/09 12:12 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: It doesn't matter that's it the number one browser alone, I was merely trying to explain one of the main reasons why it dominates the browser market and why other browsers just can't compete at the same level.

If they want to compete at the same level, they can design their own OS and make it popular.

cry more noobies, the dox eclipse's the earth for a reason, he intents to take it over..

*fox
ahem..

At 1/27/09 12:12 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote:

At 1/27/09 11:58 AM, Thimbles wrote: Are you replying to me?

I was just letting everyone know that trying to uninstall IE will cause more problems than it solves, that's all.

Wrong button? Didn't read the quote? I've done that once, dun worry.

WHat a shit idea, I don't like IE from a web dev point of view, but it's necessary for a lot of microsoft things, such as updates and shit like that, if everyone starts using firefox without realising why they're using it (Better standards than IE and more secure) then they'll be all "WTF THIS SHIT AINT WORKING FUCK YOU FIREFOX!!!".

Ridiculous idea.

At 1/27/09 12:15 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 1/27/09 12:12 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: It doesn't matter that's it the number one browser alone, I was merely trying to explain one of the main reasons why it dominates the browser market and why other browsers just can't compete at the same level.

If they want to compete at the same level, they can design their own OS and make it popular.

That's stupid, designing an OS has nothing to with competing at the same level, it's a different market. The issue is bundling a browser into an OS gives it an advantage that no other browser can have. The EU are trying to create an equal browser market by forcing Microsoft to give a choice.

At 1/27/09 12:20 PM, yhar wrote: WHat a shit idea, I don't like IE from a web dev point of view, but it's necessary for a lot of microsoft things, such as updates and shit like that, if everyone starts using firefox without realising why they're using it (Better standards than IE and more secure) then they'll be all "WTF THIS SHIT AINT WORKING FUCK YOU FIREFOX!!!".

Ridiculous idea.

Vista and Windows 7 (not sure if others do this too) do not rely on Internet Explorer to update. The general public need not worry. As for "shit like that", read the thread.

At 1/27/09 12:22 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: That's stupid, designing an OS has nothing to with competing at the same level

Except that if they designed their own OS they could bundle their browser into it.

The issue is bundling a browser into an OS gives it an advantage that no other browser can have.

Baaaaaaaawwwwwwwww.

Honest to god, you all need to shut the fuck up and the EU needs to suck my dick, Microsoft made a browser and included it in their OS so that people could browse the internet, can you imagine how poorly Windows would be doing right now if it didn't have any browser?

They have the right to include, or leave out, whatever the fuck they want and if you don't like it feel free to use a different product, there is plenty of information on other free browsers and, when you get right down to it, it doesn't fucking matter which browser has the market share.

If people are unsatisfied with the performance of IE, they will find an alternative, nothing that Microsoft does restricts people from using other browsers, all they do is supply you with a browser from which you can change to any other browser you want.

The complaining is, quite blatantly, thinly veiled MS bashing. That is to say, it is a flimsy excuse for attacking MS regardless of what they do in order to take some of their money.

At 1/27/09 09:49 AM, Fyndir wrote: You're a fucking moron.

Insult in lack of other argumentatives? ;)

At 1/27/09 11:45 AM, Snake-Arsenic wrote:

At 1/27/09 11:14 AM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: That is fucking ridiculous. It's not Windows' responsibility to market other companies' products.

Exactly it's not Windows...oh wait, that's a product. MICROSOFT'S ability to market other software.

Oh fuck you.

At 1/27/09 12:29 PM, Fyndir wrote: They have the right to include, or leave out, whatever the fuck they want

WRONG

Research the policies for the EU. Microsoft agreed to them in order to do business there.

The metaphor for this situation is if you were buying a house then the people selling your house would force you to use the shitty old fridge they installed (and you can't remove it because it doubles as a support beam for the house) and any other appliances that can't be removed. What you guys are saying is: They have the right to sell the house however the hell they want to. If you want a new fridge, you're gonna go and have to buy a new one to put beside the pre-installed one.

One of the big reasons that the EU can do this is because microsoft has almost a monopoly on the computer market. If the metaphorical housing company had a monopoly on building houses and you had to buy a house from them, you'd be like "Wtf, let me use my own fridge! Help, i'm being oppressed!". And that's why the EU's rules are in place. One good question though, is if it applys properly to the computer market as well as it does to physical markets (it is most assuredly required for physical markets)

At 1/27/09 12:46 PM, Arby wrote: If you want a new fridge, you're gonna go and have to buy a new one to put beside the pre-installed one.

That makes no sense, since browsers are free, and IE isn't obtrusive or in your way.

It's more like buying a house, and it having pre-installed cable, you can either use the pre-installed cable, or get an alternate system depending on your preference, either way the pre-installed stuff is useful if you choose to use it, but not in the way if you don't.

At 1/27/09 12:46 PM, Arby wrote: One of the big reasons that the EU can do this is because microsoft has almost a monopoly on the computer market.

Oh blow my fucking ass, Microsoft has operating systems on the most computers because they make the best operating system.

It's not some evil plot... I don't understand why this world punishes people for doing well.

At 1/27/09 12:29 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 1/27/09 12:22 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: That's stupid, designing an OS has nothing to with competing at the same level

Except that if they designed their own OS they could bundle their browser into it.

Again, the issue is browser competition. Windows does not compete with browsers, IE does.
Making a product that does not compete with IE is stupid because Mozilla, Opera and Google all have a product that does.

Honest to god, you all need to shut the fuck up and the EU needs to suck my dick, Microsoft made a browser and included it in their OS so that people could browse the internet, can you imagine how poorly Windows would be doing right now if it didn't have any browser?

Read my posts. You'll find that I support IE being bundled into Windows.

They have the right to include, or leave out, whatever the fuck they want and if you don't like it feel free to use a different product, there is plenty of information on other free browsers and, when you get right down to it, it doesn't fucking matter which browser has the market share.

I already said it doesn't matter which browser has the market share. I agree people will find better browsers if they know what good and bad browser performance is. I've already said that a lot of people don't know what good performance is because IE is bundle with Windows and that this trend is happening on Mac OS X users as well.

If people are unsatisfied with the performance of IE, they will find an alternative, nothing that Microsoft does restricts people from using other browsers, all they do is supply you with a browser from which you can change to any other browser you want.

This is true. Of course, many simply accept the performance of IE because they don't what good and bad performance is.

The complaining is, quite blatantly, thinly veiled MS bashing. That is to say, it is a flimsy excuse for attacking MS regardless of what they do in order to take some of their money.

Microsoft won't lose any money by providing an alternative. Of course, you would know know this already and would also know that since Firefox, Opera, Chrome and Safari are free they will not take any money so the argument that people want Microsoft's money is simply not true.

At 1/27/09 01:03 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: the argument that people want Microsoft's money is simply not true.

Yet the EU keeps threatening MS with large fines over trivial bullshit like this.

At 1/27/09 10:21 AM, esko-man wrote: Microsoft doesn't have to sell in Europe.

You're a moron. That's like saying they don't want the cash they get from one of their biggest customer base. Whether or not they'd get fined taking the product out of market in Europe would still be the stupidest fucking thing they could do to themselves, as the fine isn't as much as what the overall amount of cash they get from the markets.

That said, the EU doesn't really have a point before they force Apple to do that too, since it's not like people cannot just download the browser they want. Quite a way to be pricks now that the new Windows 7 is coming by.

At 1/27/09 01:10 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 1/27/09 01:03 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: the argument that people want Microsoft's money is simply not true.

Yet the EU keeps threatening MS with large fines over trivial bullshit like this.

The EU will be getting that money and I don't think any browser companies will.

At 1/27/09 01:18 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: The EU will be getting that money and I don't think any browser companies will.

When did I ever say that any browser companies would? 0_o

At 1/27/09 01:25 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 1/27/09 01:18 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: The EU will be getting that money and I don't think any browser companies will.

When did I ever say that any browser companies would? 0_o

You didn't. Anyway, I'd like to see all OSs provide alternative browsers so Microsoft isn't being treated unfairly.