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At 12/18/03 09:14 PM, OpIvy420 wrote: Do you think ANYONE would care what they had to say if they didn't use violence?

Let me tell you a story about a man you may or may not have heard of. His name was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Assuming you have an IQ that exceeds that of a stalk of celery, I’ll not go into the details of who he was and his historical significance and go straight to my point. Now, MLK could have used violence to get his message across. He could have threatened white people all around the country with firebombs, acts of vandalism and other violent means of getting his message of civil rights across. But he knew that in order to achieve what he wanted (a world or peace and harmony) that he couldn’t intimidate people with violence because then he would be a mockery of what he stood for. So, to prove to the world that he wasn’t an enemy but a man with a vision to be respected, he influenced his people to use non-violent protest. He believed in that and he died for that. It is because of his integrity to face adversity without violence that he’s remembered as the hero he truly is and that his people have the civil rights they deserve. Still don’t get it? Well, maybe one day I’ll tell you the story of a man named Gandhi. But until then, think about what I just told you.

MInd you all, this isn't the first time PETA has crossed the line. Just one yea ago they came out eith the "Holocaust on your Plate" campaign

Gandhi and Martin Luther King?

Wow, they're both dead.

and even more wow, they're two individuals in all of the world's history.

At 12/18/03 11:49 PM, punk_shithead wrote: Gandhi and Martin Luther King?

Wow, they're both dead.

and even more wow, they're two individuals in all of the world's history.

You and your pathetic excuses. MLK & Gandhi inspired their people to bring change and it worked. Hitler inspired his people to use violence and ignorance to get what they want and it ruined them.

PETA is a great organization, and they do a shit load for animal rights. I support them a great deal and encourage anyone who cares about animals to support them.

ELF is a extremest group of people trying to change the world through bombings. Now their point will be shown, but bombs put off pollution too so there not doing much good for the environment. NOw im all for trying to make a difference, but i promote peaceful solutions other than destructive ones.

At 12/18/03 08:51 PM, OpIvy420 wrote: What the ALF and the ELF do is extreme, but so is what humans are doing to animals and the environment. They firebombed a few car dealerships and a ski resort? Logging companies have removed entire forests from the face of the Earth. The meat industry feeds chickens so many hormones that they are unable to stand up. These people are committed to doing whatever it takes to save the planet, and if that means keeping a few yuppies from buying new H2s, then so be it.

So you are saying, that if I decide to go hunting, and someone from ELF torches my house and kills my wife and kids that I'm supposed to deal with it? Fuck you! What they are doing is completely out of line. If they REALLY want to get their point across, they would do it through the system. Besides, why don't they just buy a lot of forested land? Then nobody can cut it down? My grandparents live right near an acre of forested land for sale, but no one will buy it because it was spray painted in green that said EARTH FIRST. Fuck them! They baught the spray paint, which is a pollutant, plus they baught it from a store, who then orders more, so the people that make the spray paint RELEASE MORE POLLUTANTS INTO THE AIR BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE SPRAY PAINT!

At 12/18/03 11:55 PM, Dagodevas wrote: You and your pathetic excuses. MLK & Gandhi inspired their people to bring change and it worked. Hitler inspired his people to use violence and ignorance to get what they want and it ruined them.

Yeah great, use anecdotal evidence. Was the civil war won with non-violent struggle? Was WWI and WWII won with non-violent struggle? >:\

Ordinary people do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary.

At 12/19/03 12:42 AM, UberNES wrote: So you are saying, that if I decide to go hunting, and someone from ELF torches my house and kills my wife and kids that I'm supposed to deal with it? Fuck you!

The ELF doesn't give a shit about hunters or your wife and kids, they target corporations and do everything they can not to harm anyne in the process. No one has been harmed so far.

If they REALLY want to get their point across, they would do it through the system.

And how would they do that?

Besides, why don't they just buy a lot of forested land?

Because it costs a lot of money

Then nobody can cut it down?

no, I'm pretty sure real estate dealers have more money than "hippies". Anyways, they'd have to conform to the zoning regulations and actually build something wether it's been deemed a residential or industrial zone or whatnot.

My grandparents live right near an acre of forested land for sale, but no one will buy it because it was spray painted in green that said EARTH FIRST.

I thought that was the whole point of it, to prevent the destruction of land through corporate ownership.

Fuck them!

You do realize that Earth First and the Earth Liberation Front are two separate entities?

They baught the spray paint, which is a pollutant, plus they baught it from a store, who then orders more, so the people that make the spray paint RELEASE MORE POLLUTANTS INTO THE AIR BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE SPRAY PAINT!

OH NO! I MUST RUN TO MY BOMB SHELTER BEFORE IT IS IT TOO LATE.

Seriously, what are you talking about? If a can of spraypaint can prevent a factory from being built then your little squirt of pollutant just stopped hundreds of thousands of tons of toxic waste from being created.

At 12/19/03 01:05 AM, punk_shithead wrote: Yeah great, use anecdotal evidence. Was the civil war won with non-violent struggle? Was WWI and WWII won with non-violent struggle? >:\

It’s clearly evident that we’re not debating on the original issue anymore; but nonetheless…

Yes, those wars were ended with violence. That’s the way wars are. However the question is, did those wars happen to happen? Could the issue of slavery been resolved without war? Yes. How did World War I begin? With the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. What started World War 2? Germany invading Poland. Wars happen when people dig themselves into holes they can’t get out of. And how do they get into those holes? Through violence, a lack of understanding, and miscommunication. If people can try and find more humane ways of solving their problems then maybe the millions of people who died in those wars could have lived their lives to the fullest.

At 12/19/03 12:42 AM, UberNES wrote: So you are saying, that if I decide to go hunting, and someone from ELF torches my house and kills my wife and kids that I'm supposed to deal with it?

How many people have the ELF killed to date? 0.

How many defenseless deers have been killed for no purpose other than to bring sadistic pleasure into the sad, shallow lives of Midwestern cubicle dwellers? Untold millions.

You're safe from the ELF, but if deers ever evolve opposable thumbs, and see you in your hunting hat and orange vest, then you're fucked.

At 12/19/03 01:26 AM, OpIvy420 wrote: You're safe from the ELF, but if deers ever evolve opposable thumbs, and see you in your hunting hat and orange vest, then you're fucked.

Would my business be safe from ELF? Would my car dealership? Would my house? No. They would burn it down to the ground and vandalize it. And, to make sure they don’t leave out the hypocrisy, they would label me the bad guy. Just because no one’s been physically hurt doesn’t mean that ELF isn’t dangerous. They’re destroying people’s homes and their jobs. They’re ruining people financially. You’re needlessly sugarcoating the far-too-bitter truth. One day one of those firebombs are going to go off at the wrong time, someone’s going to wind up dead, and the FBI are going to take them down.

Maybe I should blow up your house, car and place you work at in the name of preserving nature. Just promise me you wont take action since it’s okay in your book.

I just wanted to add in something I heard over the radio.

Check out this new acronym for PETA:
People for Eating Tasty Animals

Here's the link for that Maddox article on eating animals:
http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html

Gotta love the double standard invoked by these wackos. Destroying property is ok just as long as no one is injured or physically hurt. Destruction is only acceptable whenever it helps a just cause. And yet the same people denounce wars and violence.

How can this type of people look at themselves in the mirror and not be discusted?

But at least you have to love the fact that by having these types of dissenting voices, one can realize all that we Americans have to be thankful for. A plethora of meat to choose from, both inhumane and humane. And acres of virgin lands. Just ask us San Diegans. The wild fires we had last month only prove that.

Progress is a double-edged sword. We are both blessed and damned by it. And it appears that we need to put up with these wackos in order to enjoy progress.

At 12/18/03 11:55 PM, Dagodevas wrote: MLK & Gandhi inspired their people to bring change and it worked.

No it didn't, both were killed without their actions or followers directly changing the social systems in the USA or India/Pakistan. Gandhi did not accomplish anything in South Africa either.

At 12/19/03 01:26 AM, OpIvy420 wrote:

At 12/19/03 12:42 AM, UberNES wrote: So you are saying, that if I decide to go hunting, and someone from ELF torches my house and kills my wife and kids that I'm supposed to deal with it?

How many people have the ELF killed to date? 0.

How many defenseless deers have been killed for no purpose other than to bring sadistic pleasure into the sad, shallow lives of Midwestern cubicle dwellers? Untold millions.

You're safe from the ELF, but if deers ever evolve opposable thumbs, and see you in your hunting hat and orange vest, then you're fucked.

Oh shut your violent mouth! People EAT deer. That is WHY MOST people hunt them. Besides, if hunters didn't kill the deer. The deer population would become huge, effectively wiping out their food source, which would then kill them all. It is the hunters that keep the deer population from killing themselves, so ELF should be thankful! Also, yes, I know that EF and ELF are two separate entities, but I was trying to point out that when groups such as these start vandalizing things and ELF torching things, it screws up the whole works, and as Degadoves said, one day one of those bombs is gonna kill some janitor or something.

At 12/18/03 11:49 PM, punk_shithead wrote: Gandhi and Martin Luther King?

Wow, they're both dead.

and even more wow, they're two individuals in all of the world's history.

They were two individuals just last century...

and there could've been more if only more people were strong enough to fight with only their words as their weapons.

At 12/19/03 01:26 AM, OpIvy420 wrote:

At 12/19/03 12:42 AM, UberNES wrote: So you are saying, that if I decide to go hunting, and someone from ELF torches my house and kills my wife and kids that I'm supposed to deal with it?

How many people have the ELF killed to date? 0.

How many defenseless deers have been killed for no purpose other than to bring sadistic pleasure into the sad, shallow lives of Midwestern cubicle dwellers? Untold millions.

You're safe from the ELF, but if deers ever evolve opposable thumbs, and see you in your hunting hat and orange vest, then you're fucked.

I have a pretty simple question for you.
Do you believe in the theory of Evolution and natural selection?

Oh, also, the plural form of deer is deer. Not "Deers"

It's funny how fast everyone is to scream "Darwinism!" in the face of religion WHILE ATE THE SAME TIME screaming "MURDER!" at meat eaters, despite clear evolutionary developments (such as canine teeth) that say we evolved to eat meat, like every other intelligent animal.

Vegetarianism is the dumbest religious concept evar.

At 12/19/03 10:54 PM, JudgeFUNK wrote: It's funny how fast everyone is to scream "Darwinism!" in the face of religion WHILE ATE THE SAME TIME screaming "MURDER!" at meat eaters, despite clear evolutionary developments (such as canine teeth) that say we evolved to eat meat, like every other intelligent animal.

Vegetarianism is the dumbest religious concept evar.

I dont meen to make you look bad in front of all of NG but vegetarianism is not by any means, religious.. I may by inspired by some strange cults(if inspired by religion at all i mean), but yeah.... oh and yeah, humans eat both meat and veggies if you havn't noticed, and have for thousands of years, look at the Irish, they love potatoes and have for years. (flame on Irish not intended)

At 12/19/03 11:13 PM, ExileOfMyMind wrote:
I dont meen to make you look bad in front of all of NG but vegetarianism is not by any means, religious.. I may by inspired by some strange cults(if inspired by religion at all i mean), but yeah.... oh and yeah, humans eat both meat and veggies if you havn't noticed, and have for thousands of years, look at the Irish, they love potatoes and have for years. (flame on Irish not intended)

Funny, I could have sworn vegetarianism fit all the criterion of a religious concept. People take on faith that not eating meat is less "wrong" than eating it. Certain religions (mainly sects of Buddhism and Hinduism) believe that eating meat is a sin because of their belief in reincarnation. Other people don't eat meat because they consider it murder of animals. There are a few people who believe that not eating meat is more "natural" because man evolved from vegetarian apes (despite the fact that the apes man evolved from were most likely omnivorous, like our closest relative the chimpanzee, which not only eats insects, but on rare occasions indulges in infant cannibalism)

All of these reasons for not eating meat MUST be religious in nature, because science has reiterated time and time again that eating meat in moderate amounts is the most efficient way of ensuring an adequate supply of protein in the diet. If it requires faith ESPECIALLY FAITH IN CONTRADICTION TO SCIENCE, it must be religious.

I stand corrected and retract my previous statement.

At 12/19/03 01:26 AM, OpIvy420 wrote:

How many defenseless deers have been killed for no purpose other than to bring sadistic pleasure into the sad, shallow lives of Midwestern cubicle dwellers? Untold millions.

Let me explain to you something, deer, do not have insight. Insight is the defining intellegence we use to classify something as sentient. If it is sentient and is aware of it's own life and it can be said that it is indeed living, but other than that, the cows, deer, dogs, and cats aren't really living.

If you claim that they are "alive", then what is to say plants are not alive, or bacterium.

At 12/20/03 12:38 PM, Jimsween wrote: If you claim that they are "alive", then what is to say plants are not alive, or bacterium.

Probably, the lack of a central nervous system or the absence of any of the 5 senses. Yeah, the list goes on.

hey punk, do you know if the ELF people live in houses on deforested land? or to they just have a big pit in the ground with a tarp over it?

At 12/21/03 06:33 PM, Izuamoto wrote: hey punk, do you know if the ELF people live in houses on deforested land? or to they just have a big pit in the ground with a tarp over it?

I sense a trap. yes they live in houses but the houses they target/burn down in are houses worth millions that are built in ecologically diverse and important areas. That's why they don't protect every bit of forest area and burn down every house built.

At 12/21/03 02:19 PM, punk_shithead wrote:

At 12/20/03 12:38 PM, Jimsween wrote: If you claim that they are "alive", then what is to say plants are not alive, or bacterium.

Probably, the lack of a central nervous system or the absence of any of the 5 senses. Yeah, the list goes on.

Some plants have touch, most have some sort of sight (ability to sense light), many have hearing (which is just basically a branch of touch, the ability to sense vibrations), and some have sense we don't even have. So if it's just the number of senses that matters, wouldn't it be completely justifiable for a species with 8 senses to enslave us?

I'm still sticking with insight on this one, it makes the most sense to me.

Ok Jim, kick a dog in the face and see what it does.

Then kick some sort of plant in the face and see what it does.

Im not sure if this has been covered yet in this thread, but plants have feelings too. Its been a scienctifically documented fact that when a carrot gets cut it gives off a "panic" protien. So when you cut it, it feels pain. You vegitarians are the number 1 carrot kilelrs in the world. How does that make you feel, when you chop that defensless carrot with your own bare hands that it is scared.

At 12/22/03 01:04 AM, RugbyMacDaddy wrote: How does that make you feel, when you chop that defensless carrot with your own bare hands that it is scared.

Quite skeptical because I did a google search on the carrot topic and nothing came up.

At 12/18/03 08:57 PM, Dagodevas wrote: I don’t see how any of this justifies violence and terrorism. Doesn’t anyone believe in non-violent protest anymore or getting involved in politics? The only way ELF confronts their problems is with violence. Their “quest to protect the planet” is just an excuse for them to threaten other people and destroy their businesses that they’ve worked so hard to construct.

Well, after 9-11 the US reacted with violence and that seemed OK, so why can't these people react with violence against inhuman cruelty towards animals? You can non-violent protest all you want, but the government does not listen to it, and the media doesn't find it interesting enough to cover it. Getting into politics? Pfah, the people don't see the environment problem as a direct threat, so they don't vote for it. And those poor people with their "businesses that they’ve worked so hard to construct" are assholes and deserve nothing less for what they are doing to innocent animals. I hope they burn in hell.

At 12/22/03 03:38 PM, 0_OkthxbyeO_0 wrote:

At 12/22/03 01:04 AM, RugbyMacDaddy wrote: How does that make you feel, when you chop that defensless carrot with your own bare hands that it is scared.

Quite skeptical because I did a google search on the carrot topic and nothing came up.

I draw you attention to the I think the 5 body paragraph. It deals with plants being injuried.