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It (Communism) definatly is not Obsolete, it's actually coming back into fashion

Nope. Dissent is coming back into fashion. Most of it isn't communist.

Alot of it is leftist, I'm a big fan of solidarity among the left(The United Front, Trotsky)

OK, maybe not Che. He just got unlucky. But Trotsky was too unskilled in realpolitik to effectively battle Stalin in the struggle for power in Russia after Lenin's death. He was a great intellectual, a compassionate man and might have been a good leader. But he wasn't tough enough to survive.

He could hvae easily beaten Stalin, however he chose to fight with the pen instead of figthing politically

Genoa isn't communist. It isn't even organised. There's a mix of communists, socialists, environmentalists, human rights campaigners and numerous other activists. A laudable protest definitely, but a chaotic and undirected one.

It is irrelevant that it is not communist, it shows that people are unhappy, to convert them to communism is not a hard task.

At 7/21/01 03:07 PM, Slizor wrote:

Nope. Dissent is coming back into fashion. Most of it isn't communist.

Alot of it is leftist, I'm a big fan of solidarity among the left(The United Front, Trotsky)

I agree. But its also incredibly diverse and to find a common direction in terms of general ideology rather than just certain issues will be hard.

OK, maybe not Che. He just got unlucky. But Trotsky was too unskilled in realpolitik to effectively battle Stalin in the struggle for power in Russia after Lenin's death. He was a great intellectual, a compassionate man and might have been a good leader. But he wasn't tough enough to survive.

He could hvae easily beaten Stalin, however he chose to fight with the pen instead of figthing politically

And, unfortunately, doomed the entire communist movement in Russia to Stalin's barbarity and invited the demonisation of not only a regime but also of an ideology. I can understand his reasons for choosing his path, but I believe that he let down his people, his class and his principles by not fighting for them more effectively. As Lenin said 'The ends justify the means'.

Genoa isn't communist. It isn't even organised. There's a mix of communists, socialists, environmentalists, human rights campaigners and numerous other activists. A laudable protest definitely, but a chaotic and undirected one.

It is irrelevant that it is not communist, it shows that people are unhappy, to convert them to communism is not a hard task.

Well... that's a bit of a sweeping statement. I wouldn't be hard to convert them to anarchists, fascists or religious zealots either maybe, at least if Germany in the late 1920's is any precedent. Care to elaborate?

I agree. But its also incredibly diverse and to find a common direction in terms of general ideology rather than just certain issues will be hard.

I know many leftist parties (especially in Britain) have suffered from inner party factionlism, but I think that most of the leftist share common ground, not the authoritarians though, screw them.

And, unfortunately, doomed the entire communist movement in Russia to Stalin's barbarity and invited the demonisation of not only a regime but also of an ideology. I can understand his reasons for choosing his path, but I believe that he let down his people, his class and his principles by not fighting for them more effectively. As Lenin said 'The ends justify the means'.

In the words of Trotsky "Control your leaders" he may have been a part of the reason Stalin got to power, and he could have stopped it, but so were the russian people.(You may have realised Ernesto and Leon are my fav communists)

Well... that's a bit of a sweeping statement. I wouldn't be hard to convert them to anarchists, fascists or religious zealots either maybe, at least if Germany in the late 1920's is any precedent. Care to elaborate?

Ok well not convert them, more join forces with them and incorperate. Communists and Anarchists share many views, communism even ends in anarchy!

At 7/21/01 07:18 AM, Slizor wrote: Anarchy: That is only in small communties, which happen to be surrounded by Capitilism.

Worm:You are a idiot

Shrapnel: Nuke says that his friend converted him, not promised him anything

I think someone needs more iron in his diet.

At 7/14/01 01:50 PM, -NuKe- wrote: a friend at camp converted me...now that i think about it, communism might work!

True communism is that everyone gets equal pay but look at the coomunist countries they are greedy people don't get equal treatment and look in Cuba the thing they want most is not US of A dollars but soap and all of those countries are milata

Shrapnel: I eat bar of iron a day

True communism is that everyone gets equal pay but look at the coomunist countries they are greedy people don't get equal treatment and look in Cuba the thing they want most is not US of A dollars but soap and all of those countries are milata

True writing involves full stops.

At 7/21/01 09:49 PM, yanksox wrote:

At 7/14/01 01:50 PM, -NuKe- wrote: a friend at camp converted me...now that i think about it, communism might work!

True communism is that everyone gets equal pay but look at the coomunist countries...

Ok this is the biggest myth about communism that really bugs me, the equal pay myth.

The value of service in a communist country is Labour value, those who work harder at your job get payed more (labour=$).

This is opposed to the determinate of value in captalism, the duel gods of supply and demand, where your labor value is determinate on how much the captalist desides what is the least amount of money he can pay you without you leaving.

OK, maybe not Che. He just got unlucky. But Trotsky was too unskilled in realpolitik to effectively battle Stalin in the struggle for power in Russia after Lenin's death. He was a great intellectual, a compassionate man and might have been a good leader. But he wasn't tough enough to survive.

He could hvae easily beaten Stalin, however he chose to fight with the pen instead of figthing politically

He could have easily beaten stalin? He could have easily BEEN Staling. I have heard too many people glorify Trotsky as though he was the shining star of justice in russia, the truth is that he sent many men to their deaths as well and was far from the utopian minded scholar that is portaryed by the schools.

Skewed - Ooo. Someone's pissed off that they're only making minimum wage... If you honestly believe that any society will function when items and services will be worth any more than what people are willing to give for them then good luck to you.

Anarchypenguin - True. But name me one wartime leader who hasn't and wouldn't send a man to his death for the sake of victory and I'll be impressed. The only revolutionary (in a slightly unconventional sense) who was able to do it was Gandhi - and his circumstances were very particular to his struggle.

Jeezy Creezy.

Does anybody on this board have even the slightest idea of what communism is? Not from what I've seen.

All I see is row after row of people who have been brainwashed by either:

1) Bourgeois Media (these people are againt communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

2) Leninist Authoritarians - Including Trotskysits (these people are for communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

At 7/27/01 02:44 PM, Anachronist wrote: Jeezy Creezy.

Does anybody on this board have even the slightest idea of what communism is? Not from what I've seen.

All I see is row after row of people who have been brainwashed by either:

1) Bourgeois Media (these people are againt communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

2) Leninist Authoritarians - Including Trotskysits (these people are for communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

Well thank-you for that enlightening post Comrade. So are you just going to sit there and be superior or are you going to try and set us straight and post something other than vacuous, smug egotism?

If you can see that we've been brain-washed, why don't you have a go at de-programming us?

At 7/27/01 02:44 PM, Anachronist wrote: Jeezy Creezy.

Does anybody on this board have even the slightest idea of what communism is? Not from what I've seen.

All I see is row after row of people who have been brainwashed by either:

1) Bourgeois Media (these people are againt communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

2) Leninist Authoritarians - Including Trotskysits (these people are for communism, even though they don't know shit about it).

Ok, then please tell us what kind of communism you propose. It's a bit hard to have a debate when we don't know what to debate over. I've been using mainly the communist manifesto becuase I'm not a supporter of communism and haven't seen much of a decleration of the communist topic. Please propose a synopsis of what your idea of a succesful communist society would be.

At 7/21/01 06:53 AM, Shrapnel wrote:

At 7/14/01 01:50 PM, -NuKe- wrote: a friend at camp converted me...now that i think about it, communism might work!

Did he also promise you flying cars and the end to human suffering?

Uhh..are you an idiot? i dont mean to be so bold, but thats just what a comment like that gets. Use your head you fool..

The more posts i read on this topic, the more ignorant most people seem to be nowadays...except for a few of you who put up some very valid arguments. What saddens me is how simple minded people, especially teenagers (for the most part) are...Arent we the ones who tell parents to be more open minded???

Seems to me that some of your are just looking for someone to pick on because you have nothing better to do.

Fuck Communism. Go out right now and read 1984 by George Orwell, Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, and Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. There is no such thing as non-authoritarian communism. The closest to that is socialism. Socialism is the same as communism but less bloody. In communism government is GOD! FUCK THAT I SAY! Did it ever occur to you that there is no free expression in communist countries? Newgrounds would be shut down and we would probably all be in jail. The content providers here would probably be awaiting execution. Freedom of expression is the one thing I will fight and die for (and I am a pacifist). Communism goes against everything I believe.

Look here Mr. Lar-de-dar, Marx didn't say shit about totalatarianism. It's not like communism has even been welcomed/allowed. Vietnam-war, North Korea-war, Cuba-Bay of Pigs invasion. The U.S., Western Europe are rich because other countries are poor. Communism doesn't equate to mediocrity, it equates to equal.

Look here you commy, only lazy fag (like yourself as I imagine) supports communisim because you never worked a day in your life and you goof off and now you are whining about all the rich people and you want to be equal with them. Maybe if you payed more attention in class you wouldn't be payin now

Ah the joy of having to open many windows to reply to this
If I was brain-washed by "Leninist Authoritarians" then why would I also want anarchy? Why would I even read Marx?!

Fr0sTy: you haven't even said which side you support or given any ideas at all!

Cthulhu5: You walked straight into it there, 1984 is against authoritarian communism, it shows a warping of communism, until it is so warped it looks nothing like the ideology. Now grow up and actually pick up a book.

**rubs his hands together**

Look here you commy, only lazy fag (like yourself as I imagine) supports communisim because you never worked a day in your life and you goof off and now you are whining about all the rich people and you want to be equal with them. Maybe if you payed more attention in class you wouldn't be payin now

Yep I'm sure paying for it now, I've hit rock-bottom I have, I mean I'm 15 and I'm jobless, boo hoo! Yep I support communism 'cos I'm lazy, of course what a lovely insight there, I mean it causing a revolution is an easy thing to, and over-hauling the class structure? Piece of piss.

he had to convert to even get you to think it was a little good. listen, people like stalin are everywhere so don't even say it would work. the only reason it is working in china and mongolia is their are so many people the ruler doesn't try to be tyrannical.

At 8/8/01 09:33 AM, lnspectahDeck wrote: he had to convert to even get you to think it was a little good. listen, people like stalin are everywhere so don't even say it would work. the only reason it is working in china and mongolia is their are so many people the ruler doesn't try to be tyrannical.

Thats an amesingly stupid assumption. You're saying "becuase there are currupt people, a system of government will always be currupt". In the U.S. there are people who hold as much power as a dictator, albeit they are not in the public eye. Non-authroitarian communism however, does not have One ruler. It's a commune, so to say becuase there are currupt rulers, then a non authoritarian government will be currupt, makes no sense. I'm not supporting or despairaging communism, but the arguement you made is insane.

... And Communism working in china and mongolia???
Chinese Communism is FAR from ideal. It's just another exuse for a dictatorship. You seem to have a lack of understanding for simple concepts.

At 7/14/01 07:23 PM, BunnyInnards wrote: Communism is great but unfortunately it won't work because the rich want to keep on being rich. In commusnism everone would be equal. Imagine how much the scum sucking capitalist pigs of america would hate that. They couldnt have just as much money as everyone else. They have to have MORE. See what i mean. Communism would only work if we killed a whole bunch of ignorant fucks first like Dr. Laura Schlessinger and the person who posted that liberals are stupid thing.

You're an idiot.

That said, communism is a great way to go in theory, but there are major unresolvable problems in the execution.

Number one: It takes people to make any system of government work, and people are not all "bigger picture" philanthropist types. Most of you will tell me that you would be fine with communism, but if it were implemented, and you were assigned (Yes. Assigned.) a job as a brain surgeon, saving lives, you'd get pretty disenchanted once you saw your next door neighbor eating the same food as you, making as much money as you, and living in the same house as you even though he bags groceries -- and badly. Furthermore, just as he's found that he gets the same things coming to him whether he bags groceries poorly or well, so will everyone else, with respect to their jobs, and they, as people, will go the easier route. Shit falls apart fast when no one pulls it together.

Number two: Communism is a system of government. As such, it needs to be both implemented and supervised. By whom? People. If a person is in charge of determining what everyone gets, you can bet that person will get a hell of a lot more than the next guy, and when many people are getting a hell of a lot more, the next guy gets a hell of a lot less. This way, even though no one person owns any property, power is still in the hands of an elite, and Mr. Proletarian still gets fucked in the bootyhole.

So, sure; communism might work. It just won't until every person is perfect, and when that day comes, fuck communism; we might as well go with anarchy.