Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 1/8/09 04:12 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 1/7/09 09:00 PM, adrshepard wrote: What the hell is Little Imam? I searched the web, even including "war crime" in the query, yet I only get footage of some 5 year old with a turban.

Read this.

1001.

At 1/8/09 04:33 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/8/09 04:12 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 1/7/09 09:00 PM, adrshepard wrote: What the hell is Little Imam? I searched the web, even including "war crime" in the query, yet I only get footage of some 5 year old with a turban.

Read this.

1001.

Yeah, it's getting about as old as your sig. Except the story of Iman is true, your sig? Not so much.

At 1/8/09 10:04 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 1/8/09 04:33 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/8/09 04:12 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 1/7/09 09:00 PM, adrshepard wrote: What the hell is Little Imam? I searched the web, even including "war crime" in the query, yet I only get footage of some 5 year old with a turban.

Read this.

1001.

Yeah, it's getting about as old as your sig. Except the story of Iman is true, your sig? Not so much.

hamas shoot rockets from the school, they used a public place where their children are going to hide - fact

At 1/8/09 10:07 AM, Snicp wrote: hamas shoot rockets from the school, they used a public place where their children are going to hide - fact

Let's look at what we have so far shall we?

First, the IDF says militants fired from inside the school compound, then they said the militants fried from outside the school complex. Two Jabalya residents talked to the Associated Press by phone on condition of anonymity and said that militants had been firing mortars from a street near the school.

The UN says that "We've spoken to eyewitnesses, we've spoken to some of the 1,300 [people who] took refuge there, we have a very experienced investigator who went up there, he talked to everyone we can get a hold of", they are 99.9% sure militants were not firing from the school.

According to the IDF, the dead included members of the Hamas
rocket cell, including senior operatives Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar.

But those two residents who spoke to an AP reporter by phone said the two brothers were known to be low-level Hamas militants.

The IDF was also unable to say how they were able to name the militants. Troops did not visit the school after the attack, nor did the IDF have access to a casualty list from Gaza's hospitals.

All we do know for fact is, the IDF bombed a UN school which was used to house Palestinians seeking shelter from the hostilities. We will have to wait for more concrete information.

UN are stopping all aid now because of Israeli misfire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_
east/7818577.stm

Israel are digging a deeper hole for themselves.

You, before my post:

At 1/7/09 08:30 PM, bcdemon wrote: Darn tootin. It's clear the Israelis are targeting civilians, considering they had the GPS coordinates of the UN school, they knew there were piles of people there seeking refuge. Everything is clear as a bell.

You, after my post:

At 1/8/09 11:22 AM, bcdemon wrote: All we do know for fact is, the IDF bombed a UN school which was used to house Palestinians seeking shelter from the hostilities. We will have to wait for more concrete information.

Seriously? You can't admit that I may have persuaded you at all? I'm trying to be honest and open, here. I'll even say that, judging from the "little Iman" article, it's hard to argue that the guy's actions were perfectly legitimate. It still doesn't suggest an unofficial policy of brutality. Neither do the other links you posted conclusively show that the Israelis could have known that the militants were not in the school. I'd like to know where and how far away the street is, and where the Israelis were when they took fire.

At 1/8/09 03:23 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: Oh ya Israel gave Gaza to the palestinians from the kindness of their hearts. Force them out of their homes, their country, their way of life, then from the kindness of Israel's heart give them Gaza... thats a good way to look at it.

That was over 50 years ago. If the Palestinians can't accept a generous show of good faith, then that's their problem.

At 1/8/09 04:43 PM, Ledgey wrote: UN are stopping all aid now because of Israeli misfire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_
east/7818577.stm
Israel are digging a deeper hole for themselves.

What did you expect? The UN is full of pussies. They whine and complain about the plight of Palestinians, yet one or two of its people are killed in accidents and they pull out. At the same time, they expect Israel to suffer from Hamas rocket attacks, which have killed dozens over the past several months, not do anything to stop it, and give Hamas a propaganda victory in the meantime. They, and the rest of the protesting world, prolong the existence of Hamas by painting those who would stamp them out as the bad guys. It's absolutely sickening how easily these people give in to what is basically extortion and hostage-taking.

What did you expect? The UN is full of pussies. They whine and complain about the plight of Palestinians, yet one or two of its people are killed in accidents and they pull out. At the same time, they expect Israel to suffer from Hamas rocket attacks, which have killed dozens over the past several months

dozens? dozens? last time i checked it was 4, i don't applaud the strikes against israel, but you have to understand why hamas fired the rockets. The palestinian death toll is reaching 700 don't compare 4 to 700

At 1/8/09 06:00 PM, sora-key wrote: dozens? dozens? last time i checked it was 4, i don't applaud the strikes against israel, but you have to understand why hamas fired the rockets. The palestinian death toll is reaching 700 don't compare 4 to 700

Forgive me, it was not several months but over the past 4 years during which a few dozen Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets and mortars. Over the past 8 years Hamas has launched 3000 rockets and 2500 mortar strikes.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obs tacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+
2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and +Terrorism+sinc.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,4738 68,00.html

At 1/8/09 05:31 PM, adrshepard wrote: What did you expect? The UN is full of pussies. They whine and complain about the plight of Palestinians, yet one or two of its people are killed in accidents and they pull out.

The UN is delivering aid to members of a foreign nation, out of their dedication to remaining decent human beings in one of the most dangerous and corrupt areas of the modern world. What exactly have you done lately that enables you to proclaim yourself more courageous?

At 1/8/09 07:57 PM, Musician wrote:

At 1/8/09 05:31 PM, adrshepard wrote: What did you expect? The UN is full of pussies. They whine and complain about the plight of Palestinians, yet one or two of its people are killed in accidents and they pull out.

The UN is delivering aid to members of a foreign nation, out of their dedication to remaining decent human beings in one of the most dangerous and corrupt areas of the modern world. What exactly have you done lately that enables you to proclaim yourself more courageous?

Musician's right. The UN is a peacekeeping association- it acts as a forum for diplomacy, and will sometimes send in troops to stop total cluster@#$%s of nations from exploding. This is not to promote any faction, it is for humanitarian purposes. UN peacekeeping troops do not fight in wars- they prevent civil wars.

The UN is complaining because the Israelis have given them only 3 hours a day to get supplies in. They have a right to complain. This is not enough time to bring aid to the people. I have confirmation on that.

If Israel doesn't want to look like the bad guy, here are some tips:
Allow humanitary aid, morons... Hamas will not attack their own aid.
Don't allow civilian buildings to be caught in crossfire. Pull out!
Just don't raid Palestine in the first place. Try propaganda bombing, then slowly de-militarizing the border. Or just dig your 80ft deep moat. (Google it)

Oh yeah, and I thought of this while I was in the shower:

The Palestinians don't want all Jews dead. They would be perfectly fine if the Israelis just went to the moon.

Oh, and I just found this. Just came out in today's Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/world/
middleeast/08mideast.html?hp

130 Children...

At 1/8/09 08:16 PM, RWT wrote: 130 Children...

its their parents responsibility to protect them believe me israel dont bombing random houses in gaza
and your a racist.

At 1/8/09 08:20 PM, Snicp wrote:

At 1/8/09 08:16 PM, RWT wrote: 130 Children...

its their parents responsibility to protect them believe me israel dont bombing random houses in gaza
and your a racist.

1. I don't think you can spin it to blame the palestinians for the child death toll being equivalent to the Hamas death toll.

2. How am I racist? Do you mean my sig? My sig is somewhat of a joke, but I know what happened in '68. My family was in D.C.

At 1/8/09 08:16 PM, RWT wrote: Musician's right. The UN is a peacekeeping association- it acts as a forum for diplomacy, and will sometimes send in troops to stop total cluster@#$%s of nations from exploding. This is not to promote any faction, it is for humanitarian purposes. UN peacekeeping troops do not fight in wars- they prevent civil wars.

They are small minded. Just "Stopping fire" would be devastating and will result in more powerful and dangerous Hamas.

The UN is complaining because the Israelis have given them only 3 hours a day to get supplies in. They have a right to complain. This is not enough time to bring aid to the people. I have confirmation on that.

ROFL. First, these people chose Hamas.
Secondly, 3 hours? in a war? In 3 hours Hamas militants can put many sidebombs and hide themselves in civilian homes. 6 hours? 8 hours? How much do you want.
The war should stop when Hamas are off.

If Israel doesn't want to look like the bad guy, here are some tips:
Allow humanitary aid, morons... Hamas will not attack their own aid.

Oh really? Actually they do. All the time.. (Again people suffer from lack of knowledge on Hamas and Palestinian terrorists)
Israel doesn't really gives a fuck about looking like the bad guy.
Israel is the good guy, and people like you are preventing them from fighting pure evil, Hamas.

Don't allow civilian buildings to be caught in crossfire. Pull out!

ISRAEL WAS GETTING 80 ROCKETS A DAY, AND HAMAS WERE ARMING THEMSELVES LIKE FUCK. THE INVASION HAPPENED FOR A REASON.
"CIVILIAN BUILDINGS" ARE CAUGHT IN FIRE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CIVILIAN BUILDINGS, HAMAS ARE USING THEM AS SHIELDS.
Fuck, Hamas are kidnapping children (Palestinian, yes, they claim to protect) to escort their squads, to stop IDF from attacking.

Just don't raid Palestine in the first place.

Israel was not raiding Palestine. The majority of "Palestine" are living well. In the West Bank, because there is no Hamas there.
Israel raided Gaza, that shot 3200 rockets at Israel the last 3 years.

Try propaganda bombing, then slowly de-militarizing the border. Or just dig your 80ft deep moat. (Google it)

Thanks to General RWT on his professional analysis of the situation, back to you Tom.

Oh yeah, and I thought of this while I was in the shower:

The Palestinians don't want all Jews dead. They would be perfectly fine if the Israelis just went to the moon.

They want them dead. The funny thing here, is that they still call for the destruction of Israel like they did in 1948, when the Arabs declared full scale war against new independent Israel. Only today Israel is much more powerful.

Oh, and I just found this. Just came out in today's Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/world/
middleeast/08mideast.html?hp

130 Children...

Blame Hamas.

At 1/8/09 08:37 PM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/8/09 08:16 PM, RWT wrote: Musician's right. The UN is a peacekeeping association- it acts as a forum for diplomacy, and will sometimes send in troops to stop total cluster@#$%s of nations from exploding. This is not to promote any faction, it is for humanitarian purposes. UN peacekeeping troops do not fight in wars- they prevent civil wars.

They are small minded. Just "Stopping fire" would be devastating and will result in more powerful and dangerous Hamas.

The issue is that Israel is an invader with no homeland to fall back to. The Israelis can't be driven out, logically.

The UN is complaining because the Israelis have given them only 3 hours a day to get supplies in. They have a right to complain. This is not enough time to bring aid to the people. I have confirmation on that.

ROFL. First, these people chose Hamas.
Secondly, 3 hours? in a war? In 3 hours Hamas militants can put many sidebombs and hide themselves in civilian homes. 6 hours? 8 hours? How much do you want.
The war should stop when Hamas are off.

They're not going to stop as long as the policy is to respond by raiding Hamas. At this point, they're using it to get desperately needed aid. "Help, big bad Israel's attacking, we need aid." It's underhanded, but they need help...

If Israel doesn't want to look like the bad guy, here are some tips:
Allow humanitary aid, morons... Hamas will not attack their own aid.

Oh really? Actually they do. All the time.. (Again people suffer from lack of knowledge on Hamas and Palestinian terrorists)

I meant in terms of casualties. The same thing happened in Somalia and Burma. Better than nothing. Gangs always monopolize aid.

Israel doesn't really gives a fuck about looking like the bad guy.
Israel is the good guy, and people like you are preventing them from fighting pure evil, Hamas.

Don't allow civilian buildings to be caught in crossfire. Pull out!

ISRAEL WAS GETTING 80 ROCKETS A DAY, AND HAMAS WERE ARMING THEMSELVES LIKE FUCK. THE INVASION HAPPENED FOR A REASON.
"CIVILIAN BUILDINGS" ARE CAUGHT IN FIRE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CIVILIAN BUILDINGS, HAMAS ARE USING THEM AS SHIELDS.
Fuck, Hamas are kidnapping children (Palestinian, yes, they claim to protect) to escort their squads, to stop IDF from attacking.

It's a gang. You can't confuse the goal with the thugs who follow it. Ends/Means, no?

Just don't raid Palestine in the first place.

Israel was not raiding Palestine. The majority of "Palestine" are living well. In the West Bank, because there is no Hamas there.
Israel raided Gaza, that shot 3200 rockets at Israel the last 3 years.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the Gaza strip was in Palestine. I use the terms interchangeably, much like I use 'Jew' and 'Israeli' interchangeably when talking about the middile east.

Try propaganda bombing, then slowly de-militarizing the border. Or just dig your 80ft deep moat. (Google it)

Thanks to General RWT on his professional analysis of the situation, back to you Tom.

I needed a third thing to add to the list to fill it out a little. Didn't think anyone would notice I BSed that statement. :-) The 80ft moat was a real Isaeli government proposal. It was shot down because the salt water they used to fill it would have hurt agriculture.

Oh yeah, and I thought of this while I was in the shower:

The Palestinians don't want all Jews dead. They would be perfectly fine if the Israelis just went to the moon.

They want them dead. The funny thing here, is that they still call for the destruction of Israel like they did in 1948, when the Arabs declared full scale war against new independent Israel. Only today Israel is much more powerful.

Jews and Arabs never really clicked... it's a quagmire. The Palestinians just want their land back... the destruction of all Israelis kind of ended up in the mission statement. You'd be surprised how many Jihads have been declared. 1838, Macedonia. And Arabs hold grudes. You learn that pretty fast.

Oh, and I just found this. Just came out in today's Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/world/
middleeast/08mideast.html?hp

130 Children...

Blame Hamas.

For an Israeli raid? Just saying, any war with that many civilian casualties needs to be rethought.

It's pointless, Zoorule. We have said the same things time and time again about Hamas' aggression and placement of fighters and rocket sites, and I have yet to read a response that doesn't try to rationalize violence against Israel or addresses the issue of defense and provocation. Apparently, the Israelis can only act to stop rocket fire against their country if doing so results in no more than an equivalent number of casualties. 10 is far less than 700 or so; screw the justifications. Israel must stop attacking immediately; screw the fact that a terrorist organization would rightly declare victory.

I laid out a challenge in the other thread to Sarai and she completely ignored it, presumably so she could respond to dimwits like snipc because its easier and less potentially threatening to her ego. Maybe the posters here have larger gonads, so I'll list it again:

Do you believe Israel's attacks so far are reasonably consistent with a strategy of limiting civilian casualties (yet still destroying the target, of course)?

Do you believe Hamas purposely places Palestinians in the line of fire so it can use their deaths as propaganda?

Given Hamas' status as a terrorist organization, its refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist, and its violent rout of the more moderate Fatah group from Gaza in 2007, is it unreasonable that Israel take even non-violent action, in this case a blockade, to weaken its bordering enemy? What would you have suggested Israel do to this openly hostile power?

Swing and a miss...

They are not a gang. They are a terror organization controlling a whole region. Until Israel revealed who they really are, the support towards them in the Palestinian community was undisputed.

The Hamas takeover was a result of Israel listening to the "enlightened" UN and European pressure, that pressured Israel to leave Gaza completely (The disengagement. Then there were a democratic elections, in which Hamas got the majority of the sits in the Parliament (Both Gaza and west bank), that whole time, Hamas shot rockets into Israel on a daily basis, with no Israeli response, there was no blockade.
The blockade, backed by the UN and EU started in 2007, after Hamas violently took over Gaza, killing hundreds of Palestinians, seperating Gaza from the Palestinian authority.
So how can they say the rockets are a result of blockade? The blockade is a result of their takeover.
The whole time, tons of weapons were smuggled through Egypt.

All of these together with the increasing amount of rockets into Israeli cities, provoked the Israeli attacked. The world should just let Israel destroy Hamas.

Does that look like a gang for you?

At 1/9/09 12:10 AM, zoolrule wrote: They are not a gang. They are a terror organization controlling a whole region. Until Israel revealed who they really are, the support towards them in the Palestinian community was undisputed.

The Hamas takeover was a result of Israel listening to the "enlightened" UN and European pressure, that pressured Israel to leave Gaza completely (The disengagement. Then there were a democratic elections, in which Hamas got the majority of the sits in the Parliament (Both Gaza and west bank), that whole time, Hamas shot rockets into Israel on a daily basis, with no Israeli response, there was no blockade.
The blockade, backed by the UN and EU started in 2007, after Hamas violently took over Gaza, killing hundreds of Palestinians, seperating Gaza from the Palestinian authority.
So how can they say the rockets are a result of blockade? The blockade is a result of their takeover.
The whole time, tons of weapons were smuggled through Egypt.

All of these together with the increasing amount of rockets into Israeli cities, provoked the Israeli attacked. The world should just let Israel destroy Hamas.

Does that look like a gang for you?

Your sig shows how unbiased you are, maybe you should just show a Israeli solider holding a baby at gun point gaurding some money.
oh i can hear it now im an antisemite, just because i hold israel accountable for there destruction doesn't mean i am a antisemite.

At 1/9/09 08:43 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: please watch this and maybe you'll understand why rockets where fired into Israel, or to at least understand the conflict a bit more. Watch at least part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuN p4

I know about most of that, but that is also a video from 2006, 3 years ago. The hamas missiles have been much more recent, and Israel has since stopped demolishing homes and has forcibly removed all of its citizens from the illegal settlements in the west bank and gaza. So here's the real question. If thinks are so bad for the Palestinian people, why is it that people in the west bank aren't firing rockets into Israel, but people in Hamas controlled Gaza are?

And what of reports like this, where there is evidence that Hamas is specifically trying to get Israel to attack civilian targets because Hamas is setting up explosives and such things in the door ways of civilian homes.

At 1/9/09 08:43 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: please watch this and maybe you'll understand why rockets where fired into Israel, or to at least understand the conflict a bit more. Watch at least part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuN p4

Maybe you should watch this video.

At 1/9/09 08:54 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:

So here's the real question. If things are so bad for the Palestinian people, why is it that people in the west bank aren't firing rockets into Israel, but people in Hamas controlled Gaza are?

;;;;;;
I've got a good friend, not just him but his whole family & he doesn't know any first hand stuff about Hamas. But he does know & has experienced Hezbollah militants.
He says that when they show up,they are just as apt to kill their own people (lebanese or anyone else) as kill Israelis.
They are a 'law' unto themselves & see themselves & their goals to be more important than anyones rights. If they decide to take your vehicle, your home, or you & do whatever they want, you agree or you die. That's a fact from friends I have that are from there, have family there & still regularily visit.

And what of reports like this, where there is evidence that Hamas is specifically trying to get Israel to attack civilian targets because Hamas is setting up explosives and such things in the door ways of civilian homes.

This is something they deliberatly do to allow their political wing to use the poor dead civilians to attempt to get sympathy from the citizens in the West to put pressure on their Governments to act against Israel. He & his brothers have also said that when the fighting is going on, if there are not enough 'civilian caualties' they'll make sure the body count goes up.
They care about no one, & consider what they are doing to their own people as a means to an end. They are rabid dogs & need to be seen as rabid dogs & treated like all dogs with rabies are. Kill them !
From what we are seeing in Gaza , Hamas is acting just like Hezbollah does to civilians who happen to be convieniently in harms way.
All part of the plan & thousands of Western people, for the most part very uninformed / niave people are doing exactly what Hamas wants...

So to all you protestors out there .
How does it feel to know you are helping terrorists achieve their goals .

At 1/9/09 09:58 PM, rami-keyblade wrote:

All part of the plan & thousands of Western people, for the most part very uninformed / niave people are doing exactly what Hamas wants...

And what is western media doing?

So to all you protestors out there .
How does it feel to know you are helping terrorists achieve their goals .

And you are publicly supporting a country that justifies attacks on civilians and schools, lets not forget that illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Who are the terrorists ?

;;;;
While I personally don't care how many of them kill each other. The Israelis left Gaza & the West bank 100%. They made their citizens who had occupied areas there to leave...any that wouldn't were forced out.
What does Hamas do with their newly won freedom...start lobbing rockets into Israeli territory.
So yeah , I support whatever it takes to stop that.
Seeing as Hamas kills anyone they choose with total impunity in Gaza, why should i be concerned if someone else happens to kill them in protecting their own.
Not me, I just get tired of all the bleeding hearts out there who actually believe tha B.S. being put out by Hamas & sympathetic (ah Hell lets call it what it is) RATINGS chasing news broadcast services...cause baby there's money in news. The worse it is the more people you get watching. The higher the ratings the more money you make.

I remember reading a quote from an older (I think he's dead ) Israeli it went something like "Until the Palestinians start to love their children more than they hate our children, we will be doomed to constant strife."

I think he hit the nail squarely on the head.
Especially when you see the proud mothers dressing their children in palestinian colors with 'fake' bombs strapped to them. What a great mom's they are .

At 1/9/09 10:45 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: never never generalize people based on what you see on your bias media, you know nothing on the living conditions of these people.

;;;;
Actually I have friends now living here in Canada, I'll take what they got to say as 100% more important & closer to the truth than anything you've got to say.

I'll answer your questions adrsheperd; even though I know that nothing I say will have any influence on your views whatsoever. I will answer your questions because they are legitimate questions that everyone should be asking about the Israel-Palestine conflict, and because I hope that this post will help other people better understand exactly what is happening in Gaza right now.

At 1/8/09 10:54 PM, adrshepard wrote: Do you believe Israel's attacks so far are reasonably consistent with a strategy of limiting civilian casualties (yet still destroying the target, of course)?

Now this is complicated. First off you have to understand that virtually every bit of information we've received regarding Israel's conduct in this situation has been obtained from the IDF (Israeli Defense Force, for those who do not know). Most of the other bits of informations we've received are from Palistinian Civilians. The reason that information from Gaza is so scarce, is because of an Israeli enforced ban on foreign journalism in the Gaza strip.

Now if everything the IDF tells us is true, then the answer to your question is clearly: yes, the Israelis are doing everything within their power to limit civilian causalities, and are only acting in self defense. Unfortunately, it doesn't look to be that simple. Recently there has been a string of reports that portray Israel in a less-than-perfect light. For one, there's the UN school mentioned in the original post of the this topic, where Israel shelled 40 Palestinian civilians to death. Israel claims that there were Hamas militants inside the building, but the UN official on-site claims that there were no militants in the building. One especially interesting event was reported just today: IDF soldiers evacuated about 100 Palestinian civilians into a house they subsequently bombed, killing 30 of the citizens they evacuated into it.

So my answer to your question, in complete honesty, is: I don't know, and I can't know until Israel agrees to let journalists into the Gaza strip, and agrees to allow impartial investigations to be held regarding Israels alleged war crimes.

Do you believe Hamas purposely places Palestinians in the line of fire so it can use their deaths as propaganda?

Yes. I've considered typing out an explanation of equal length to my last one, but I feel this has been covered extensively enough by others in this thread. We've seen tapes of Hamas launching rockets from populated residential areas. The evidence on this matter is quite clear as far as I am concerned.

Given Hamas' status as a terrorist organization, its refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist, and its violent rout of the more moderate Fatah group from Gaza in 2007, is it unreasonable that Israel take even non-violent action, in this case a blockade, to weaken its bordering enemy?

Well I think it really depends on what kind of non-violent action you're proposing. Sometimes "non-violent" action can be equally, or even more devastating than violent action. In the case of the blockade, from what I've heard, it's absolutely devastated the people of Gaza. I understand Israel's concern in protecting itself, but when it has squeezed Palestine to the point where Palestinian citizens are dying due to the lack fuel, food, and medical supplies, then Israel borders what I would consider "aggressive" action.

What would you have suggested Israel do to this openly hostile power?

Considering the IDF is telling the whole truth, then I would suggest Israel do exactly what it is allegedly doing right now. Namely, bombing the rocket sites that pose a threat to Israeli citizens. Though I would differ in that I would want Israel to allow Journalists and UN aid workers into the Gaza strip.

Like I said before though, I can't be sure that Israel is telling the whole truth. I would like very much to believe that Israel is being as benevolent as they possibly can be in this situation, but when there is evidence to suggest things like Israel using Palestinians as human shields, the situation becomes much less simple. At that point you have to wonder exactly what Israels intentions really were when they banned foreign journalism in Gaza.

Personally, I would like nothing better than for my doubts to be proven wrong. I hope that Israel allows foreign journalists into the Gaza Strip, and allows impartial UN investigations to be conducted, and it's concluded that the allegations against Israel are completely and totally false. However, until that happens, I can't be sure that the IDF is being anymore just or reasonable in this situation than Hamas is.

More updates:

UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said that in an IDF briefing for foreign diplomats, the IDF admitted that bombing the school was unintentional.

This article points out that the IDF missiles/mortars landed 30 meters (98 feet) from where the suspected militant rockets were launched.
"The preliminary debriefing in the Paratroops Brigade found that the IDF mortars were 30 meters off the point from which the rocket fire originated."

The IDF has exact GPS coordinates for all the UN buildings, so they don't get bombed. They have bombed 3 UNRWA schools in Gaza, so far.

At 1/9/09 11:02 PM, rami-keyblade wrote:

Actually I have friends now living here in Canada, I'll take what they got to say as 100% more important & closer to the truth than anything you've got to say.

Living in Canada so what, i live in Canada are u saying he used to live somewhere else??

;;;;
YEs ,Lebonese from southern Lebonon.
My friends mother still gets a scared look in her eyes when we talk about the militants, over there. They are outside the law, They consider anyone ,including their own people as a means to an end.
Putting them in harms way, killing them ,themselves is all just part of their tactics.

They don't care if they set up & launch attacks from your home & run off to leave you get killed in a realitory strike...they then come back & hold up your bodies while crying for people in the West to protest & stop the savage Israelis...when they're the savages.

So that easily led sheep like you get all freaked out...for the wrong reasons & against the wrong side.

At 1/9/09 11:52 PM, Musician wrote: I'll answer your questions adrsheperd; even though I know that nothing I say will have any influence on your views whatsoever.

It is appreciated nevertheless.

At 1/9/09 11:52 PM, Musician wrote: ...Recently there has been a string of reports that portray Israel in a less-than-perfect light. For one, there's the UN school mentioned in the original post of the this topic, where Israel shelled 40 Palestinian civilians to death. Israel claims that there were Hamas militants inside the building, but the UN official on-site claims that there were no militants in the building. One especially interesting event was reported just today: IDF soldiers evacuated about 100 Palestinian civilians into a house they subsequently bombed, killing 30 of the citizens they evacuated into it.

I could have sworn that earlier reports said that the school was hit by a tank shell, yet the links bcdemon posts say that it was IDF mortars. I know that not all mortars are particularly accurate, but the fact that the bombs landed 30 meters from the apparent firing position of the militants doesn't tell me very much. I'm still waiting for the Israeli statement on the second incident. I'm sure there is some explanation.

At 1/9/09 11:52 PM, Musician wrote: Well I think it really depends on what kind of non-violent action you're proposing. Sometimes "non-violent" action can be equally, or even more devastating than violent action. In the case of the blockade, from what I've heard, it's absolutely devastated the people of Gaza...Israel borders what I would consider "aggressive" action.

The problem with this view is that you're seeing the blockade as an isolated event. Without the background of Hamas' aggression, the blockade seems cruel. But I also doubt the idea that the Palestinians were absolutely incapable of ending it. I would bet a more conciliatory attitude on the part of Hamas would have lifted the blockade. Even though this would be a loss of face for Hamas, it is not an unreasonable request since the Israelis are not asking for anything more than to live in peace. Everything else, the checkpoints, bases, etc, is based on distrust, which can weaken over time with good behavior.

What would you have suggested Israel do to this openly hostile power?

Considering the IDF is telling the whole truth, then I would suggest Israel do exactly what it is allegedly doing right now. Namely, bombing the rocket sites that pose a threat to Israeli citizens. Though I would differ in that I would want Israel to allow Journalists and UN aid workers into the Gaza strip.

I wouldn't. The campaign would inevitably lead to civilian casualties, no matter how careful the Israelis were. The greatest incentive to call a cease-fire is not coming from Hamas' resistance or a lack of public support in Israel, but from other countries. Letting in foreign journalists would worsen the problem for Israel because the world doesn't care about provocation, only violence. We can say that there needs to be more information to form a complete opinion on some of these questions, but that hasn't stopped protests around the world from claiming that Israel is the oppressor, or governments from demanding that Israel halt its attack immediately. Israel would have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

:..but when there is evidence to suggest things like Israel using Palestinians as human shields, the situation becomes much less simple. At that point you have to wonder exactly what Israels intentions really were when they banned foreign journalism in Gaza.
That article isn't detailed enough to convince me that the Israelis are using human shields. Forcing families to remain inside makeshift observation posts is probably meant to prevent them from tipping off Hamas fighters. Unless the Israelis make a show of the fact that there are Palestinians inside, that isn't using them as shields.
Mr. Smart is a douchebag, too. To say that soldiers should not attempt to return fire on civilian buildings that house militants is beyond naive. He must be some sort of ultra-pacifist that even condemns self-defense.

However, until that happens, I can't be sure that the IDF is being anymore just or reasonable in this situation than Hamas is.

For this conflict only, yes. But if you take account of past events, it should be clear that the IDF has more credibility than Hamas in trying to avoid civilian casualties. The fact that Hamas' rocket barrages are completely random and inaccurate says everything.

Musician's post is a well thought out and balanced account of someone sitting on a fence and thinking about the truths. If Israel actually allowed independent people into Gaza then perhaps people around the world wouldn't rely so much on unverifiable facts. However since the BBC does have a ground presence there, I do believe quite significant numbers of their stories.

I also note some comment here that it is fine to force familes to stay in houses taken over by Israeli sniper teams. This is clearly illegal and borderline war-crime, you can look it up if you want. How many wrongs does it take before the world takes notice that yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization that through its misadventures harms its own people but also how little regard Israel has for civilians.

Oh well :/ Nice to read your post M... interesting.

According to todays paper, Hamas will not agree to a cease fire if Nato countries like Turkey & Eygpt are to have observers there.
You see if there are outside observers, Hamas can't pull any of their shit without coming off as the bad guy's Which they Are !
So the innocents you all cry about here, because of big bad Israel. Are going to continue to be in harms way...Because Hamas won't try to save them.
You can't be a murderous dictatorial Militant group , who portrays themselves as the poor defender, where anyone can see what your truely up to.
So there can be no close obsevation of your slight of hand (launching attacks from places like schools & UN buildings) where anyone of the 'observers' can see, & report the truth.

Keep protesting for the Palestinians & Hamas guy's your helping out a terrorist organization...you all have so much to be proud of.
Oh yes, the Protest against Israel here yesterday drew 20 people...god damn but its nice to see most Nova Scotians are not swallowing the B.S. hook, line & sinker like so many idiots in Britian are.

At 1/10/09 01:33 PM, morefngdbs wrote: So there can be no close obsevation of your slight of hand (launching attacks from places like schools & UN buildings) where anyone of the 'observers' can see, & report the truth.

John Ging, the UNRWA guy in charge in Gaza is from Ireland, that's international.
Do you believe him when he says there's no hamas members at the school when it was bombed?

Keep protesting for the Palestinians & Hamas guy's your helping out a terrorist organization...you all have so much to be proud of.

Surely you can't believe that? To think that anyone on this BBS is protesting on the part of Hamas?
I do protest for the Palestinians, but not for Hamas.
We are here to debate stuff, I don't think anyone will debate on behalf of Hamas, so why try? On the other hand, some of us who think the IDF is in the wrong as well are willing to express our views, and we know they will be challenged.