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At 4/5/05 11:35 PM, commanderkai wrote: I sometimes wonder why I bother to keep bumping this thread

Apologies, but i cannot be bothered answering this, i tried and it wont fit, and i cant be arsed with doing two posts, as i'm going to try to write an interpretation of modern marxist theory on here very soon. Thank you for being a good debater, who kept puerile insults to a minimum, unlike the backwards people in the thread on psychology i started. Thank you again for admitting to your stubbornness, it means i can now admit i am :)

At 4/7/05 10:37 PM, Clashbakk wrote: Though I am not a psychiatry or clinical psychology student, I have parents who are both certified psychiatrists. Almost half of your arguement is bullshit, and the other is completely biased. People don't become depressed because of famine and world disease (though a disease within thier family or friends may make them depressed), they become depressed because of issues AFFECTING THEM. In this world, no person is getting severely depressed over any of those issues. Yes, your ideas are screaming Marxism, and you are completely getting psychiatry and psychology mixed up. So, do some research and SSSSSSSHHHH!

Wow. I'm going to listen to a descendant of people who are tools of the system. You must be american, as no other country has ever truly lived up to its stereotype of ARROGANCE AND NARROWMINDEDNESS. You assume cos you're parents are psychology staff, you know about everyones problems? My parents are medical staff of the body, and i dont pretend to know about everyones little cut or major problem.

Also, please explain to me in terms that have observable evidence that my argument is bullshit. I doubt very much you can shake me. And as for the bias, YOU ARE BIASED, YOU HYPOCRITE. ITS CALLED HAVING A STAND ON AN ARGUMENT.

At 4/7/05 10:05 PM, VIVI wrote: I am a clinical psychology major and I think that this post is completely biased with no proof to back the comments made. What evidence of poor young black men being

What evidence is there that you're a psychology major? For now i'll assume you're truthful however, and treat you with the according respect....

diagnosed with schizophrenia did you find and what are your sources???? We train for years to do what we do and it is for the greater good of society. Do you honestly think people of an unsound mind should be wandering in the streets??? Everyone deserves

I think people of unsound mind should be ignored until SOCIETY is fixed. What you do, is be part of the capitalist machine. Whether you are harming or benefitting individuals, the main benefit goes to the system, because the people will be distracted from the point that there IS an old boys network, as is commonly shown to exist in the law system. And if it exists in the instituion that affects all the other institutions, why not in clinical psychology? Which is also a MALE DOMINATED field.

to be helped and guided through times of difficultly and if you ask me I think that this nation is seriously lacking in adaquate funding for community mental health services and a lot of people are going misdiagnosed because of it. I suggest you do a little more research or go take a psychology course at a nationally accredited university before you make such an uneducated remark about the mental health of the nation.

Why should i willingly go allow myself to be fooled by the system, so that i can happily inflict its will on the people? Why should I do anything by YOUR definition, just because you have a STATE approved degree? How about the money and resources go into fixing society first, so that less psychology is needed afterwards. I see this last point is the problem, because if society was more healthy, there'd be less work for psychologists......

At 4/6/05 06:38 PM, jmaster306 wrote:

At 4/6/05 09:27 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: Observing the true nature of the world is not mindless fluff.

I consider it midless fluff when your real message in talking about clinical psychology had to do more with your larger ideas on how soceity is corrupt. When somebody starts talking about clinical psychology, it takes a pretty large mental leap to go from clinical psychology as a medical practice and clinical psychology as a tool of

It does not. It only takes observation and lack of naivety.

oppression from the rich government. Do you see the difference that me and JoS are talking about now? We didn't see that difference at the start because you didn't make it clear. Then when your message "changed" in our eyes, it bugged us.

I apologise that there is a connection between the effect of clinical psychology and the innate corruption of the government, everywhere...., but its not my fault.....

If i was to write my entire theory of the system, its that complex it would take me years. I would need my own personal forum just to stick it together. Therefore i can show you parts of my argument.

I'm sure you can come up with a 2 - 3 paragraph synopsis where we could start from.

But then i will instantly receive torrents of abuse from the rednecks, like i did last time. I wouldnt mind, but they are so closed minded, that i am a leper in their eyes, even though they arent entirely in mine. Fuck it, it'll be worth it just to make the rednecks have aneurysms.

You are merely being ignorant to smear what little reputation i have. See, clinical psychology is part of the problem, education is part of it, and media, and so on and so on. I think its fine that each parts of this theory deserves a new post for each start i make. I am never hiding my true message, and if you dont like what i say, fuck off, i dont make you read what i write.

See above, you assume that we saw the situation exactly as you did when that is hardly the case.

I am being as straightforward as i can, tho i dare not to give you all my full theory, because then i would be denounced as lunatic or ignored because nearly everyone on NG could not get their heads round it, they have been too absorbed by the system. Any that understand my full view will see it in the other things i write.

See, here is the thing. You are relatively knew to the political forum and really don't know what we all believe nor our levels of comprehension in sociology and political systems. If you want this thread to be anything more than a flame war, you are going to have to stop claiming we hate you because you are marxist and make a case for what you are saying.

I have made many parts of my case. I am relatively new, yes. But i thought of all places, a site of political cartoons would have people to give me support on my views. I received not one piece of support in my original posts. Am i wrong to assume nearly everyone is against me, given the replies i have received?

At 4/6/05 04:31 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: Ok, there are a few things you keep stating that are starting to bother me. One you keep saying no one listens to your views because you are Marxist. That no one likes your Marxist views thus they just dissmiss them as stupid. This is just like pulling the race card. No one listens to be because I am black, I was demodded cause I am not white or American. SHut up about it. We arent takign you seriously because you keep using that as your excuse of why we dont believe you, that and how you say people ened help but we should abolish the system that helps them because it may be used by the gov't to brainwash people.

You dont take me seriously because you were born and indoctrinated by the capitalist system. If this doesnt apply to you, so what, its there for others to read.

This is called thinking LONG TERM. Destroy the institution, like other ideological state apparatus and rebuild it when peoples values are better.

Show me an unbiased site that has evidence of problems with clinical psychology. You say we shoudl dismantle the police and teh education sstem because they can be used to control people? So wo do you call if a psychotic woman who cant read and was just released from a mental hospital because we decided it was a dangerous thing to have comes and kill syour family? These are all neccisary institutions of a

It is unlikely to find a balanced site, as people are so polarised on the issue. Regarding the mad woman, fuck it shit happens. I'll deal with it when it happens.

functioning society, not a capitalist society, any society. There needs to be people to maintain order, to educate, to help those in need. Native tribes that were untouched by capitalism had an education system (different than our current one, but one none the
less). They had a form of law enforcement (not a sheriff but they still had a system in place) and was to help those who were emntally ill. Every society has these bodies, what do you proppose we do without an education system and no police to keep the peace?

I propose we have the revolution, and then rebuild the institutions.

And shut up with your Im Marxists so no one takes me serious bullshit. We heard you the first 5 times. Do you know what any of our political beliefs are? How do you know we aren't a Marxist too.

Wow, thats right, tell me to shut up and call me a whiner. Thats clearly a persuasive political argument. You spoon.

Because the great majority of people on here are redneck scum/ big mouthed stupid thirteen year olds. I have only seen maybe two people i can count as marxist.

And if you had communist values, perhaps you would have rallied round, perhaps like pussys you hide from the system completely, failing to try to transmit the values to those who come after us. Either way, i appear almost alone, and therefore i assume i am.

Can you handle that logic?

At 4/5/05 08:50 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: Spam, which makes you more sad, you mom being killed or some random stranger in a country you never heard of. Did you cry for the 800 000 people who died in 100 days in Rwanada in one of the worst cases of genocide since the holocost while the world stood by and let it happend?

Strangers dying of entirely natural causes does not bother me in the slightest. Thing is, poverty famine and genocide are all human constructs. I'm mostly past crying for the events that happen, and feel sad that the causes that make it happen still exist. These causes are apathy of the middle class, the cruelty of the rich, and the manipulation of the working class. The working class exist as something to both be a concession to and taunt the working class at the same time. This means individual differences are taken account of, and further divisions can be created and observed.

The gov't doesnt control clinical psycoholgy. How about we ablosh the media, which is controleld by teh gov't far mroe and has teh ability to brainwash far mroe people? But then would you argue the man is trying to take out all alternative sources of information? Clinical psycohology has teh ability to mes swith people, but not enough to make them into mindless drones, and I can't recall an instance were a psychologist has been accuse dof such a thing. You wish to ban something because fo the remote possiblity of it being abused. There are far mroe powerful things that can mess with people that are abused.

I agree, there are more powerful things. I will now list them and make myself a potential target. The military. The police. Education. Religion. Control of resources by the rich. I will cover each of these issues later. In the meantime, i'm going to slave away to get qualifications that show approval by the system just so i can live and do a job that wont drive me insane.

Everything that has been tainted by the capitalist system must be crushed, eradicated until the revolution has occured. Btw, the fact that you do not recall the acccusations against psychologists shows some things. 1. Your lack of research into the issue. try www.antipsychiatry.org. But of course, why should you care what a load of nutjobs think. Go back to your bubble.

And 2. It shows the system creating ignorance largely at work. You seem to think that the existence of both capitalist theory and its nemesis proves we live in a democracy. It only shows that communist/more socialist theory has been successfully discredited, so it can be safely ignored by the system.

At 4/5/05 09:43 PM, jmaster306 wrote: SpamWarrior it seems that you missed my biggest problem with what you are saying. "Personally I hate it when people cowardly hide their real message under midless fluff in an attempt to gain support." If you have problems with the government, them come out and say it. Don't hide your true message within another topic. I can tell you thogh, that even though I am a huge liberal, I don't believe a single word that you are saying. Even if I had, the way you presented your "argument" pissed me off enough to effectively ignore what you are saying.

Observing the true nature of the world is not mindless fluff. If i was to write my entire theory of the system, its that complex it would take me years. I would need my own personal forum just to stick it together. Therefore i can show you parts of my argument. You are merely being ignorant to smear what little reputation i have. See, clinical psychology is part of the problem, education is part of it, and media, and so on and so on. I think its fine that each parts of this theory deserves a new post for each start i make. I am never hiding my true message, and if you dont like what i say, fuck off, i dont make you read what i write.

You claim to be a fighter of the people and so concerned with your ideology, but I only see a whinny coward. Instead of giving us brute facts you gave us rhetoric. Instead of being strait-forward you tip-toed around the issue. Instead of being a leader you act like the rebel leader's bitch. If you are going to be a revolutionary then be a fucking revolutionary, that's all I ask.

I am being as straightforward as i can, tho i dare not to give you all my full theory, because then i would be denounced as lunatic or ignored because nearly everyone on NG could not get their heads round it, they have been too absorbed by the system. Any that understand my full view will see it in the other things i write.

At 4/5/05 07:17 PM, Nonesuch wrote:

At 3/31/05 12:36 PM, SpamWarrior wrote: I have studied psychology as a patient and as a student.. I know it can be beneficial, and make people feel better. But when people are depressed because the world is a shitty place, why do people get given drugs that make them happy, when they should feel depressed, because thats how they truly feel.

Well, if it impairs their functioning in this society--most importantly, if it's to the point where they want to harm themselves or others--then they really ought to to be helped. Maybe not with medications, but if someone's at risk of going bananas and shooting folks, there should be steps taken to help that person cope better.

I agree with the concept of no needless violence, but i see the need for necessary violence. Necesarry violence mostly doesnt exist now. It is disguised as warfare, when really the system is hinting of its massive killing power against anyone who opposes it. there should be no violent actions allowed until the whole of the people are ready, and there should be none after the revolution.

At 4/1/05 09:22 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: Depressed people, often have reason to be depressed. A very very good reason is that the world is a shithole, where people die and are exploited for other peoples greed. Yet people who seem to notice these things get branded as weirdo's, or maybe emo these days. Either way, they become ignored by wider society.

So, wait...you're telling me that the majority of folks who are currently depressed are depressed because there's famine and disease and exploitation?

Uh...I'm sorry, I thought most people who are severely depressed have chemical imbalances, or have had severe trauma in their own lives (personal trauma, such as childhood abuse, not "ZOMG I just realized children are starving in Africa!!"). I know from personal experience that the worse I feel about life, the more I'm concerned ONLY with my own problems. Y'know, the stuff that's making me miserable. Like, lack

Again, a division caused and/or manipulated by the system. Make people think of just themselves and those nearest to them. The human race is more than a village, town, city or even country. The human race is the WORLD. It is then subdivided against its own benefit and nature. This is done by prejudice. The most pervading prejudice is against the communist/socialist view. I mean, even the language is manipulated. "Right" means both that traditional values and the belief that they are right. The left has no such word in its favour, for when the indoctrination starts at youth, from birth....

of friends, or unworthiness of relationships, or memories of abuse, or other stuff like that. The worse I feel, the less I think about the AIDS epidemic or "Blood For Oil." The people who go around saying "This sucks because of all this societal crap" aren't going to be medicated or hospitalized. However, the ones who say "Life sucks because I suck and there's nothing anyone can do about it and it will never get better" could probably use a helping hand.

Yes, try an outright denial of my argument. Not even consideration that some of these people will be medicated, because of society's values, just a flat, boring denial. You carry on living in your bubble, fine. The people who are insular to the pain of man will not be entitled to fair treatment when the revolution happens.

Even if you do not consider the evil values of society, the machine can still destroy you.

At 4/1/05 09:35 AM, SpamWarrior wrote:

At 3/31/05 06:48 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: Is this a religious arguement? I think its far more likely that there is nothign there, than every single person who has a diliusion is seeing an angel or a demon. Like I said before, to be a mental illness you must be caused stress by the incident. If you are fine with having these figures and it doesnt cause you problems then its not a mental illness.

BULLSHIT. You tell me that someone who's happy going on a murdering/raping rampage is ok, because they're happy with it, and its not a mental illness?

I'd risk saying that YES, that IS impeding their functioning in society. He wasn't saying "if you're unhappy with your mental illness, it's bad" but "if it gets in the way of the happily-oiled machinery of Society, it's bad."

At 4/4/05 11:07 PM, commanderkai wrote:

At 4/4/05 09:34 PM, SpamWarrior wrote:

Whine whine whine, I heard it all before. There are two types of communism, Paper Communism which predicts a utopia where everyone is happy and healthy and the "real world" communism where it adjusts to real life conditions. Guess what? The capitalism you see isn't pure capitalism. No countries that I know of (except possibly for what Hammiburi(spl?) said about France) are pure democratic.

Even more proof of the working classes acceptance of the riches rule. You were respectable until you sounded like a dog.

And you said you would pwned me? Bah....you get what you deserve

heh, called a whiner, i'm going to go cry to my mum.

Real communism has not yet happened after the rise of capitalism.

Pure communism can't happen unless we turned into mindless zombies.

Pure capitalism is turning people into zombies, many are already. Communism to work requires people of benevolent nature, with implies working for the greater good, therefore indicating a greater intelligence. So shush trying to own me in single sentences, it will not happen.

Anything else was a facade.

You don't understand do you? All the "facade" communist countries out there were adjusting to the real world. Communism looks great on paper, a beautiful, perfect society which everyone is equal. But guess what? We're not and will never be perfect, we have our low lifes, we have our murderers and our thieves. Unless we are all the same and can make us identical, communism can't work. Capitalism focuses on the individual where you can aspire to be what you want to be, there would be hardships and brick walls, but you can make it.

Capitalism is what has divided people and made them greatly isolated and different. You dont seem to get it, that it suits capitalist theory perfectly to have its traditional enemy, allowed to exist in shame. Just like a prisoner.

II may be wrong, but if they were socialists supporting extreme right wing views, wouldnt that make them right wing, regardless of title. A dog shit is still a dog shit, even if you call it the finest flower.

Or that fascism is left wing, even though you might think all Nazis are right wingers.

Hmmm, nationalism seems to go with xenophobia and racism, which can never be seen as left wing values.

Then why hasnt it happened already?

The UN hasn't got off it's ass.

Its not in its interests. Its another tool of the ruling class, for sure. Military firepower and propaganda keep people in line, amongst other things.

Maybe you don't realize this, but you might be helping their cause, you spewing all this anti-capitalist crap might be sending possible communists back to good old capitalists. Maybe you are a bigger tool then you think.

Really? So me spreading the message directly harms the cause? I dont see what you mean by sending them back. I only speak of what i see is the truth, they dont like it, i'm not going to chase after them. They will simply ensure that humanity becomes nothing more than unknowing parts of a giant whole, where the richest have a life of luxury, and the labourers barely survive.

Anyway, how is all this communist propaganda you are spewing any different from the capitalist propaganda you say "keep the people in line"?

You don't understand, it's not money or my or the West's fault that they spent the money they got from us when we were trading with them on guns to settle ancient feuds and start new ones.

Possible, but since we took slaves,

Warring factions sold us slaves, we never took them (not usually anyway)

robbed them of land before many of them understood what was going on, and carried on. There was much taken, so we cant say we're better than them.

Everybody has been back stabbed, robbed, betrayed, killed etc etc since the beginning of time. We can't control human nature, just as much as we can't control nature itself. We are violent, if we didn't show up, they would be killing off each other with spears and swords. What difference does it make if we brought them guns?

Guns are an easy end and start to any problem. Its a bit difficult for one murderer to take out an entire village armed with a sword. We claimed we taught them civilisation. All we taught anyone, including ourselves is that to be the best you gotta be better at killing people and owning them. These values have mostly gone today in our society, as far as i can see, yet new ones will exist to benefit the rich in some way or another.

It'll take some time, but if we start now we can help them heal their country. Poverty and poor living conditions, combined with the power of the collective can make people do crazy shit.

The collective won't do much since human nature also makes us greedy. Not just greedy for money either, for power, for land etc. If we gave one person the power to manage the collective, he/she might take the oppertunity to use it for his advantage. Just like many other great dictators before him/her. Ideas are great, but they are just ideas. Just because I wrote or thought up something doesn't mean it will end up as I thought it would.

Greed is not innate to human beings. Not to the degree of deliberately, or apathetically killing someone who caused you no harm, and has no wish to. Maybe to some murderious individuals, but for those, see my idea on making them live together on an island.

Really, cos you seem to give the impression you think they're all gun toting lunatics, who resemble the puppet leaders the system allows to rule.

Some of them are, and they scare me since they are in power, but if we put more effort to "cleanse" these radical elements from the Africa's leaders or solve the feuds through diplomacy (Ha! Like that will happen) they will never end up powerful.

Hmmm, powerful how? Many have the will to survive harsh conditions us here pampered in the west could never tolerate. I'd say thats a good basis for power. WIllpower.

Well done, you put up some interesting arguments. This is better than i expected of newgrounds. Looks like the thick 13 year olds cant keep up. Maybe the smart ones can though.

At 4/5/05 03:01 AM, MasterChief7 wrote: If america is one of the biggest custumers, why stop? u sell and gradually rasie the prices. thts what there doing now. if bush had a war for oil, we would of got it and been gone by now. thats why i dont see why people are saying this is a war for oil.

Could they really be that obvious? Just dash in, rob the oil and leave?
No, because if it was possible it would be conspicuous.

Its not possible to drain all the oil that quickly, or set up a puppet government that'll be giving the usa good prices for services rendered.

Its not about oil tho in essence, this is just propaganda from part of the war on capitalist greed. Sure there will be psychos who want to just cause death and destruction for the hell of it, but there will be good people fighting the system, and slowly getting crushed. We in our naivety take it that they are trying to destroy us all, when the system is responsible. Sure, theres going to be people who do, but only the system can allow them to exist. The system is responsible for all major events in society.

At 4/4/05 10:51 PM, jmaster306 wrote:

At 4/4/05 08:56 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: Yes, it is possible, and therefore likely in societies where competition and survival of the richest are the goal.

Conspiracy theories aside, I doubt that is the case. Generally speaking, the people being treated are legitimately in need of it. I cannot say defintively that this is the case since I'm relatively uninformed of the state of clinical psychology in the U.K. but I can guarantee it isn't the case over here in the states. After all, we are a country of bitching about everything we see wrong in the world and this would be no different. What you are saying, if true, would be absolutely infuriating to the general public. What I'm saying is I find it hard to believe that everything you are claiming is actually as bad as you say. If nothing else, the problems you have with the system are fixable flaws and don't require clinical psychology to be completely abolished.

I believe it should be crushed as a tool of the capitalist system, and rebuilt afterwards. You are deceived by the capitalist machine. The most we ever hear of human suffering is when a new disaster occurs. Funny how a few hundred or thousand die in some horrible incident and it hits the news, yet there seems to be a lack of "people still dying of poverty and famine in Africa". Maybe people would work it out, that no fucker cares? All everyone seems to care about is looking after number one, fuck your fellow man.

You even admited yourself that...

At 4/4/05 09:17 PM, SpamWarrior wrote: Psychology isnt the origin of the problems. Greed is.

If so, then why not get remove the Greed from the system instead of tearing the system down. If we threw a complete revolution everytime something went wrong, we would have never progressed as far as a species as we have.

This is far? A world divided into smaller and smaller segments, people work to ignore the fear of terrorism, and if they break they turn to psychology, or die. Its a huge system running everything, the only problem is that they are clever enough to hide the money trail, who ever it is in charge. You ever hear of Bilderberg and the Omega group?
If you havent, google it. Some of the members of bilderberg, who happen to be LEADERS OF BUSINESS and GOVERNMENTAL OFFICIALS have admitted that prices are, "arranged", thought they claim its for the good of the world economy, i doubt it very much.

Although to be perfectly honest, the more I read of what you are saying... the more I realize it has absolutely nothing to do with Clinical Psychology. After all, this quote spells out a different 'problem' entirely.

Clinical Psychology is a tool of the state. Therefore like the murderous rich, who exploit like its natural, should all be crushed by the people.

At 4/4/05 09:07 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: Those that get angry with the country they live in for its unfairness are called disloyal and patriotic, or mental..... = goth/mosher. People are divided and controlled, only by mass revolution will the undeserving rich be over thrown.

So your true colors have been exposed. You don't really see a problem with Clinical Psychology, you are a whinny revolutionary that fears government suppression. You maskaraded around in your great concern for your fellow man when all you care about is protecting your ideology which, I might point out, isn't even in danger. Personally I hate it when people cowardly hide their real message under midless fluff in an attempt to gain support. If it turns out I am wrong, then by all means correct me. I would perfer to continue debating with someone of actual intelligence vs some blowhard, rebel without a clue.

My ideology has no standing, because it is no danger to the machine when people act as individuals. Therefore my ideology has no danger to itself. It'd be much more dangerous for the system to try to have tried to suppress the idea before now, but it is slowly happening. It is being written into the hearts and minds of young people everywhere to think Fuck this, why should i care. The only people with the will and power to change the world are being destroyed, made into mindless robots.

To be fair, i couldnt give a shit whether you credit me with intelligence. I credit you with none for trying to smear me by saying i dont care for my fellow man, because i care for my ideology. Even though they are obviously the same thing as far as i am concerned. You Boob. I can see the possible benefits of capitalism trickling down to the people, but with appropriate socialist measures i can see that riches and benefits rushing down to the people, instead of being given as mere concessions to prevent revolution, now and again

My fellow man, is dying, in Africa from poverty. My fellow man is being made stupid by the capitalist system. My fellow man can not try to cause revolution and over throw of the needless, greedy rich without being branded as terrorists. And before the patriots start, i dont think terrorists killing is right. I do not condone death as being good thing. I dont think its right that the rich ARE the government, the government are the rich, and they cause deaths of thousands a week just from poverty, i dont think its right.

At 4/4/05 10:40 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: People turn for help because they are self-loathing. I have a friend who has agrophobia. when we were younger he was even mro eoutgoing than me, now he cant work, cant go to the movies, has hard enough time leaving his basement because of his condition. Is he seekign help because he is self-loathing? Am I seeking help becasue I am self-loathing when I had difficulties controlling myself and was prone to sub-concious fits because of bipolar. Sure you may say I just wasnt able to control myself, but trying living a week in my shoes before I was treated for bipolar. Its not because we hate who we are, its cause we want to be the ebst we can be and are tired of having to be scared to go outside, tired of having fits, tired of hearing voices. Some people need help, whether it be drugs or therapy to get over these things.

You're trying to tar my reputation based on sheer assumption. I have always stated that some people do need help, but the possibilities for a powerful source to manipulate it is wrong.

At 4/4/05 09:26 PM, NarcolepticAlarmClok wrote: Erm... not to be a pain in the bootocks, but may I bring up the point of rour inevitable death by temperature rise??

Just attach a turbine, and generate electricity.

Oh jeez, just because he doesn't believe in your communist bull shit doesn't mean he is a fascist. You want to know something? Communism won in Russia, Eastern Europe and China, 100 million people died.

"Communism" in these countries was a facade, a fakery perpetrated by someone. Either to acieve their own power or to discredit communism. The latter is what has been achieved regardless.

Whine whine whine, I heard it all before. There are two types of communism, Paper Communism which predicts a utopia where everyone is happy and healthy and the "real world" communism where it adjusts to real life conditions. Guess what? The capitalism you see isn't pure capitalism. No countries that I know of (except possibly for what Hammiburi(spl?) said about France) are pure democratic.

Even more proof of the working classes acceptance of the riches rule. You were respectable until you sounded like a dog. Real communism has not yet happened after the rise of capitalism. Anything else was a facade.

WORLD WAR TWO is more than enough to satisfy the right wing murdering people in recent times.

Listen, guess who supported Hitler? SOCIALISTS!!!

I see, and when did they find out he was insane? Or perhaps you are actually just trying a flagrant lie to destroy my argument. Source please. Whereas, fascism is known as right wing.

Many issues that Hitler supported are also supported by socialists, look it up since I'm too lazy to do it myself, plus this also goes with my arguement that Hitler and other nazis most likely twisted what fascism meant to put in what their beliefs are. Like the Master race bullshit he came up with

Anyway definitions of Nazism and fascism

nazism

n : a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism [syn: Nazism, Naziism, national socialism]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

fas·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.
often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

The party was called the NATIONALIST socialist party. It'd be like saying all Muslims are oppressive terrorists. Its an over generalisation and an untruth.

Wait wait, I thought you said that there wasn't any socialists supporting him. How can you prove that it is false that no socialists supported Hitler?

II may be wrong, but if they were socialists supporting extreme right wing views, wouldnt that make them right wing, regardless of title. A dog shit is still a dog shit, even if you call it the finest flower.

As for say, america? SLAVERY

No different then collectism (spl?) except you have to pay for the labour.

Yes. Exactly. In collectivism people are PAID for the labour. Their wage is not that they are merely allowed to live.

Uhh...not what I meant, I meant that you had to pay for the slaves while the people "benefited" from collctivism by getting it from the Government

Hmmm, i meant a collective, as in commune, or kibbutz, on a large scale. Hmmmmm

And we can help them though the technologies created by capitalists. If we wanted to, we can create massive irragation networks all across Africa to support crops just like what Israel did. We can then give them tools to make harvesting more efficient which are made by corporations.

Then why hasnt it happened already?

The UN hasn't got off it's ass.

Its not in its interests. Its another tool of the ruling class, for sure. Military firepower and propaganda keep people in line, amongst other things.

Ha, Rape and pillage my ass. If the leaders of the countries use the money they make off of us for civic buildings and food instead of better weapons to kill each other with, they might already be equals.

You dont like the real world do you? Its what happened. Proof is in your own history books, as much as they can be trusted....

You don't understand, it's not money or my or the West's fault that they spent the money they got from us when we were trading with them on guns to settle ancient feuds and start new ones.

Possible, but since we took slaves, robbed them of land before many of them understood what was going on, and carried on. There was much taken, so we cant say we're better than them. They only got guns after we arrived. How much has loss of life increased and instability also, where guns have been introduced. It'll take some time, but if we start now we can help them heal their country. Poverty and poor living conditions, combined with the power of the collective can make people do crazy shit.

Really, cos you seem to give the impression you think they're all gun toting lunatics, who resemble the puppet leaders the system allows to rule.

Some of them are, and they scare me since they are in power, but if we put more effort to "cleanse" these radical elements from the Africa's leaders or solve the feuds through diplomacy (Ha! Like that will happen) they will never end up powerful.

Hmmm, powerful how? Many have the will to survive harsh conditions us here pampered in the west could never tolerate. I'd say thats a good basis for power. WIllpower.

At 4/4/05 04:42 PM, commanderkai wrote:

At 4/4/05 01:35 PM, SpamWarrior wrote:

You are asking for a "revolution of minds" by society's lower class, which a good number of them are there because of their lack of education. You see a problem with this?

Yes. Nice set up by the ruling classes.

I think you missed my point, you were speaking about a "peaceful revolution" or a "revolution of minds" yet many poor people are lacking education, how can they have a "revolution of minds"?

If I knew, as a Marxist it is my duty to not spread it overtly.

Anyway, where would we be today without greed? Christopher Columbus (spl?) discovered the New World because somebody wanted to find a cheaper way to trade with China. Computers would still be the size of entire rooms if somebody didn't try to find a way to make money off of it by making them smaller and more powerful etc

Merest speculation. What if they were made smaller because people in society could see the benefit of everyone having one, and therefore it needs to be smaller, simply due to space?

But since society is using almost all of it's resources just to feed and clothe everyone, who would take the effort to try and make them smaller even though there is no benefit to him?

Its not though. Compare the figures on how much of the worlds resources the rich west gets, and gets money for, compared to how many people starve. Notice anything?

Why is power such a priority? Why is owning other people a goal in life? GREED!

But it works both ways here, you think the lower classes will start a revolution, why would they do this? For more wealth and power. Thus greed.

They would be fighting for what is rightfully theirs.

Why do you have the right to say it is "rightfully theirs"? If they put the time and effort to be better off by creating new and better products, what right does everyone else have, which didn't help in this one man/woman's idea, to take what this person made?

Imagine a place with no labourers, a factory without. Do you see it running smoothly? And its cheaper to 'hire' labour overseas than to robotise in many cases, at least for keeping up appearances anyway. These are the people in slave labour, or the people who give us their produce at a pittance.

At 4/4/05 01:33 PM, night_watch_man18 wrote: I have to agree with both Rugby (justiceofsarcasm) and Jmaster. Being a psychology student, I have to say that the practice is needed. I think you are transfering blame too much. From what I have read, you dislike:

A) Society because it is a shithole... I agree
and
B) Psychiatry because it is doping up people instead of dealing with the issues, something I also slightly agree with.

I'll expand:
A) Yes, we have problems. Yes, a lot of our ailes are due to how we are living our lives in the Western World. The problem is, that there haven't been too many strides taken into changing how our society is being run. This is not a problem caused by Psychology.

Psychology isnt the origin of the problems. Greed is.

This is either the problem of the government or society itself. Psychologists are here to help people deal with their lives. Also, as has been mentioned previously, not all people getting treated are being forced to treatment and for those who are, they are a danger to either themselves or society, and so need treatment. A good example is the Psychopath. They are not conditioned to be killers, in some cases, rather, are biologically inclined to kill. Therapy cannot help these people, and so we have to turn to Psychiatry to help them. So...

An idea i find intruiging, is how about we just separate the people who have different values. The better the value, the more land they get. Killers get to live on a small island with each other, the benevolent live together in huge peaceful places. People separated by their own core values. It'd be interesting i think anyway....

B) Sometimes Psychiatry is a last resort. Personally, I agree with you, we as a society turn to pills in order to cure our conditions, when there are alternatives. However, as I have mentioned, there are those cases where therapy cannot help the individual, and so they need to go on medication. If we didn't do this, they would either go around hurting themself or others, and as a society, I think we wish to prevent this.

Random needless violence, or simple street mugging type crime should never be tolerated, but it should be noted that criminals seek the same ends as many of the rich, but are slightly more enterprising about what they can do at the bottom of the pool.

So, I understand your frustration with the abuses that occurr, however, I do not think we should disband the whole profession. I have learned a lot from Psychology, and it has helped me not only help myself, but more importantly, help me to understand how people work, and to help those people. A lot of us are fearful of the prophesy that we will be placed under medication to drug us as in the book "Brave New World"... actually, I have made a post somewhere in the past discussing this very issue, and expressed my own frustrations with Psychiatry and it's abuses.... I think I called it "Pill-popping nation". Anyways, despite my disdain for psychiatry, I acknowledge it's needs.

Again, I agree, but i think the emphasis should be on helping wider society rather than the individual. Ie, clinical psychology should be put on the backburner whilst greater social change occurs.

Hah, just don't blame Psychology. As Rugby pointed out, most people who use Psychology are doing so willingly and of their own accord.

True, but they are motivated by self-loathing, caused by their view conflicting with the apparent, tho perhaps not true response to the outside world. To the depressed, its harsh that other people dont seem to care about the world as much as you do, and just get on with their lives. Both have valid viewpoints, but only one type is desired.

Oh, and don't think we are here to get rid of those who are 'visionaries'. Heard of John Edwards, the man who claims to have the ability to talk to the dead? Well, I'd say he's doing quite well for himself. He has his own television programs, and sells books. The same is said for others like him. I would say that we aren't rushing to lock people like him up, rather, we're embracing the idea that humans are more than what they seem. Do I believe the man? No, not personally. However, I don't dismiss the idea that he could be right.

Who knows, i'd be skeptical also, and yet believe it could possibly be true.

...sorry for the long post...

\Ah its fine, its great to see someone who's not a closed minded redneck on here. They just increase the negative stereotypin of america more :S

I probably already replied, but this time you will be owned.

At 2/14/05 07:30 PM, commanderkai wrote:

At 2/14/05 06:48 PM, SpamWarrior wrote:

Can you even conceive of a revolution of minds? Of people actually talking and learning that greed is bad for everyone? nah, you're evil.

You are asking for a "revolution of minds" by society's lower class, which a good number of them are there because of their lack of education. You see a problem with this?

Yes. Nice set up by the ruling classes.

Anyway, where would we be today without greed? Christopher Columbus (spl?) discovered the New World because somebody wanted to find a cheaper way to trade with China. Computers would still be the size of entire rooms if somebody didn't try to find a way to make money off of it by making them smaller and more powerful etc

Merest speculation. What if they were made smaller because people in society could see the benefit of everyone having one, and therefore it needs to be smaller, simply due to space?

Why is power such a priority? Why is owning other people a goal in life? GREED!

But it works both ways here, you think the lower classes will start a revolution, why would they do this? For more wealth and power. Thus greed.

They would be fighting for what is rightfully theirs.

I know i'm young and ignorant, yet i've heard of millions more deaths at the hands of what you call the winners than the losers. For example, Fascism 'won' in germany, just for a few years, and millions died. I appreciate that that is an extreme example, tho i dont know if you're a fascist or not....

Oh jeez, just because he doesn't believe in your communist bull shit doesn't mean he is a fascist. You want to know something? Communism won in Russia, Eastern Europe and China, 100 million people died.

"Communism" in these countries was a facade, a fakery perpetrated by someone. Either to acieve their own power or to discredit communism. The latter is what has been achieved regardless.

WORLD WAR TWO is more than enough to satisfy the right wing murdering people in recent times.

Listen, guess who supported Hitler? SOCIALISTS!!!

I see, and when did they find out he was insane? Or perhaps you are actually just trying a flagrant lie to destroy my argument. Source please. Whereas, fascism is known as right wing. The party was called the NATIONALIST socialist party. It'd be like saying all Muslims are oppressive terrorists. Its an over generalisation and an untruth.

As for say, america? SLAVERY

No different then collectism (spl?) except you have to pay for the labour.

Yes. Exactly. In collectivism people are PAID for the labour. Their wage is not that they are merely allowed to live.

Whilst i have no proof other than the crimean and boer war that the RIGHT WING GOVERNMENT murdered at least a few thousand native tribespeople of various countries, i'm pretty sure it happened.

Wait a sec here, YOU HAVE NO PROOF, I can say the China went around killing off intellectuals and students.......wait a minute.....this ACTUALLY happened

Hmmm, i see you dont see sarcasm. Anyway, China again, was not communist. True communism cant work when the country has to find a way to trade material goods with the outside world.

But the world is full of sheep....

Too bad you lost your flock

Yes

Now, compare the amount of food in america that goes to waste compared to how much poor african peoples would need to help them survive.

And we can help them though the technologies created by capitalists. If we wanted to, we can create massive irragation networks all across Africa to support crops just like what Israel did. We can then give them tools to make harvesting more efficient which are made by corporations.

Then why hasnt it happened already?

If the west didnt RAPE AND PILLAGE their resoureces which the west like, such as oil, and gems, then they would be able to be in this world as equals.

Ha, Rape and pillage my ass. If the leaders of the countries use the money they make off of us for civic buildings and food instead of better weapons to kill each other with, they might already be equals.

You dont like the real world do you? Its what happened. Proof is in your own history books, as much as they can be trusted....

I bet that thought scares you. Africans being equals as a world power.

Why the hell would that scare me? Hell, once that happens, screw Foreign aid! If they can, let them, I wouldn't mind buying a shirt from Rwanda and visiting the Ivory Coast for a vacation in a plane made in a Boeing plant in Kenya.

Really, cos you seem to give the impression you think they're all gun toting lunatics, who resemble the puppet leaders the system allows to rule.

At 4/4/05 01:30 AM, Chipmunkwarrior wrote: I thought the Gulf War happened because Iraq invaded Kuwait and refused to leave. Then America came to the rescue and handily made the Iraqi army flee.

You know what it really is? Because you are the largest nuclear armed country in the world, you are used as the "heavy" by the "mob" that rules the world. This is nothing more than a giant scale protection racket. Why do you think Britains your best arse-licking friend?

The best reason to seize hold of any resource isnt because you want it, but to stop competition/people you dont like from having it. Thats something learned in the playground top politicians never forget.

At 2/14/05 11:32 PM, Damien_FLAGG wrote:

At 2/14/05 10:54 PM, SpamWarrior wrote:

At 2/14/05 10:28 PM, Damien_FLAGG wrote:

The point i'm really trying to make, is that the people who do the work are far more important than the people in government who take their money off them and give it to the rich.

No, the blue collar is no more important than any other profession. This country needs everyone, equally. The construction worker, the data imputer, and the politician are equally important. There needs to be a sect of society which governs the other sects. Otherwise, it wouldn't be orderly, or efficient, at all.

Someone who has the natural skills to be able to learn to build a house, which is a skill, has more value than someone who can push paper round a desk. Same goes for those who have determination to do all the primary industrys. Without these people who do the manual labour, none of these other parts could exist. Blue collar and below are the foundations of the capitalist system.

I am a dosser, and willing to admit to it. I dont do manual labour, though of course i respect its importance. I have many friends in the building trades, tho they are starting at the bottom.

Most people start at the bottom, whether you're an office worker, or an electrician. Most people don't just start out in a high paying, enjoyable job. Even the politician goes to law school, and serves in several public official positions.

Indeed. But different tiers have different bottoms. How many politicians and lawyers get into office that come from the poverty stricken areas? A token couple maybe, just another concession to the working class.

I think teachers are getting paid what they deserve.

Maybe in America. Never over here. Either that or we need more happy teachers :)

How much (approx.) does a teacher in your country make, anually?

Not as much as somone who sits on their fat arse and does nothing, who has it made.

Sure, I could see you having that opinion. But that doesn't mean the system is 'designed' to keep the middle class man down. That's a huge leap of conclusions.

Thats just it, its not about keeping the middle class down, its about keeping them placid. Who is really oppressed, are the working class. I dont mean insult to your firm, well actually, sorry ido. You're firm as you've said operates for profit. Whilst i'm only assuming that good workers arent made partners, you can see why i think that good workers dont get given a share.

When it comes to blue-collar, you literally reap what you sow. The harder I'm willing to work, and the more hours I put in, the more money I make. Period. It's totally up to me, when it comes to how much money I make, and how hard i'm willing to work. THAT'S my share. It's not guaranteed, no...and it shouldn't be. But that oppurtunity is there.

Yet a construction company couldnt survive without its lowest workers, it could survive without top management to a degree. Yet its the top management who take the biggest cut.

They get told they are lucky to have a job, and if they dont like it tough, someone else'll have the job.

And that's completely true. That's why a company, in the blue collar business, must be exceptional. That means the lowest bids, and the highest quality work. As I've said, I get paid based on job performance.

So it benefits the consumer, you think? Who's the consumer? The middle class, the poor dont pay for shit. So this is a connection to keeping the middle class placid....

Our company, Superior Interiors, has a Satisfaction of Quality guarantee. Our policy is that after we finish a job, if a contractor is not happy with it, we'll come back, as many days as we have to, to finish the job...all for free.
And, seeing as how that situation would deal a financial blow from hell to our business, we NEVER, once, had to act on that guarantee.
In the world of expendable jobs, one must be exceptionally good at a given trade. This is how money is made. It's not equal oppurtunity. If you can't cut it, there is no training program. There are very few second chances. A mistake on a job site costs someone money. A lack of safety costs someone OSHA fines.

Fine, if you have no skill whatsoever, dont do that job, i can agree with that view. I disagree with people being prevented from reaching their potentials by a bunch of scheming rich people. Any way that society can be divided from itself, it will. White middle class parents dont understand and often dont like hip hop culture, many of those dont like people with punk attitudes, those punks dont like anyone. Divide and conquer, funny phrase, funny how no one notices the social divides created by image and style.

So people are being underpaid by capitalism. I dont doubt that if you were taxed less, and were stopped from lining corruptions pockets, then sure, your workers would be paid even more. Or perhaps your firm'd take the extra profit?

The main components of this company would take that extra profit, yes. My immediate family is who runs it...everyone else that comes and goes are expendable employees. We run the company, we reap the most benefits. But, I suppose you'd call that greed.

Whilst there is good money in construction, its not often known for being expoitative, unless you go back a hundred or two hundred years ago, and more. But yes recently, its been ok. Apart from the irish and the italians getting exploited in America as little as a hundred years ago.

People learn these values on the basis that this is the way that its always been. Not so, theres tribes in the amazon perfectly happy with the world until they saw our inventions. So now they learn to crave material goods, which they had no interest in before.

And that makes material goods 'wrong'?

It means that the desire for material goods, is not innate, and not necessary to live in a peaceful world. I believe material goods are used to insulate those that can afford them from the real world, and break the spirits of those that make them everyday, yet live on a pittance, if they live at all..

At 4/4/05 02:23 AM, Thelonius wrote:

At 4/4/05 02:09 AM, MadKid wrote: so i'm the only god damn person in newgrounds that belives this, fine whatever be a socity run by your lust for money, i hope that these words from a minor, who has no need for money yet, has opened some eyes, and hopefully some important people that go on this site

The lure of wealth is what this entire country is founded upon. Ever heard of the land of opportunity?

The country is founded upon stolen resources and labour. Kidnapped is an appropriate word. Raped and enslaved is an even better description, but most people seem to like to ignore that.... The arrogance, i must assume that you're american. No offence USA, but you seem to agree with and listen to government regulation more than the british.
America IS founded on exploitation, no two ways about it. The hard part to accept is that it still goes on today, but it is covert. Is there no one else that sees it as being slightly wrong that dick cheney worked for halliburtons, and they get the biggest share in Iraq? It seems like paying back a favour to me.... Or paying tribute to the biggest pirates of all....

How can it logically be said, that the best way to control the worlds finite resources, is to put them onto a market, based on individual ownership? This means that the rich have yet more ways of seizing control, and turning half-there money into solid assets. Therefore we'll have to metaphorically lick rich when the oil runs out, whilst the poor, who are poor through no fault of their own will be crying in disbelief.

At 4/4/05 02:17 AM, cheshirepus wrote:

At 4/4/05 02:06 AM, MadKid wrote: forget it i just read the rules AGAIN and i can't post my avatar even if it's a sig pic because it's too big thank you i guess

Seems like you might need to browse over them rules again regarding something to do with the caps lock.
Regarding your rant though, there's no doubt that the world is screwed up because of people's greed and that the U.S. is controlled by money. That's pretty much the way great civilizations work... just so long as the people don't get too complacent and/or apathetic about their governement, things usually seem to balance themselves out... in a Democracy (or something close to it) at least. It's sort of like the sun; It's constanly in a state of somewhere between imploding from its gravity and exploding from its energy. If one force gives way, the whole things goes to hell.
Likewise, I think the world needs greedy bastards to make all the money as much as it needs the bleeding hearts to spread it around. Think about it though... The U.S. wouldn't have the potential to save the world (monetarily) to begin with if it hadn't fucked over a bunch of people to get that way in the first place.

Money is nothing. Money is everything. Money is nothing more than a collection of relative values. As its purest form, money can do no harm. Except the problem is, money = power. And also, money = more money. And the more money you have, the more true it gets, until you dont need mere money, you own peoples land, and therefore, by proxy, their lives. Money is part of the greed and power, a tool that sets the working class the same standards as the rich, and then fails them when they dont meet up, making them feel worthless. Yet money blinds those who could see, or could care, cos they'll just get some counselling, out of their own money in cases. Or people see through the system, adopt different methods and more brutal means of getting the same values of material goods. These people will likely be criminal, they will likely like to take in chemicals the official, 'normal' part of the system abhors. Money most obviously blinds the HUGE amount of the 'middle class, lowest of the rich" because they have enough to get some comfort and escape from living in an income rung below, but see things the rich have, want more, and so follow their values. Even if these values means looking after yourself, fuck everyone else who's not in the family or friends. By this i mean, the person who made your shoes most likely got exploited, your clothes etcetera, but you wont notice, you'll just look and smile, and think "nice shoes" Money is not the root of these evils, but its a harsh tool.

Greed is the cause, ruthless greed, with no gratitude or respect for the people who do the hard work.

Can no one else argue with my views? Or do you accept that i am correct? If so, its easier than i thought. And no, this isnt spam. I'm trying to lengthen the thread, bring it back so more people can be aware of whats going on in the world.

At 4/3/05 05:14 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote:

At 4/3/05 10:26 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: I do agree with the majority of this, tho because i have Marxist beliefs, people believe me to be monster, and seem to ignore it. People do need help, but drugs can and do make people into mindless drones. Either legal or illegal, tho with illegal its as much mindset as anything else. Prescribed drugs are dangerous, in large doses they can kill. Indeed, maybe someone who's brain chemistry is beyond haywire may need them, but to give drugs for realistic thought processes is ridiculous, and trying to force someone to match a false standard.

I am on medicatio, I am certainly not a mindless drone. If you agree with the fact that clinical psychology benifits many people, why would you want to abolish it? Yes medication can kill if you take too much, but then again if you eat too many bananas you could die (too much potasium). This is why we need professionals to make sure that this doesn't happen. rarely do people die if they take meds according to doctors orders. There are many things that could kill us, you could die from taking cancer drugs, pain killers, any kind of medication. Lets ban all medication. Why would we only ban drugs used to treat psychological illness?

I'm no expert, but the amounts people are allowed to play with someones personality can be quite scary. Yes, as i have always said and continue to say, some people do need help and medication. But the possibility of making a large, unhappy group of people sedated worries me. If they were anything but an unhappy group, and were just say, women, or just men, or just teenagers, just something else except unhappy, people would have more respect for them. But those that cry for the state of the world get called, soft, hippys, or the modern version, = emo fag. Those that get angry with the country they live in for its unfairness are called disloyal and patriotic, or mental..... = goth/mosher. People are divided and controlled, only by mass revolution will the undeserving rich be over thrown.

None of you arguements make sense because you constantly contridict yourself. Please adopted a solid position and stop flip-floping.

I only generalise to make sure i get the rednecks' attention. Did it work? I do have some solid foundations. Its called a balanced argument. I see the need for the severe illest to have help, tho the nature of the help i'm not sure of. But I definitely see a world gone mad, full of its own contradictions and hypocrisy. For example :
"Thou shalt not kill" mean anything to you?
Yet Western "first world" society is responsible for the deaths of untold, unknowing numbers of the african peoples, and others, tho i've yet to research them.
"Thou shalt not steal" these peoples rich lands ARE raped by the West.

The whole of a society you believe in is based on hypocrisy of these two values. You think this is irrelevant? This is more justification for my Marxist opinion of Psychology.

So please, kindly point out where i'm self contradicting and flip flopping.

At 4/3/05 03:33 PM, jmaster306 wrote:

At 4/3/05 10:28 AM, SpamWarrior wrote: Hmmm, lets see, test someone if he's crazy, based on the definition that he's crazy because he doesnt fit to society's standards. Is it just me that sees the possibilities of manipulating people based on this?

So wait, let me get this strait. You believe that people with "threatening" views (aka being socialist or marxist) are being given drugs to brainwash them out of their opinions, correct?

Yes, it is possible, and therefore likely in societies where competition and survival of the richest are the goal.

At 4/2/05 02:54 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote:

At 4/2/05 12:20 PM, Wylo wrote:

At 4/2/05 01:08 AM, Von_Lark wrote: I'm sure you're right. All mental people are really psychic.

I'm guessing you made a typo and meant to say "All mental people are really psycho." Or that's what I wanted to hear.

Its just what you wanted to hear. Maybe you shoudl be tested to see if you are crazy cause you don't conform to societies standards.

I cant seem to follow the post, maybe someones posts has been removed? Maybe i need more coffee. But i'll jump on this and assume its about me, just for a demonstration. Hmmm, lets see, test someone if he's crazy, based on the definition that he's crazy because he doesnt fit to society's standards. Is it just me that sees the possibilities of manipulating people based on this?

At 4/2/05 11:56 PM, Angelofdeath679 wrote: I would classify myself as an authority on phyciratrists. My mom is insane(trust me) I have spent a grand total of three years searching for a decent shrink and two years on meds and going steady to a shrink. Your right most shrinks are asses and should be shot, but the general practice is life saving. Sure for every 1 person with a mental disorder 10 are treated and most of the mood stabalizers make you a mindless drone(I would know) but when you find the 1 in 100 shrink who gives a fuck then he/she can really help you.

I do agree with the majority of this, tho because i have Marxist beliefs, people believe me to be monster, and seem to ignore it. People do need help, but drugs can and do make people into mindless drones. Either legal or illegal, tho with illegal its as much mindset as anything else. Prescribed drugs are dangerous, in large doses they can kill. Indeed, maybe someone who's brain chemistry is beyond haywire may need them, but to give drugs for realistic thought processes is ridiculous, and trying to force someone to match a false standard.

At 4/1/05 12:45 PM, Maus wrote: Okay - Does the topic starter mean psychology or psychiatry? because they aren't interchangeable terms.

As far as i'm aware, in the uk, there is a difference yes. They both counsel, but only the psychiatrists can prescribe drugs. I suppose i'm more opposed to psychiatry, but psychology can have nasty effects. I'm reffering to the clinical aspect as a whole really.
Note again, that I believe some people do need help, but i think that society should be treated as ill, than that people should basically told to STFU and accept it. Yes, there are such things as biological causes of depression, possibly its genetic, its definitely hormonal. But a lot of times, people feel sad for good reason.

Some Marxist theory for you, and some links if you can be bothered.

www.antipsychiatry.org

Yes, there are individuals who do well with exposed mental illness, but those that do well seem to assume its ok for all those, just because they made it....

This page shows well the arguments, that the so called healers of mental illness can and do perpetuate it, perhaps unknowingly, perhaps with perfect awareness of what they are doing...

At 3/31/05 06:48 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote:

At 3/31/05 02:11 PM, SpamWarrior wrote: Yes, lets ignore giant social issues of famine poverty and oppression, and just keep taking happy pills, forgetting that people are dying, even though it could be prevented for at least some time.

Are you saying as a society we are not capable of combatting more than 1 issue at a time. Lets pull all of those AIDS researchers off their work and have them help solve homelessness.

We would have enough money and power to try solve these issues if the rich actually gave a shit about the people, instead of viewing them as mere workhorses.

Well, the person that may not be there, could that be a demon or an angel? Or something else? Do you see the connection of psychology vs freedom of thinking?

Is this a religious arguement? I think its far more likely that there is nothign there, than every single person who has a diliusion is seeing an angel or a demon. Like I said before, to be a mental illness you must be caused stress by the incident. If you are fine with having these figures and it doesnt cause you problems then its not a mental illness.

BULLSHIT. You tell me that someone who's happy going on a murdering/raping rampage is ok, because they're happy with it, and its not a mental illness?

Or maybe psychics arent all frauds? Maybe those who can hear what people think are actually just incredibly good at body language and a form of mental triangulation. Maybe they are psychic.

BUt if they get it from body language and say they can ehar your thoughts then they are a fraud. And phone psychics cant see your body language. When did I ever say psychics have a mental illness or are frauds. Only if it causes a person distress is it a mental illness. Someone isnt listening.

Correct, you are not seeing possible wider implications. A classic schizophrenic 'delusion' is that they can see peoples thoughts, or people can see theirs. What if they are correct, and that is actually the cause of the problem? Theres loads going on we do not know about in this universe, and to assume that the government institutions are trustworthy to look after individuals is foolhardy.

Another way of looking at the argument is "common sense" versus supernaturalism.

That made no sense, which side is it supporting. Its common sense that you cant hear thoughts, its supernaturalism that you can.

This is just it tho, there are people that need help, and there are people that society needs to listen to.

Are you saying Jesus is back? So we need to hear out the guy who says the terrorists are sending messages to sleeper cells via the NY Times, or that the IRS is tapping their phone and hiding in their attic cause they paid $5.37 les son their taxes then they shoudl have 6 years ago. Or the guy who thinks he and Jodie Foster were friends when they were younger and decided when they reached a certain age would get together, then leaves his kid on a Scouting trip drives home, packs a suitcase and tell his wife he is supposed to meet Jodie (it actually happend this story, and he and Jodie Foster never met at all).

Imagine a man, who says he is in constant communication with God, thinks he might be able to heal people just by using his mind and hands, or at least help them. This description could apply to jesus, a priest, or an alternative therapist of another religion. Yet it could also perfectly describe a schizophrenic with a large delusion.

People get depressed because the world is harsh, and unfair, and the people in power have the power to change it all, but not the will....

Clinical depression has no actual reasoning behind it. There is no incedent or sets of events that could have caused or, or as a result of a medical condition or substance use (including perscriptions). There is nothing to explain why the person is depressed. I hate it when people have your attitude, the whole just suck it up, your fine idea.

You're telling me, a so called victim of clinical depression, that i have no actual cause? You dont even know me. Whats wrong my idea, that people are upset, because they can see the world is a shitty place, and arent just locked into their own arrogant worlds, filled with cotton wool? You telling me there is NO ONE in this world, who is upset because it is an unfair world? Evidence to the contrary is HERE.

Anyway, about the family. I'd go on about the capitalist machine but nearly everyone on newgrounds is too immature to accept my ideas right to exist, never mind that i am right. *sigh*

Try me. This isnt General.

True, individual differences and circumstances, so indeed, your condition didnt hold you back. What i'm tryin to put across is the possibilities of the government using psychiatry to manipulate the people. For example, when the Soviet Union was used to discredit communism, people that disagreed got send for re education. What i aim to imply here is that the control of the people in capitalist society at least in the west, is more subtle.

Wait, your telling me the gov't invented mental illness as a excuse to control what people think? How exactly does this work. I mean most of these people seek out treatment on their own, and its not always drugs that are used to help the problem, therapy and counselling is also used alot. How is someone going in for help with a phobia of spiders being subjected to mind control by the capitalist machine? How is the solider suffering from post-truamatic stress being brainwashed by the gov't when he gets therapy to help him get over seeing his best friends die in his arms? How is the person who must wash their hands 64 times and lock the dor 12 times being controlled by "the man" when they get medication to help control their OCD?

Because people are given set social values by the family, education and the media, of what is 'normal' and 'correct'. I mean, they even use the word Right. Which implies tradition is ALWAYS corrrect. When something goes wrong with that, they cave into social values and seek help. As I have ALWAYS said throughout this argument, there are people that genuinely need help. However, the potential for the state to manipulate the people is scary. Add in the FACT that there will be greedy people in the business, who happily make peoples problems worse so they get more money...