America and health care system

[Zonked]

Hi !

I'm french, and I think that american health care system is simply stupid and totally absurd. Why ? because societies specialised in "health care" don't help people to heal, they just take them money and denies every asked refunds !

In france, our health care belongs to the state, and it works very good !

People who say that french, canadian and england health care system is bad make me laugh, american system is based on money, not on people's health... Health care private societies just scam people : "we heal you if you're not sick" could be their creed...

That's why I have hope in barack obama. Maybe he will change that stupid system...
Bye.

P.S : if you find my english worst, that's normal, as said at the beginning of the text, I'm french.

[thedo12]

hi, I think you must be new to the political boards.

but any topic on health care, usaly turns into an instant flame war .

anyways, my opinion that having both in one country is the best solution.
-becuase there competition is "free", private clinics have to lower there prices
-having low price private clinics takes a load off the state run health care

[Proteas]

At 1/23/09 10:20 AM, Zonked wrote: Why ? because societies specialised in "health care" don't help people to heal, they just take them money and denies every asked refunds !

Uh huh.

And what great medical technologies have the french come up with in the last 20 years?

[Der-Lowe]

There's a paper by Robert H Frank on the health care issue that I would like to share with you.
That's all :)

[n64kid]

At 1/23/09 11:03 AM, thedo12 wrote:

Hey do you Canucks still have that ambulance stacking problem?

[thedo12]

At 1/23/09 12:55 PM, n64kid wrote:

At 1/23/09 11:03 AM, thedo12 wrote:

Hey do you Canucks still have that ambulance stacking problem?

never heard of it, i have heard of a shortage of hospitable beds though.

[Zonked]

At 1/23/09 12:28 PM, Proteas wrote: Uh huh.

And what great medical technologies have the french come up with in the last 20 years?

I didn't say that americans didn't make any medical discovers last 20 years (and I don't say that frenches made big medical discovers), I just say that your health care system is bad, United states is the world richest state, and some people continue to think that "health care system belonging to the state" = communism...

[n64kid]

At 1/23/09 03:45 PM, thedo12 wrote:

never heard of it, i have heard of a shortage of hospitable beds though.

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/8795 49

Read HamandChees3's post.

[Patton3]

At 1/23/09 12:28 PM, Proteas wrote:

At 1/23/09 10:20 AM, Zonked wrote: Why ? because societies specialised in "health care" don't help people to heal, they just take them money and denies every asked refunds !

Uh huh.

And what great medical technologies have the french come up with in the last 20 years?

I'm pretty sure there haven't been many major leaps forward by the French in the medical field since Louis Pasteur. He invented several vaccines, savved France's wine industry, and invented the pasteurization process.

[Light]

At 1/23/09 04:54 PM, Zonked wrote:

and some people continue to think that "health care system belonging to the state" = communism...

Really? SOme people? By definition, any enterprise/money system(Damn I can't get my vocabulary straight) that is run by the state is considered socialistic/communistic. Just look it up and you'll see that the US is right and you frenchies are wrong.

So are the canadians, the british, etc.

[Freedomblades]

At 1/23/09 07:22 PM, jedi-master wrote:

At 1/23/09 04:54 PM, Zonked wrote:

and some people continue to think that "health care system belonging to the state" = communism...

Really? SOme people? By definition, any enterprise/money system(Damn I can't get my vocabulary straight) that is run by the state is considered socialistic/communistic. Just look it up and you'll see that the US is right and you frenchies are wrong.

So are the canadians, the british, etc.

mmm..... I disagree with you. Britian, France, and Canada have probably the best medical care going. So what if we have Socalist or Communist traits? Democracy is not perfect nor is Communism or Socalism but when you combine 3 into one you can make a much better government. I really dont see why your against it.

Also the medical advancements thing is stupid. i dont give a crap. your the most powerful country in the world and have almost unlimited funds.

[HandsomePete]

At 1/23/09 07:22 PM, jedi-master wrote:

At 1/23/09 04:54 PM, Zonked wrote:

and some people continue to think that "health care system belonging to the state" = communism...

Really? SOme people? By definition, any enterprise/money system(Damn I can't get my vocabulary straight) that is run by the state is considered socialistic/communistic. Just look it up and you'll see that the US is right and you frenchies are wrong.

So are the canadians, the british, etc.

True enough. So are government subsidies to institutions like the oil companies, banks and farms. The United States has a more communist agricultural system than China right now. Seriously.
And I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE it when Americans try to say "Change our health care system? You wanna end up like England, or Canada, or even worse FRANCE?" Shall we take a look at the numbers?
World Health Organization Rankings

God, I'd HATE to be number 1, and not 37. Granted this is a little dated now, but the vast majority of major industrialized nations in the Western world have socialized medicine, and their systems are still considered far superior, and America's is still considered even by the most positive estimates as troubled.

[Dawnslayer]

I sometimes think that those Americans who support the health care system as it is, don't have everyday health complications (or financially support someone who does). I'd love for someone here to prove me wrong, but as a type I diabetic and an American I advocate that health care is a human right, and I'd rather be paying for it in government taxes to ensure myself and others get what we need than paying a health insurance company to (barely) cover the expenses.

[HandsomePete]

At 1/23/09 11:51 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: I sometimes think that those Americans who support the health care system as it is, don't have everyday health complications (or financially support someone who does). I'd love for someone here to prove me wrong, but as a type I diabetic and an American I advocate that health care is a human right, and I'd rather be paying for it in government taxes to ensure myself and others get what we need than paying a health insurance company to (barely) cover the expenses.

It seems to me that the government should be paying for things that are designed to help keep people alive and productive citizens, like:
Defense
Police
Fire
Schools
Roads
... we need all of these things to get by, why not health care?
The budget is really easier to balance than they make it out to be. If politicians weren't so busy skimming money off of the basic essentials, we could easily afford universal health care. But they also need to quit calling it communist, since that's apparently worse to say than Fuck in a public forum.

[Proteas]

At 1/23/09 04:54 PM, Zonked wrote: I just say that your health care system is bad, United states is the world richest state, and some people continue to think that "health care system belonging to the state" = communism...

There are always going to be people that think that, and you saying that our health care system sucks while providing no proof will not change that any. The onus is on you to convince the rest of us why our health care system sucks.

At 1/23/09 11:56 PM, HandsomePete wrote: ... we need all of these things to get by, why not health care?

As one poster said; you can't ensure that everyone is universally happy, but you can ensure everyone is equal in their misery.

[Dawnslayer]

At 1/23/09 11:56 PM, HandsomePete wrote: The budget is really easier to balance than they make it out to be. If politicians weren't so busy skimming money off of the basic essentials, we could easily afford universal health care. But they also need to quit calling it communist, since that's apparently worse to say than Fuck in a public forum.

The majority of Americans were actually in favor of universal health care, until Reagan called it the C-word in a radio address. (This was before he was President...back in the '50's or '60's.)

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 1/23/09 11:56 PM, HandsomePete wrote:

At 1/23/09 11:51 PM, Dawnslayer wrote:

It seems to me that the government should be paying for things that are designed to help keep people alive and productive citizens, like:
Defense
Police
Fire
Schools
Roads
... we need all of these things to get by, why not health care?

Because the government doesn't pay for it: you pay for it, I pay for it, John the plumber pays for it. The American government doesn't pay for anything, now a days it just destroys our credit and still taxes the shit out of us.

People seem to forgot many things in this wonderfull nation. That the government doesn't pay for a thing, that people seem to be comfortable enought to give away more of thier own liberty to the federal government, and that somehow health care is a right.

You have the right to advance to find a well paying job that provides healthcare, you have the right to have an actual job that the market wants and thus will pay willingly for.
You don't have a right to expect the American taxpayer to pay for your own incompetence and poor decesions.

The budget is really easier to balance than they make it out to be. If politicians weren't so busy skimming money off of the basic essentials, we could easily afford universal health care. But they also need to quit calling it communist, since that's apparently worse to say than Fuck in a public forum.

Thank you Mr. Greenspan, I'm sure President Obama has already called you for help on the national budget.

[Proteas]

At 1/23/09 10:36 PM, HandsomePete wrote: World Health Organization Rankings

And could somebody PLEASE explain the finer points of these graphs and what they respresent? Because all I see is that we're ranked, not how. It seems a bit arbitrary to me, especially seeing as how the only viable piece of supporting evidence is the life expentancy and gross expenditure charts.

At 1/24/09 12:16 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: You don't have a right to expect the American taxpayer to pay for your own incompetence and poor decesions.

.... I love you.

[Dawnslayer]

At 1/24/09 12:16 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 1/23/09 11:56 PM, HandsomePete wrote:

People seem to forgot many things in this wonderfull nation. That the government doesn't pay for a thing, that people seem to be comfortable enought to give away more of thier own liberty to the federal government, and that somehow health care is a right.

You have the right to advance to find a well paying job that provides healthcare, you have the right to have an actual job that the market wants and thus will pay willingly for.
You don't have a right to expect the American taxpayer to pay for your own incompetence and poor decesions.

So let me see if I understand you correctly: because I was born with a chronic, genetically inherited disease, which is lethal if left untreated, I am incompetent and in no position to ask for help?

[HandsomePete]

At 1/24/09 12:16 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Because the government doesn't pay for it: you pay for it, I pay for it, John the plumber pays for it. The American government doesn't pay for anything, now a days it just destroys our credit and still taxes the shit out of us.

I've said this like 80 times today in different thread, but people have no idea how "Communist" we already are. We give more subsidies to companies, farms, etc. than China.

People seem to forgot many things in this wonderfull nation. That the government doesn't pay for a thing, that people seem to be comfortable enought to give away more of thier own liberty to the federal government, and that somehow health care is a right.

Going with what I just said, I think that health care should be a right, just as a military or police force would be. Give me any reason why the country wouldn't benefit from everyone having health care?

You have the right to advance to find a well paying job that provides healthcare, you have the right to have an actual job that the market wants and thus will pay willingly for.
You don't have a right to expect the American taxpayer to pay for your own incompetence and poor decesions.

Why should your job pay for your healthcare? How does that make more sense than having your government provide it? I seriously think the reason you say that is because that's what you've been told to think and you've never questioned it. The healthier one person is, the less risk to those around them.
And I pay for a criminals poor decisions in life in paying for the police and the jail he stays in. I pay to feed him. I pay for his health care in there. If someone is careless and drops a match in a paper factory, and it burns down, I'm paying for the fire department to put it out.

[Brick-top]

Pros on American healthcare:
It's a wealthy nation and can throw money into medical research.

Cons on American healthcare:
Americans don't like the idea of paying taxes for universal healthcare.

That's about all that's going to be said in this thread.

[butters7]

At 1/23/09 10:20 AM, Zonked wrote: Hi !

I'm french, and I think that american health care system is simply stupid and totally absurd. Why ? because societies specialised in "health care" don't help people to heal, they just take them money and denies every asked refunds !

In france, our health care belongs to the state, and it works very good !

People who say that french, canadian and england health care system is bad make me laugh, american system is based on money, not on people's health... Health care private societies just scam people : "we heal you if you're not sick" could be their creed...

That's why I have hope in barack obama. Maybe he will change that stupid system...
Bye.

P.S : if you find my english worst, that's normal, as said at the beginning of the text, I'm french.

Zonked, I am an American citizen, And like you I appose the health system we have. Currently, our health care system is mandated by these huge insurance corperations who with this power given by "Dubya" can create a flawed system thats only goal is to make as much profit as possible. I feel a universal heath care is need so the poor and the weak will be allowed the chance they deserve of having the same health care as anyone else. By having universal health care we will not fall subject to socalism like the Mc Cain campain wanted us to believe. ( Keep in mind early in the campain Palin made mention of distributing the wealth in Alaska to all). I feel it is benifituary and our only solution if we ever want to healthcare we desperately need,

[morefngdbs]

Here's another way of looking at it boy's & girl's...
Everyone gets sick or in an accident , hurt at least once...if your like me, more than once in your life.
The taxes you pay, if some of that tax money pays for Health Care...it's just like putting 'MONEY IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT !
Get IT ?
When you do break your leg or get appendicits, whatever...you go to the Hospital...they fix you .
You go home & there is no $50,000 + hospital bill coming to your door.

See how simple that works.
Even if it cost $350,000 to fix you & in all your lifetime you haven't paid $50,000 in taxes...it don't matter. Your alive & you'll continue to help fund the system.

I can't believe Americans will put 1million + of your citizens in prison...& they get complete & free health care & you all pay for it !
But you don't want to try to help those who NOT CRIMINALS BUT,are ill & not rich enough to pay to get help...It frankly boogles my mind!

[bcdemon]

At 1/23/09 11:03 AM, thedo12 wrote: but any topic on health care, usaly turns into an instant flame war .

Cellardoor6 has gone AWOL, this thread should stay relatively calm.

At 1/24/09 09:12 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Here's another way of looking at it boy's & girl's...
It frankly boogles my mind!

I have to agree with mornfngdbs. US government spends more of AMERICANS TAX DOLLARS per capita on healthcare than countries with universal healthcare, and the American taxpayer is happy to shell out additional pocket dollars, for healthcare.

[Proteas]

At 1/24/09 12:34 AM, HandsomePete wrote: Why should your job pay for your healthcare? How does that make more sense than having your government provide it?

Because when you get it through your job, you get health insurance in a group discount. I'm paying about $30 a week through work for my health insurance (single with no dependents), compared to my brother who was paying out about $1,000 a month to the government's COBRA health insurance program when he was between jobs (again, single with no dependents).

Now, as someone who has seen what government sponsored healthcare in the states looks like, I'd rather pay that extra thirty dollars a week and have Blue Cross Blue Shield than not pay that thirty bucks and let the government run my healthcare.

And I pay for a criminals poor decisions in life in paying for the police and the jail he stays in. I pay to feed him. I pay for his health care in there.

Bad comparison. You're paying for his punishment through his incarceration, ensuring his good health ensures that he lives out his days as miserable as possible.

If someone is careless and drops a match in a paper factory, and it burns down, I'm paying for the fire department to put it out.

.... who the fuck carries matches in a paper factory? That's not carelessness, that's deviant behavior indicative of a penchant for pyromania.

At 1/24/09 09:46 AM, bcdemon wrote: and the American taxpayer is happy to shell out additional pocket dollars, for healthcare.

Because, as I pointed out, the American version of universal health care is CRAP. I'd gladly pay extra to have the health care I want as apposed to the health care the government thinks I need.

[morefngdbs]

At 1/23/09 12:55 PM, n64kid wrote: Hey do you Canucks still have that ambulance stacking problem?

;;;;;;
We just had an alert in a local emergency ward...18 people in serious condition. No beds available in Emerg. people on stretchers in hallways etc.
6 ambulances outside with no where to put the patients.

They called an alert...the kind used in terrorist attack or airline disaster.
They were able to triage the people in the EMERGENCY WARD WAITING ROOM. 3/4's of them had colds...sniffles...aches & pains that DID NOT REQUIRE EMERGENCY CARE ! ! ! ! !

So under the power of an alert status...they sent them home .
They were then able to concentrate on the real emergencies...broken hip, several car accident victims, pnemonia, heart patients etc....REAL EMERGENCIES. Everyone was in care or admitted within 3 hours no one was left.
The problem with how 'long wait times' ,ambulance stacking, are large crowds in emergency rooms with fucking nothing wrong with them...but they want to see a doctor.

Well, we're working on changing people's outlook, to going to a clinic, or seeing their own doctor for the ill's that while inconvient...they are not emergencies .

There are now several in this area (Halifax Regional Municipality) that do not book appointments , you can go in off the street with a hang nail, or a runny nose & you'll get to see a doctor. Keeps the nutbars out of the emergency rooms & gives the emergency rooms a place to send these poor retarded misinformed masses.

[silverman10]

Yes but the French make sure they get the biggest cut of the EU cash, instead of sharing equaly so of course their healthcare is going to be better.

[Minarchist]

I always find the discussion on health care in the US to be incredibly sad. On one side you have the proponents of socialized medicine who claim that the US system is incredibly flawed and the only solution being more government. On the other side you have proponents of the US system who defend it as a free market practice.

Both sides are wrong. The health care industry is perhaps the most regulated of all industries. Praising health care in the US for its market virtues is like praising David Hasselhoff for his sobriety. With increasing regulations we've been met by increasing prices and decreasing prevalence of health care coverage. Today it has become almost impossible for startups in the medical industry to mature without massive amounts of capital backing them. Furthermore, we've seen a huge decline in charity hospitals. In response to problems like high prices we've seen the government give money to the corporations to bring down prices or give money to individuals to afford the health care. The effect has been to INCREASE prices because while the market price has decreased negligibly, GOVERNMENT SPENDING IS A PRICE FOR CONSUMERS.

No, the US system is NOT good, but the proponents of government-provided health care are wrong that further regulation will help. They're only asking for more of the same: higher prices, less innovation and the absence of charity.

As a quick note on the morality of government action, people are quick to distance themselves from their government when it does something reprehensible (and there are countless instances throughout history) and quick to take pride in their government when it does something they view as moral. The truth is THERE IS NO MORALITY IN GOVERNMENT ACTION. Consider the differences between charity and government action to provide health care for the poor. In one case, individuals decide freely to help others. In the other case, government places a gun to their head and forces them to do it or just seizes their assets and does it (this is not allegorical; THIS IS, IN ESSENCE, TAXATION AND INFLATION). In the former case, it's clear that you've done something "moral" (Please note I use this term weakly as I acknowledge there are countless views on morality), but in the latter case, have you done anything moral? Has government done anything moral? Clearly not.

I've digressed a bit. We must accept that things happen to us that are beyond anyone's control, but we do not have an entitlement to any care or right to take from others to obtain that care. There is a lot of goodness in people though, and as this thread shows, there are many people that want to see everyone receive care. If you would just spend that money on achieving your objective rather than lobbying government to force everyone to, you'd go a long way to actually achieving your goal. But it is not economical (realistic) that everyone be provided the same level of care as those with the best, but over time, without a doubt, market forces will bring everyone's level of care up to and beyond the top level today at a rate much faster than any number of government bureaucrats.

As for Obama, he will not introduce socialized medicine. The US government is BROKE. It is in an incredible amount of debt just to perpetuate high prices on assets with little value. You may think that we could just raise taxes to fund health care, but you're ignoring the fact that government already taxes you through inflation to pay for its projects. The necessary solution then is not to increase taxes or inflate more, but rather to CUT SPENDING. Government has already grown to be an uneconomical burden on society, so it can either continue to grow to the point of complete collapse or responsibly scale back now. Please weigh these considerations before you continue to demand your "free" health care that you are somehow entitled to because you were born with a certain number of chromosomes.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 1/24/09 12:30 AM, Dawnslayer wrote:

At 1/24/09 12:16 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 1/23/09 11:56 PM, HandsomePete wrote:

So let me see if I understand you correctly: because I was born with a chronic, genetically inherited disease, which is lethal if left untreated, I am incompetent and in no position to ask for help?

No please ask for help. Personally, if a charity or organisation was started up, I would love to donate money to it and willingly help you. I would also like to point out that church services, community aid organisations and private enterprises also perform these services as well.

You are one of the few who are already fucked by genetics and thus have no errors on your side from lack of effort or incentive. Private aid, charities and organisations are what you want, not government forced socialism.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 1/24/09 12:34 AM, HandsomePete wrote:

At 1/24/09 12:16 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

I've said this like 80 times today in different thread, but people have no idea how "Communist" we already are. We give more subsidies to companies, farms, etc. than China.

And have I stated that I support farm subsidies and the massive power that farming unions and organisations have over politicians in Washington.
No, I have not. I do not support subsidies, nor do I support an organisation that attempts to install an unatural price for any product.

Going with what I just said, I think that health care should be a right, just as a military or police force would be. Give me any reason why the country wouldn't benefit from everyone having health care?

Extremely large big government, increased taxation, an extensive amount of power concentrated in the exectutive government, loss of personal liberty, and simple market economics.

Why should your job pay for your healthcare? How does that make more sense than having your government provide it? I seriously think the reason you say that is because that's what you've been told to think and you've never questioned it. The healthier one person is, the less risk to those around them.

Your job shouldn't be forced to provide you healthcare, as in no business should. But if a business, with the wonders of supply and demand, wishes to attract better workers and more deseriable workers to thier business they will.
And likewise, you can presume whatever you wish about how I came to my opinions or why I defend them, I care not nor does it add wieght to the argument. If it makes you feel better by demonizing me as a sheep, so be it.

And I pay for a criminals poor decisions in life in paying for the police and the jail he stays in. I pay to feed him. I pay for his health care in there. If someone is careless and drops a match in a paper factory, and it burns down, I'm paying for the fire department to put it out.

Your paying for justice to be enforced, and your paying for rights that your side of the political spectrum usually screams about that they have.
If it makes you feel better, I have no qualms about restricting the rights of prisoners any more then the next person. They lost most of thier rights in due process.