More Hamas Rockets.

[Tancrisism]

Nothing too new, but interesting nonetheless.

All they are doing is pelting Israel with rockets. Do they actually expect to gain something from this? I really am beginning to think that Hamas is trying to get Israel to lead a full-scale invasion of Gaza in hopes of getting other Arab countries to attack.

[rudd68]

At 12/22/08 04:02 AM, Tancrisism wrote: Nothing too new, but interesting nonetheless.

All they are doing is pelting Israel with rockets. Do they actually expect to gain something from this? I really am beginning to think that Hamas is trying to get Israel to lead a full-scale invasion of Gaza in hopes of getting other Arab countries to attack.

Or it is perhaps to do with the fact that Israel has its military within Palestenian lands, has road blocks again within Palestenian lands and does not allow ambulances through these road bloacks wehn it is set to let Jewish people through (just watch The Painist scene when he waits to cross the trams - and thats what the israelis are doing to the palestenians)...... wouldn't you try to do something to correct the injustice????

By the way I am no condoning or supporting suicide bombers or targetting civillian targets but you would just take would you if anyone did that to you??? No - people have too much dignity and self-respect.

[rudd68]

I just realised that I wrote the last section out a bit wrong - this is what its suppose to say:

By the way I am no condoning or supporting suicide bombers or targetting civillian targets but you would not just take it, if anyone did that to you??? No - people have too much dignity and self-respect

[Tancrisism]

Of course there is another side to it, but what do they expect to achieve by using the tactics they are using? Are they just behaving out of blind rage, flailing their limbs about? I tend to think that Hamas behaves with more calculation than that since they have managed to become such a big group in the region. And if so, what could their motives be other than for Israel to actually lead a full-scale and costly invasion, possibly sparking other Arab countries to help?

[rudd68]

At 12/22/08 07:03 AM, Tancrisism wrote: Of course there is another side to it, but what do they expect to achieve by using the tactics they are using? Are they just behaving out of blind rage, flailing their limbs about? I tend to think that Hamas behaves with more calculation than that since they have managed to become such a big group in the region. And if so, what could their motives be other than for Israel to actually lead a full-scale and costly invasion, possibly sparking other Arab countries to help?

The thing is they are a big group in the region not so much for their stance against Israel but their doemstic policies in the Gaza Strip and West Bank - they are the least corrupt political party there (the Presidents party Fatah is exrremely corrupt). The also help with reconsturction of of destroyed buldings and actually pay the wages of teachers and police officers (Fatah actually at one stage had no money and could not pay them their wages).

But I see where your point comes from - the thing is they are too proud to take it from the Israelis, and so would anyone (i.e. the French resistance with Nazi occupation, the Jewish Ghetto Uprising/revolts of 1943-44). Even if to the outsider there was no point (in the Warsaw ghetto uprising the nazis obiterated the jews that fought) it is all to do with that they would rather make a stand then to be remembered as people who took it and allowed someone to control and destroy them.

[Tancrisism]

At 12/22/08 07:37 AM, rudd68 wrote: The thing is they are a big group in the region not so much for their stance against Israel but their doemstic policies in the Gaza Strip and West Bank - they are the least corrupt political party there (the Presidents party Fatah is exrremely corrupt). The also help with reconsturction of of destroyed buldings and actually pay the wages of teachers and police officers (Fatah actually at one stage had no money and could not pay them their wages).

Which gives more credence to my point - they aren't a group merely out for blood, they have a purpose.

But I see where your point comes from - the thing is they are too proud to take it from the Israelis, and so would anyone (i.e. the French resistance with Nazi occupation, the Jewish Ghetto Uprising/revolts of 1943-44). Even if to the outsider there was no point (in the Warsaw ghetto uprising the nazis obiterated the jews that fought) it is all to do with that they would rather make a stand then to be remembered as people who took it and allowed someone to control and destroy them.

I would like to point out that the situation isn't quite as clear as it was in Warsaw. Now in Israel most of the people getting killed by the rockets are Israeli civilians who are trying to do nothing but survive in the place they were born and raised. Of course the Palestinians are desperate and are being mistreated, but in the case of Warsaw it wasn't just the Jews attacking the Nazis, it was the entire city. They weren't fighting the German people, they were fighting the Nazi Occupation. Can you see the difference?

And it ended not only with the Jews getting killed, but since it was the entire city (meaning it was feasibly more Poles fighting than Jews), the Nazis then forcefully moved everyone out of the city and systematically demolished it.

[Dragon-Smaug]

Rudd, you realize that it is actually Hamas (and Fatah, though they will deny it) who want to destory Israel, and that Israel is just trying to get them to leave her alone? Don't let Israel's military superiority get in the way of this fact. Isreal also has the moral superiority, and this is a military handicap.

Also Rudd there are no roadblocks in Gaza, there are not even any Jews in Gaza, since when Israel unoccupied Gaza in 2005, they uprooted all the Jewish Israeli families living there as well. There are no restrictions in Gaza, the people live poorly because Hamas prioritizes attacking Israel over making life better for its own people.

In response to Tancrisism wondering what Hamas' game is, it's the standard terrorist game. To quote a good recent blog post by The Warped Mirror:
it's a win-win situation for Hamas: if the crossings are closed, the group profits from the smuggling and, in addition, scores PR points with every lament over the "siege" of Gaza and the terrible "collective punishment" meted out by the inhumanely cruel "Zionist entity"; conversely, if the crossings are opened despite rocket attacks and, with regard to the Rafah crossing, under the conditions Hamas sets, the group scores a big political victory by proving that intransigence, violence and the willingness to ignore the welfare of Gaza's population in pursuit of its aims will be rewarded.

(Also I'm ignoring Rudd's insulting comparisons to the Holocaust.)

[Dragon-Smaug]

Also I'd like to point out that Hamas has been shooting rockets at Israel nearly every day over the past months, without an Israeli response, so as Tancrism says, this is not new.

[Tancrisism]

Dragon, I think you seem to be completely ignoring the position that the Palestinians are currently in. Terrorism doesn't just occur randomly (with some exceptions), and especially not in such a widespread way like Hamas. I am not saying they are justified, but it amazes me how one-sidedly people look at the issue, an issue which is much more complex than people realize.

[Roth-Productions]

At 12/24/08 04:35 PM, Tancrisism wrote: Dragon, I think you seem to be completely ignoring the position that the Palestinians are currently in. Terrorism doesn't just occur randomly (with some exceptions), and especially not in such a widespread way like Hamas. I am not saying they are justified, but it amazes me how one-sidedly people look at the issue, an issue which is much more complex than people realize.

I don't see how. You wouldn't realize it from my post, but I have sympathy for the Palestinians, especially since they are governed by terrorists who don't care about them. I'm just pointing some stuff out. Hamas and Fatah have been indoctrinating the Palestinians with anti-Semitism and fanaticism for decades. They (the terrorists and PA, not the average Palestinian) do not want a state more than they want to deny the Jews one. They have had countless opportunities to build state institutions (Oslo accords, Gaza withdrawal), or even final status peace agreements (Oslo, Camp David in 2000), but have chosen terrorism instead. Because terrorism works. Why moderate when Israel will release prisoners and the international community will give you millions of dollars?

You are correct when you say terrorism does not emerge randomly out of a vacuum.

I've been saying Hamas wants to kill Jews and Israelis, and that's true. Also of great importance to Hamas, however, is power. This they also symbiotically gain through terrorism and opposition to Israel. During the intifada Fatah and Hamas competed to kill the most Israelis.

Terrorist leaders attack Israel to gain power, and terrorist members attack Israel because of the ideology and false history with which they have been brainwashed. (I admit, some probably do it for a paycheck - those who would fight but not be suicide bombers. This is why I hope Netanyahu gets elected PM of Israel in February. His policy of developing the Palestinian economy and building peace from the bottom up is what is needed.)

[Dragon-Smaug]

wtf I was logged in as Roth-Productions

[Tancrisism]

I see what you are saying - Hamas wants nothing more than to attack Israel because this gives the leaders personal power. It is an interesting idea, and I will have to read more about the group to see if I agree.

[zoolrule]

beginning to think that Hamas

Beginning? You seriously don't understand what Hamas are.

They are a terror organization, they don't have the slightest care that Palestinians would die, they don't give a shit. It's actually their goal. Propaganda. Money. Power.

I posted this article a while ago -

-- Masab Yousef, the son of the the Hamas leader, he was brave enough (And was not brainwashed, because of his father's position he got a decent education and wasn't brainwashed to hate and kill since age 0, like the rest of the Palestinians.) to leave Hamas and talk against the Palestinians.
That's what he said about Hamas, the group that was democratically chosen by the poor Palestinian people (Their platform was basically - Kill Jews).

"I respect Israel and admire it as a country. I'm opposed to a policy of killing civilians, or using them as a means to an end, and I understand that Israel has a right to defend itself. The Palestinians, if they don't have an enemy to fight, will fight each other. In about 20 years from now you'll remember what I'm telling you, the conflict will be among various groups within Hamas. They're already beginning to quarrel over control of the money."

*He does not conceal his abhorrence of everything representing the human surroundings in which he grew up: the nation, the religion, the organization.

"You Jews should be aware: You will never, but never have peace with Hamas. Islam, as the ideology that guides them, will not allow them to achieve a peace agreement with the Jews. They believe that tradition says that the Prophet Mohammed fought against the Jews and that therefore they must continue to fight them to the death. They have to take revenge against anyone who did not agree to accept the Prophet Mohammed, like the Jews who are seen in the Koran as monkeys and the sons of pigs. They speak in terms of historical rights that were taken from them. In the view of Hamas, peace with Israel contradicts sharia and the Koran, and the Jews have no right to remain in Palestine."

*Is that the justification for the suicide attacks?

"More than that. An entire society sanctifies death and the suicide terrorists. In Palestinian culture a suicide terrorist becomes a hero, a martyr. Sheikhs tell their students about the 'heroism of the shaheeds' and that causes the young people to imitate the suicide bombers, in order to achieve glory. I'll give you an example. I once met a young man named Dia Tawil. He was a quiet boy, an outstanding student. Not a Muslim extremist and not radical in his ideas against the Israelis. I never heard extreme statements from him. He didn't even come from a religious family: His father was a communist and his sister was a journalist who didn't wear a head covering. But Bilal Barghouti [one of the heads of the military arm of Hamas in the West Bank] didn't need more than a few months to convince him to become a suicide terrorist." (Tawil, 19, blew himself up in March 2001 next to a bus at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem, Israel; 31 people were wounded.)

"Do you know that Hamas was the first to use the weapon of suicide bombers against civilian targets?" he continues. "They are blind and ignorant. It's true, there are good and bad people everywhere, but Hamas supporters don't understand that they are led by a wicked and cruel group that brainwashes the children and gets them to believe that if they carry out a suicide attack they'll get to Paradise. But no suicide bomber will find himself there and no virgins are waiting for them after they have carried out an attack. They have to understand that Islam was created by people and not by God."

*Were there good people in Hamas?

"In my eyes there were all cruel, ugly inside. But I think that Mahmoud Zahar [one of the leaders of Hamas in Gaza] is one of the worst."

I wonder, why can't you understand, it is one sided. The conflict is simply one sided.

[Tancrisism]

At 12/25/08 09:21 AM, zoolrule wrote:

beginning to think that Hamas

Beginning? You seriously don't understand what Hamas are.

They are a terror organization, they don't have the slightest care that Palestinians would die, they don't give a shit. It's actually their goal. Propaganda. Money. Power.

I posted this article a while ago -

-- Masab Yousef, the son of the the Hamas leader...

This is a very interesting article indeed.

I wonder, why can't you understand, it is one sided. The conflict is simply one sided.

Says the one who said, and I quote:

"Because those Arabs are the scum of earth willing to sacrifice their own people in order to gain propaganda, whiling to endanger their own people in order to fight Israel.

Have not ethics and moral laws and have no problem in lying and twisting the truth in order to gain propaganda.

There is nothing wrong with the Israelis. No other country would act as good as Israel if was in the same situation. You'll get it when you fight with Arabs, you'll get it when in 50 years Muslims will already be majority in Europe.

Too bad this is world of hypocrites."

There is no discussing reason with you, it seems.

The situation is not one-sided because the Palestinians are still being subjugated. If anything you should feel even more sympathetic for the Palestinians because such a deranged organization is their major group. You'd rather blame Islam and Arabs, though, it seems.

[zoolrule]

At 12/25/08 03:37 PM, Tancrisism wrote:

At 12/25/08 09:21 AM, zoolrule wrote:

beginning to think that Hamas

Beginning? You seriously don't understand what Hamas are.

They are a terror organization, they don't have the slightest care that Palestinians would die, they don't give a shit. It's actually their goal. Propaganda. Money. Power.

I posted this article a while ago -

-- Masab Yousef, the son of the the Hamas leader...

This is a very interesting article indeed.

I wonder, why can't you understand, it is one sided. The conflict is simply one sided.

Says the one who said, and I quote:

"Because those Arabs are the scum of earth willing to sacrifice their own people in order to gain propaganda, whiling to endanger their own people in order to fight Israel.

Have not ethics and moral laws and have no problem in lying and twisting the truth in order to gain propaganda.

There is nothing wrong with the Israelis. No other country would act as good as Israel if was in the same situation. You'll get it when you fight with Arabs, you'll get it when in 50 years Muslims will already be majority in Europe.

Too bad this is world of hypocrites."

There is no discussing reason with you, it seems.

The situation is not one-sided because the Palestinians are still being subjugated. If anything you should feel even more sympathetic for the Palestinians because such a deranged organization is their major group. You'd rather blame Islam and Arabs, though, it seems.

I stand for what i said.
Sympathize? Why would sympathize with them? They had uncountable amount of opportunities and chances for real peace.
And again, 2005, Israel withdrawn, they got it all on served a silver tray
Fatah - The best of a bad lot, the path of peace. (Which are a terror organization themselves)
Hamas - The same old, kill Jews, destroy Israel.
Like Israel predicted, a triumph to Hamas. This was Israel proving a point.

Sympathize with them? Fuck it, it's all we ever do. It's time to sympathize with Israel.

Hundreds of rockets shot into Israeli cities the last days, hundreds of rockets shot into Israel while the cease fire. Israel still approved the entry of 40 full trucks to Gaza. Later you say they didn't bring it on themselves.

If you still can't see it, it's simply sad.

I wonder how would the UK act if Northern Ireland would shoot rockets into Stranraer on a daily basis. Or Mexico into the USA.

[Tancrisism]

At 12/25/08 04:18 PM, zoolrule wrote: I stand for what i said.
Sympathize? Why would sympathize with them? They had uncountable amount of opportunities and chances for real peace.
And again, 2005, Israel withdrawn, they got it all on served a silver tray
Fatah - The best of a bad lot, the path of peace. (Which are a terror organization themselves)
Hamas - The same old, kill Jews, destroy Israel.
Like Israel predicted, a triumph to Hamas. This was Israel proving a point.

Sympathize with them? Fuck it, it's all we ever do. It's time to sympathize with Israel.

This is simply not true. When has the news ever said anything about the Palestinian perspective? All you hear about is Israel. And I do sympathise with the Israelis - this is why I say it is two sided.

You have an irrational personal hatred towards all Arabs, it seems, judging by the things you say (including the quote). You seem hardly better than the anti-Semetic people who pretend that the Holocaust didn't happen.

Hundreds of rockets shot into Israeli cities the last days, hundreds of rockets shot into Israel while the cease fire. Israel still approved the entry of 40 full trucks to Gaza. Later you say they didn't bring it on themselves.

If you still can't see it, it's simply sad.

Read something about what the Palestinians are going through and have gone through and you will understand their dilemma. You are so quick to condemn a whole group of people that you don't know anything about and don't understand.

Here are some links that you might feel enlightening if you actually decide to read them (which I heavily doubt you will).

Link 1.Link 2.

And let me tell you a little note about myself: My great-grandmother was a Polish Jew who made it to the US before the Nazis invaded, but the rest of her family didn't. I have visited Auschwitz, and seen the horrors that undoubtedly happened to my family.

What did I gather from it? Certainly not a hatred for Jews, but a hatred for injustice no matter who causes it. A hatred for oppression.

And now in Israel, the Israelis are both the oppressors and the oppressed.

I wonder how would the UK act if Northern Ireland would shoot rockets into Stranraer on a daily basis. Or Mexico into the USA.

Mexico isn't under American occupation; Northern Ireland formed its state and decided to stay in the British nation by popular vote; it is a small minority of radical Catholic Irish who want them to rejoin the Irish nation. They are hardly the same thing.

[zoolrule]

At 12/25/08 08:58 PM, Tancrisism wrote: You have an irrational personal hatred towards all Arabs, it seems, judging by the things you say (including the quote). You seem hardly better than the anti-Semetic people who pretend that the Holocaust didn't happen.

I have no irrational hate against Arabs, i actually have Arab friends. Don't make it look like i'm a racist, i'm sure that an Arab living in a western state could be a top citizen. However, i am opposing to the morals (Or lack of morals), in the Arab nations and culture, that should have disappeared centuries ago. And again, i'm sure that when we'll have a democratic non-Muslim Arab state, it would be just fine.
I don't hate anyone, i hate injustice.

Read something about what the Palestinians are going through and have gone through and you will understand their dilemma. You are so quick to condemn a whole group of people that you don't know anything about and don't understand.

You can trust me that i read enough, and i've seen enough. i know about the Arab-Israeli conflict a lot more than some people who consider themselves "Middle east researchers" "Doctors", These Arab "scholars", what a joke. (It ends up with people like you linking me to their articles, and considering it as piece of history). When i talk about the lack of morals and ethics, the Arab journalism and history teaching is a perfect example.
If there's something i could say i know everything about, it would be this. So please, i'll have to ask you, don't try to come from above and "educate" me.

Here are some links that you might feel enlightening if you actually decide to read them (which I heavily doubt you will).

Link 1.Link 2.

ROFL, why didn't you just link me www.ilovehitler.com and enlighten me to see how good the Nazis were?

What's wrong with you? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm fucking serious now, are you kidding me? Don't act like you didn't see were the fuck you linked me to. Just few threads ago it was you who linked me to a totally fair two sided website. Why didn't you link me from there? Fuck.
You know what? You disgust me, i have no other words to describe it. I'm feeling frustrated for some reason. This feeling, that the bad people are winning. I mean, if they got your support, a person that is interested. Those brainwashed extremist lying terrorists, they actually managed to make it look like they got a case, it makes me wonder what a normal CNN watcher guy thinks.

Reading this article for two minutes was enough for me to see it was full of lies and half trues, just the thing you'd expect from an Arabic "Objective Analysis".

Without reading the continuation, did they mention 1948 war was started by them? Did they mention that their goal was to kill every single Jew and kick them? Any thing there about the 1 million Jews they kicked in 1948 from Arab lands? What about the fact that Israel absorbed both the kicked Jews, and their Palestinians enemy? Why couldn't the Arab do it? Do you ever wonder that? Do you? What about the fact that they controlled Gaza and West bank until 67, couldn't they grant them full Arab states rights? AND SOLVED THE PROBLEM? LIKE THEY COULD IN 48 BY ACCEPTING TO PART THE LAND INSTEAD OF DECLARE A WAR? This article, does it contain anything about the hundreds of attacks on the new born state, launched through Gaza and West bank, by Palestinians, before Israel even controlled them? Does they talk about the countless of refused Israeli peace offers?
They don't have a case. They are sick people, they acted bad then, they are now. Their only tool is propaganda, and they are good at it.

And let me tell you a little note about myself: My great-grandmother was a Polish Jew who made it to the US before the Nazis invaded, but the rest of her family didn't. I have visited Auschwitz, and seen the horrors that undoubtedly happened to my family.

So what? You could be fucking Moses himself as much as i care.

What did I gather from it? Certainly not a hatred for Jews, but a hatred for injustice no matter who causes it. A hatred for oppression.

Ehhhh, injustice. Ironically, you are now supporting it (knowingly or unknowingly), and people like you are what keeps it alive.

And now in Israel, the Israelis are both the oppressors and the oppressed.

Now, i'm glad you pointed out the now. The way we reached the situation is much more important.

I wonder how would the UK act if Northern Ireland would shoot rockets into Stranraer on a daily basis. Or Mexico into the USA.

Mexico isn't under American occupation; Northern Ireland formed its state and decided to stay in the British nation by popular vote; it is a small minority of radical Catholic Irish who want them to rejoin the Irish nation. They are hardly the same thing.

I was trying to prove a point, and illustrate the situation a bit, stop focusing on the bland. What's hard to understand? Imagine these weaker countries shooting on the more powerful countries (UK, US) on a daily basis, is it that hard to understand? Tell me how do you think they would react. And don't lie. Because we both know they would bomb and flatten the shit out of them.

Just for the sake of it, neither is Gaza occupied.
What would be your next excuse? What another way would you find to defend the "poor mistreated Palestinians"

I must point out - i wrote it after not sleeping for at least 20 hours, and while being quite drunk, and since i have bad English anyway, sorry for the mistakes that are probably out there.
IM SO FUCKIGN TIRED GOOD NIGHT

[Tancrisism]

At 12/26/08 12:09 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 12/25/08 08:58 PM, Tancrisism wrote: You have an irrational personal hatred towards all Arabs, it seems, judging by the things you say (including the quote). You seem hardly better than the anti-Semetic people who pretend that the Holocaust didn't happen.

I have no irrational hate against Arabs, i actually have Arab friends. Don't make it look like i'm a racist, i'm sure that an Arab living in a western state could be a top citizen. However, i am opposing to the morals (Or lack of morals), in the Arab nations and culture, that should have disappeared centuries ago. And again, i'm sure that when we'll have a democratic non-Muslim Arab state, it would be just fine.

I am not trying to paint you in any way to try to discredit your arguments, I am drawing attention to something you have said and still stand by. Did I misunderstand it?

You can trust me that i read enough, and i've seen enough. i know about the Arab-Israeli conflict a lot more than some people who consider themselves "Middle east researchers" "Doctors", These Arab "scholars", what a joke. (It ends up with people like you linking me to their articles, and considering it as piece of history). When i talk about the lack of morals and ethics, the Arab journalism and history teaching is a perfect example.

I think the problem I have is how broadly you use the word "Arab". I don't think it is quite true, what you say - some places like Morocco are a bit more ahead of non-Arab yet still Muslim places like Afghanistan. Arab =/= Muslim, and Muslim =/= Arab.

But I do know the type you are talking about, and it is sometimes hard to sort through the propaganda and the truth, especially in this situation.

If there's something i could say i know everything about, it would be this. So please, i'll have to ask you, don't try to come from above and "educate" me.

I highly, highly doubt this.

Here are some links that you might feel enlightening if you actually decide to read them (which I heavily doubt you will).

Link 1.Link 2.

ROFL, why didn't you just link me www.ilovehitler.com and enlighten me to see how good the Nazis were?

What's wrong with you? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm fucking serious now, are you kidding me? Don't act like you didn't see were the fuck you linked me to. Just few threads ago it was you who linked me to a totally fair two sided website. Why didn't you link me from there? Fuck.

I actually didn't read it thoroughly enough to see that it is completely one-sided. I apologize. You are right to get frustrated, that was stupid of me.

The author they cite, though, Benny Morris, is not as bad as the site is. He is an Israeli who has criticized the past of Israel and Palestine, challenged the traditional view in the West, yet still today he is very critical of the leaders of these Arabic countries in question. Now that I think I am beginning to understand more where you come from, I don't think he is the type of person you would put too much doubt into.

And now in Israel, the Israelis are both the oppressors and the oppressed.

Now, i'm glad you pointed out the now. The way we reached the situation is much more important.

And there were still injustices committed on both sides - forceful deportations as well as the wars started both outside (by Egypt and other Arabic countries) early on and inside. Life for an Israeli has never been easy; neither has life for a Palestinian, ever since the mid thirties.

By the way, when I talk about the countries I talk about the people, not the government or major political powers. When I talk about Germany in the 30's and 40's I am talking about the Germans - if I am talking about the Nazis I will say Nazis. The term Palestinians and Arabs should not be able to be swapped so easily with groups like Hamas.

I was trying to prove a point, and illustrate the situation a bit, stop focusing on the bland. What's hard to understand? Imagine these weaker countries shooting on the more powerful countries (UK, US) on a daily basis, is it that hard to understand? Tell me how do you think they would react. And don't lie. Because we both know they would bomb and flatten the shit out of them.

I would be very against it, though.

Just for the sake of it, neither is Gaza occupied.

Not by Israel, true. I don't think you would disagree with me that they are occupied by Hamas, though.

What would be your next excuse? What another way would you find to defend the "poor mistreated Palestinians"

Well, I think my previous statement sounds fair, in that sense...

I must point out - i wrote it after not sleeping for at least 20 hours, and while being quite drunk, and since i have bad English anyway, sorry for the mistakes that are probably out there.
IM SO FUCKIGN TIRED GOOD NIGHT

I must commend you sir, you seemed pretty coherent.

[Achilles2]

How do they hope to liberate Palestine if all they do is provoke Israel to tighten the area up?

Instead of warring with Israel (which will lead you nowhere), they should step aside and let the PNA and Israel negotiate a treaty. It's too late for that now, though.

[zoolrule]

At 12/26/08 02:22 AM, Tancrisism wrote: I am not trying to paint you in any way to try to discredit your arguments, I am drawing attention to something you have said and still stand by. Did I misunderstand it?

I think you probably did. "Those" Arabs was pointing out specific group. And the Arabic nations in general, who are Muslim as well. I already said that i didn't aim it to every specific Arab in his genetics.

I think the problem I have is how broadly you use the word "Arab". I don't think it is quite true, what you say - some places like Morocco are a bit more ahead of non-Arab yet still Muslim places like Afghanistan. Arab =/= Muslim, and Muslim =/= Arab.

They could be ahead of non-Arabs, really doesn't change anything to me.
I am referring to the Arabic-Muslim nations, and their acts.

I highly, highly doubt this.

Well, OK?

The author they cite, though, Benny Morris, is not as bad as the site is. He is an Israeli who has criticized the past of Israel and Palestine, challenged the traditional view in the West, yet still today he is very critical of the leaders of these Arabic countries in question. Now that I think I am beginning to understand more where you come from, I don't think he is the type of person you would put too much doubt into.

There are many, many Israelis who criticize Israel, it's not something new. Israel is a democratic state, you don't get hanged in the street if you talk against the government, like you probably know where.
However, Benny is an extreme left wing, and is widely disrespected by many scholars, he accused Israelis for rape and torture acts, which were proven to be unbased and unproven - to made up. The fact that he is Israeli doesn't prove a thing. Remember you said it's hard to filter propaganda? There it is at it's best, he was even criticized by Arabs themselves. Just for you.

And there were still injustices committed on both sides - forceful deportations as well as the wars started both outside (by Egypt and other Arabic countries) early on and inside. Life for an Israeli has never been easy; neither has life for a Palestinian, ever since the mid thirties.

There are forceful deportations committed by the Israelis, however, i do not see them as injustices.
I'll try to sum it for you :

1947 - Partition plan - Two nations. One Jewish (40% Jewish actually), another nation is Arab (99% Arab), all that after the Palestinians got all of Transjordan.

Jews accepted it, Arabs refused, by claiming things that all generally mean - "Not even one Jew will live in this land" (They were the higher powe in the region at the time, of course).

Everyone knew that the Arabs are invading, and at least 25% of the Palestinians already fled before the war, supported by the Arabs. (To clear the battle ground)

Many of the ones who didn't flee, supported the invading Arab armies, that came to destroy Israel.

Weak Israel won the war (At the time Israel's rightness was undoubted, the world saw them as heroes. But that's long before the fog of propaganda came).

1948 - Arabs kick hundreds of thousands of Jews, that Israel had to absorb. And at the same time, didn't absorb their own Palestinian brothers, in order to fight Israel. So Israel had to absorb 150,000 of their own ENEMY. Do you get it? But the Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps, instead of giving them home. What happens after that? Attacks, wars and bombings on Israel by the Palestinians and the Arabs. Wow, real injustice done to the Palestinians.

That's basically how the conflict was, until 1967 when Israel made a great victory against the Arab nations, and conquered the Palestinian territories as well. And became the stronger power in the Mid-East. Do you ever wonder what happened with the Palestinians between 1948 to 1967? Ah?

By the way, when I talk about the countries I talk about the people, not the government or major political powers. When I talk about Germany in the 30's and 40's I am talking about the Germans - if I am talking about the Nazis I will say Nazis. The term Palestinians and Arabs should not be able to be swapped so easily with groups like Hamas.

Well, the term Palestinians - Hamas - Terrorists is pretty interchangeable.

I was trying to prove a point, and illustrate the situation a bit, stop focusing on the bland. What's hard to understand? Imagine these weaker countries shooting on the more powerful countries (UK, US) on a daily basis, is it that hard to understand? Tell me how do you think they would react. And don't lie. Because we both know they would bomb and flatten the shit out of them.

I would be very against it, though.

Exactly! They would flatten them, but many of them still criticize Israel.
WHO DOESN'T DO IT, EVEN THOUGH IT IS ABLE TO. CAN YOU FINALLY SEE IT?
Do you know how many times the IDF think before they even bomb a rocket launching squad, just because they fear they could hurt the "civilians" that are giving shelter to the terrorists? Preferring your enemies life for your own. Where have we seen that, where in the fucking world?

You must get it, the situation today, powerful Israel. Is justice at it's best. The victory of the good. You should be happy.

Just for the sake of it, neither is Gaza occupied.

Not by Israel, true. I don't think you would disagree with me that they are occupied by Hamas, though.

Wait, are we talking about the Hamas who had a decisive undoubted victory in the elections? When the large majoirty of the Palestinians voted to Hamas, they knew very well that their platform is:
Destroy Israel, and compromise for nothing else.
Kill as many Jews as possible.
Endanger civilians by doing so.

It's their fucking flag saying.

Well, I think my previous statement sounds fair, in that sense...

I think not.

I must commend you sir, you seemed pretty coherent.

Well, i did my best.

In the picture, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, in the Hamas support rally.
How they cheered when Khaled Mashal yelled they don't and never will recognize Israel as a country. (Can you see the irony? They. THEY STILL DON'T RECOGNIZE ISRAEL, AND ISRAEL RECOGNIZES THEM. And still people can fucking support them. Where in hell have we seen that?)

I can't tell you how i felt when a Hamas officer dressed and acted as the kidnapped Israeli soldier, praying and crying for his life, on the stage.
I can't tell you how i felt when i heard the crowd cheering and laughing.

[Tancrisism]

At 12/26/08 11:39 AM, zoolrule wrote: I think you probably did. "Those" Arabs was pointing out specific group. And the Arabic nations in general, who are Muslim as well. I already said that i didn't aim it to every specific Arab in his genetics.

Alright, I see.

There are many, many Israelis who criticize Israel, it's not something new. Israel is a democratic state, you don't get hanged in the street if you talk against the government, like you probably know where.

This is true, and your retort about Benny boy is fair enough.

There are forceful deportations committed by the Israelis, however, i do not see them as injustices.
I'll try to sum it for you :

1948 - Arabs kick hundreds of thousands of Jews, that Israel had to absorb. And at the same time, didn't absorb their own Palestinian brothers, in order to fight Israel.

All the more reason to be sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, I would think, if they have even been abused by the Arabs.

So Israel had to absorb 150,000 of their own ENEMY. Do you get it? But the Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps, instead of giving them home. What happens after that? Attacks, wars and bombings on Israel by the Palestinians and the Arabs. Wow, real injustice done to the Palestinians.

The injustice is clearly towards the Israelis too, don't get me wrong.

By the way, when I talk about the countries I talk about the people, not the government or major political powers. When I talk about Germany in the 30's and 40's I am talking about the Germans - if I am talking about the Nazis I will say Nazis. The term Palestinians and Arabs should not be able to be swapped so easily with groups like Hamas.

Well, the term Palestinians - Hamas - Terrorists is pretty interchangeable.

No. No it isn't. Hamas and Terrorists, perhaps, but not Palestinians.

I was trying to prove a point, and illustrate the situation a bit, stop focusing on the bland. What's hard to understand? Imagine these weaker countries shooting on the more powerful countries (UK, US) on a daily basis, is it that hard to understand? Tell me how do you think they would react. And don't lie. Because we both know they would bomb and flatten the shit out of them.

I would be very against it, though.

Exactly! They would flatten them, but many of them still criticize Israel.
WHO DOESN'T DO IT, EVEN THOUGH IT IS ABLE TO. CAN YOU FINALLY SEE IT?

So due to the fact that they don't completely destroy Gaza and the West Bank, they are a divine political body?

Do you know how many times the IDF think before they even bomb a rocket launching squad, just because they fear they could hurt the "civilians" that are giving shelter to the terrorists? Preferring your enemies life for your own. Where have we seen that, where in the fucking world?

You must get it, the situation today, powerful Israel. Is justice at it's best. The victory of the good. You should be happy.

Right, because politics can be that clear.

Just for the sake of it, neither is Gaza occupied.

Not by Israel, true. I don't think you would disagree with me that they are occupied by Hamas, though.

Wait, are we talking about the Hamas who had a decisive undoubted victory in the elections? When the large majoirty of the Palestinians voted to Hamas, they knew very well that their platform is:
Destroy Israel, and compromise for nothing else.
Kill as many Jews as possible.
Endanger civilians by doing so.

It's their fucking flag saying.

Right. And the Germans democratically elected Hitler as chancellor. Does that make them Nazis, Fascists, or anti-Semites?

I can't tell you how i felt when a Hamas officer dressed and acted as the kidnapped Israeli soldier, praying and crying for his life, on the stage.
I can't tell you how i felt when i heard the crowd cheering and laughing.

It's fucked, definitely. So fucked. That crowd is not all of Palestine though.

[zoolrule]

There it goes, Hamas got what they wanted, after 70 rockets a day Israel invaded Gaza again.

Now the propaganda begins.

Is there any question here why the invasion happened?

[Mr-President]

Actually, it seems like with the approximately 200 dead in the Israeli rocket attack, it's just going to get worse for both sides.

[heroicspatula]

the Israeli response

I think Israel is going about this the wrong way. They should attack Hamas, but no civilian casualties should be accepted; all it does is allow for more hatred towards Israel, and more propaganda for Hamas.

For example, Said Masri, a Gaza citizen, more than likely lost his son(whom was buying cigs) during the bombing; this lead to him saying: "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn,"

As seen above, these kind of attacks create even more of a reason for the citizens in Gaza to hate Israel; they don't even need the propaganda to tell them to.

I think Israel needs to either A) not carpet bomb, I.E. have determined targets or B) Have a department of the Mossad (Israeli equivalent of the CIA) focus on Gaza, and conduct attacks when necessary.

[Doonie1]

At 12/27/08 02:29 PM, heroicspatula wrote: the Israeli response

I think Israel is going about this the wrong way. They should attack Hamas, but no civilian casualties should be accepted; all it does is allow for more hatred towards Israel, and more propaganda for Hamas.

They attacked with minimum power, trying to get as lowest amount of civilian casualties as possible.
It is very hard in Gaza, especially when Hamas are using them as human shield.

For example, Said Masri, a Gaza citizen, more than likely lost his son(whom was buying cigs) during the bombing; this lead to him saying: "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn,"

Well, unavoidable.

As seen above, these kind of attacks create even more of a reason for the citizens in Gaza to hate Israel; they don't even need the propaganda to tell them to.

Israel have halted this attack for 2 years, until it was impossible to wait anymore.
70 rockets at Israeli cities per day.
After Israel sent 90 humanitarian aid trucks to gaza, in order to make Hamas stop the rockets.
Asking for the cease fire again and again, Hamas was sure Israel wont do a thing, and even if it will, they get propaganda like they wanted.
What do you expect them to do else?
Seriously tell me.

I think Israel needs to either A) not carpet bomb, I.E. have determined targets or B) Have a department of the Mossad (Israeli equivalent of the CIA) focus on Gaza, and conduct attacks when necessary.

It's much more complicated than you think.

[heroicspatula]

At 12/27/08 02:42 PM, Doonie1 wrote:

At 12/27/08 02:29 PM, heroicspatula wrote: the Israeli response

I think Israel is going about this the wrong way. They should attack Hamas, but no civilian casualties should be accepted; all it does is allow for more hatred towards Israel, and more propaganda for Hamas.

They attacked with minimum power, trying to get as lowest amount of civilian casualties as possible.
It is very hard in Gaza, especially when Hamas are using them as human shield.

I realize that, but that is why I am opposed to the carpet bombing.

For example, Said Masri, a Gaza citizen, more than likely lost his son(whom was buying cigs) during the bombing; this lead to him saying: "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn,"

Well, unavoidable.

I realize that, I was just giving an example.

As seen above, these kind of attacks create even more of a reason for the citizens in Gaza to hate Israel; they don't even need the propaganda to tell them to.

Israel have halted this attack for 2 years, until it was impossible to wait anymore.
70 rockets at Israeli cities per day.
After Israel sent 90 humanitarian aid trucks to gaza, in order to make Hamas stop the rockets.
Asking for the cease fire again and again, Hamas was sure Israel wont do a thing, and even if it will, they get propaganda like they wanted.
What do you expect them to do else?
Seriously tell me.

Again, I know, but when fighting against an enemy who has the citizens backing them, your best bet is to win the citizens.

I think Israel needs to either A) not carpet bomb, I.E. have determined targets or B) Have a department of the Mossad (Israeli equivalent of the CIA) focus on Gaza, and conduct attacks when necessary.

It's much more complicated than you think.

Yeah, it is, but since I'm trying to keep things simplified, I gave those small ideas.
The Mossad is what I believe to the best bet to stop these attacks; all Israel needs to do is remove top level Hamas. If you don't know, the Mossad is good at those kinds of assassinations.

[Tancrisism]

At 12/27/08 02:55 PM, heroicspatula wrote: Again, I know, but when fighting against an enemy who has the citizens backing them, your best bet is to win the citizens.

You must realize, though, that it is rather hard to concentrate on diplomatic efforts when your citizens are getting pounded by 70 rockets a day. It leaves little room to concentrate on anything but military retaliation.

Yeah, it is, but since I'm trying to keep things simplified, I gave those small ideas.
The Mossad is what I believe to the best bet to stop these attacks; all Israel needs to do is remove top level Hamas. If you don't know, the Mossad is good at those kinds of assassinations.

Perhaps. Chances are they have actually already been working pretty hard at doing something like that, I think. This isn't a time of espionage, though. Right now I think their reaction was pretty understandable, although I wonder what it will lead to.

[mangostenmaster]

Israel Attacked Gaza today with well over 200 deaths. Of these, only about 15 were Civillian. Over 150 Hamas millitants were killed! (Yay!). You see, when the Arabs attack, they fire at random, with the Qasam. The Jews (I think they were right to do this) are conscious on who they kill, and try to avoid killing civillians because they have a conscious. I think this has gone well for Israel. I am so proud!!!!!

Unfortunately, I also feel bad for the 15 Civillian deaths of the Arabs. Yet, Israel had one Civillian death. )=

[JackPhantasm]

Man my aunts told me that PAKISTAN bombed israel.

I had to go straight to the news to make sure the world wasn't going to end.

So it's just the jews and the palestinians at it again.

Fucking shit.

WHEN are these kids going to grow the fuck up?

[Creek]

I think Israel is going about this the wrong way. They should attack Hamas, but no civilian casualties should be accepted; all it does is allow for more hatred towards Israel, and more propaganda for Hamas.

I'm sorry, but this sounds ridiculous. I wish you were exposed to more information before making this assumption. I will attempt to give you a better perspective on how Israel conducts the attacks, and they way Palestinians are involved.

Have you ever heard of human shields? Palestinian civilians amongst the terrorists?
Palestinians fight dirty. How dirty? They hold children in front of their body's while a terrorist fires at Israeli soldiers.

Why? They know the Israeli soldiers would hesitate to attack because they can possibly shoot a child by accident. K

eep in mind not everyone all the time can shoot with 100% accuracy, and that's where the civilian casualties come from. Now for the palestinians this is a win-win scenario.

If they use civilians as human shields, they might possibly not get shot back at. If the civilians die, they are used as propaganda tools. BBC would have a headline similiar to this "Israeli soldiers kill 2 terrorists and 7 civilians including children"

I think Israel needs to either A) not carpet bomb, I.E. have determined targets or B) Have a department of the Mossad (Israeli equivalent of the CIA) focus on Gaza, and conduct attacks when necessary.

It's much more complicated than you think.

I think it's much more complicated then you think. So what do you suggest, Israel reoccupying? Mossad?? to stop every single rocket? impossible! Israel has no other way to retaliate Hamas has forced itself into this situation.

Try to understand that Hamas wants civilian casualties, they are useful propaganda tools. As you see in yourself, they cause you to sympathize. Keep another thing in mind, If that man (the father) says anything Hamas doesn't want him to say, he will die. Nobody goes against the government in that region, it's not America.