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This thread is becoming meaningless as there are too many people arguing about too many topics, some of them totally irrelevant, Some of them with no factual base (yeah, some of the Israelis here too)
The main questions of course is WHO IS TO BLAME IN WHAT HAPPENED ON THE MAVY MARMARA? and HOW COULD IT HAVE BEEN RESOLVED DIFFERENTLY?

But in order to answer those questions there are so many little arguments to be made, that it is impossible to get to a conclusion while speaking with so many people at the same time.

I invite everyone who really want to talk, everyone who really want to hear our side and not just prove us wrong, to mail me at shayelk@gmail.com. I promise I will listen to what you have to say. I'm not just trying to prove you wrong, and maybe I will be proved wrong myself, but I do want a real discussion which is impossible to have here.

whether I'm right or not- I promise there is a lot you don't know about this situation, and I guess there is a lot I don't know. so please come and talk

At 6/1/10 08:34 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

If you say you're going to break into my home, that doesn't give me the right to shoot you on the street five miles away.

Sorry, but that is not the right comparison.
The right comparison would be that:

Let's say that there's a convoy of trucks, claiming that they are on their way to go and break into, let's say, a prison in the USA. The convoy we're talking about would say that they have no weapons or illegal goods, and they just want to give the prisoners 10k tons of strawberry pies.
Now the US government can't have everyone just coming in to their prisons giving stuff away because while the convoy could only have strawberry pies, how would they know that not one single person on the convoy is trying to smuggle a gun into the prison? But USA is a humane country and it doesn't have a problem with prisoners eating strawberry pies so they say "hey, take the convoy to the prison's parking lot, we'll let you watch as we check the pies and then give it to the prisoners".
But the convoy leader says "yeah, that's not going to happen. We'll just go right through the gate and give whoever we want whatever we have. But we're good, I promise"

Do you think the US government would wait until the convoy was past the prison's gate?

Let's say for a second that they don't (and please don't say they would).

So policemen are driving near the convoy asking them to stop. The convoy doesn't stop. So they say "give us the strawberry pies, we will give it to the prisoners". The convoy won't stop. So they say "If you will not stop we will be forced to stop you". The convoy still doesn't stop.
So they build a roadblock and stop the convoy. Not using any weapon, and carrying only paintball guns just in case, they get on the trucks, but then the drivers start stabbing them with knifes, beating them up with metal rods and stuff.

Now if I was one of the truck drivers, I think that gives you the right to shoot me on the street 5 miles away from the prison

At 5/31/10 05:21 PM, sora-key wrote: I swear if Israeli soldiers shot a toddler, everyone would say that the baby was trying to deliver weapons or some lame shit.

I've seen with my own eyes how Hamas sends children with pipes looking like AT weapon and tell them to jump around corners "aiming" on Israeli tanks. The children, of course, don't know what they're doing but the obvious goal here was to make someone make a mistake and shoot at a child, thinking it's a terrorist, in order to make a news item and use for propaganda. And no, we didn't make a mistake.
I've also seen terrorists (with AK47's. or were they going shopping?) hiding behind children.
So you can be as naive as you want, but you have no idea who are we up against.

I've also seen some nice Palestinians in my time. I'm not an idiot thinking "arabs=evil", I know that most of them are just normal people who want to live normal life like you and me, but Hamas uses it's civil population in ways you wouldn't believe.

I really want to know what you think Israel should have done, And what do you think YOUR country would have done if a flotilla like this was about to cross it's borders unauthorized.

At 5/31/10 03:24 PM, Musician wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltC B4

The video clearly shows that Israel fired on the ships (with live rounds) before boarding them. In light of this, any action taken on the boarding commandos can be viewed as legitimate self defense. Furthermore, no weapons were found inside of the flotillas' cargo holds, so allegations that they were delivering weapons and munitions to terrorist factions in Gaza are false.

No it's not. Where did you "clearly" see anything fired at the ships before the boarding? He's talking about a white flag being raised but you can't raise a white flag while attacking soldiers and expect them to just stand there.

The fact that there was no weapons on the ship means nothing- how could the IDF know it in advance if the convoy's personal refused to let it check the cargo?

GronmonSE, Your link is broken. I'd love to get the right one please :)

I really want to know what do you think Israel should have done.
What do you think would have happen to a convoy of ships sailing toward the USA, for example, without the authorization of the US government. If I'd set sail tomorrow toward Turkey with nothing but food on my ship, do you think the Turkish army will just let me dock wherever I want?

The Israeli forces asked the convoy to dock in Ashdod port and transfer the supplies by land after inspection. isn't that a reasonable demand?

After the ship's personal declined this demands, Israeli forces had no choice but to land on the ship and take over it. And while the Israeli soldiers held paintball guns, they where attacked with clubs, metal rods, knifes and even guns. Anyone want to explain what did so many knifes do on a "peaceful" ship?

This was a well-planed provocation, one of many that we see here all the time. I'm not asking anyone to be on my side, just to check the facts before setting sides.

Listen to the Israeli officer who first contacted the ships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59 Sk&feature=related

Watch what happened to the first Israeli soldiers who landed on the ship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJ Wo&feature=player_embedded#!

Israeli Navy Commander Vice Admiral Eliezer Marom Briefs Forces Set to Intercept Gaza Flotilla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yphfyN0dq i8&feature=related

I would really like you to view this clips and think about what I wrote

I'm kindda geting sick and tires of this disscussion.
We say: It was Lebanon's government's job to disarm Hezbollah and stop the attacks against israel, they didn't and now it became our job.
So u say "hey, they couldn't stop it"
Then we say "ok, so we must do it"
And then u all raise and say "no, but u can't bomb stuff etc."

So just ones again: It was Lebanon's governmen that should have stoped Hezbollah with it's army, from inside of Lebanon. that could have be done peacfully without losing so much innocent lifes.
They didn't do it and now we must do it. but because we can't let our army in Lebanon, we must do it from the air. It means there WILL be innocent lifes lost. but it it N-O-T our fucking fault!

for the one who replied to my claim about september 11th events: again, its not the 2 soldiers we're fighting for. That's just what broke us... we lost a lot more then 3000 people for terror. We are getting sick and tired of that... Now it's time to put a stop for it and say "Every man that will hurt israel/israeli citizan/israeli soldier will be punnished, every nation that those attacks will come from it's territory will be punished, because it was it's job to prevent it.

sorry, this is going arround in circles... so i quit this pointless discussion.
nice talking to u guys.

At 7/21/06 04:25 PM, superlunk wrote:

At 7/21/06 03:58 PM, Shayel wrote:

Good. Then you know that hiding in a bomb shelter or a bunker is useless if the enemy has Bunker Busters.

what does that has to do with anything?

Even if the Lebanese people hide in bunkers or bomb shelters, the Israeli bunker busters will kill them. How can Lebanon protect its people when bunkers and bomb shelters are useless?

IDF isn't just going around dropping those things everywhere... we drop it on Hezbollah bunkers!

a. we don't want to risk our soldiers lifes. the southern lebanon is full with anti-tanks charges, mines etc.
b. because as i said a million times or so- people consider ground entrence as too agresive.

I don't consider it aggressive when soldiers have been kidnapped. A special forces team could have rescued the captured soldiers without a full-scale war. That is acceptable.

you're probably the only one

Photographic evidence. Statements by Hezbollah leaders.

Hezbollah will never state that because it will show we're hurting them...
i can show you videos of bomb hiting terrorists but u will say "how can i now it isn't just an innocent man?" then i'll have to show you hours of video showing he was a terrorist... thus for a hell lot of terrorists...
(and no... i can't actually give you those videos... IDF doesn't release it's intelligence videos that easily.

So you have no hard evidence that terrorists are being killed.

not any i can provide you with. but our army does... it's just more comlicated then just showing you a video clip...

they're not stupid! unfortunatly we're the ones to give them that thought.... israel has never bombed schools, hospitals etc. that's why ambulances were used to smmugel explosive charges into israel, that's why Hezbollah thought they can hide weaponry in schools, not putting it in any danger.

This is going around in a circle.
Hezbollah does not have its weapons in schools and hospitals. End.

yeah... it's just like me comming and saying "they do. End."
i can assure u they do... but you won't belive me because i can't show u... this is a pointless argument

At 7/21/06 03:14 PM, superlunk wrote:

At 7/21/06 02:48 PM, Shayel wrote: yes, i have. we throw this things on Hezbollah bunkers.

Good. Then you know that hiding in a bomb shelter or a bunker is useless if the enemy has Bunker Busters.

what does that has to do with anything?

not if it is a part of self defending.. it hurts civilians too but the intension is to hurt Hezbollah and not the civilians.

If the intention is to hurt Hezbollah, then why not send a ground force to eliminate Hezbollah elements where they can fire on Israel?

a. we don't want to risk our soldiers lifes. the southern lebanon is full with anti-tanks charges, mines etc.
b. because as i said a million times or so- people consider ground entrence as too agresive.

what proof do you want me to give you?

Photographic evidence. Statements by Hezbollah leaders.

Hezbollah will never state that because it will show we're hurting them...
i can show you videos of bomb hiting terrorists but u will say "how can i now it isn't just an innocent man?" then i'll have to show you hours of video showing he was a terrorist... thus for a hell lot of terrorists...
(and no... i can't actually give you those videos... IDF doesn't release it's intelligence videos that easily.

yeah well... i accidently deleted your response there. Hezbollah maybe building scholls and stuff but our intelligence show they also hide weaponry in there...

I doubt that. The civilian and military wings of Hezbollah are seperate. Again, Hezbollah would not risk the lives of children and sick people to hide weapons. They are smart enough to know that Israel would bomb those sites anyway.

they're not stupid! unfortunatly we're the ones to give them that thought.... israel has never bombed schools, hospitals etc. that's why ambulances were used to smmugel explosive charges into israel, that's why Hezbollah thought they can hide weaponry in schools, not putting it in any danger.

At 7/21/06 02:32 PM, superlunk wrote:

At 7/21/06 01:05 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: People are dying on both sides, but Israel is the only one trying to prevent deaths. Either side can get gruesome pictures and sympathetic stories.

Lebanon is trying to prevent deaths, but the reality is that Israeli weapons are stonger and more accurate. Have you ever heard of Bunker-Busters?

yes, i have. we throw this things on Hezbollah bunkers.

Killing in self-defense is not terrorism. It's defending yourself. But Israel is not killing in self-defense, they are on the offensive.

Terrorism is the intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure and causing civilian deaths.
Israel is intentionaly destroying civilian infrastructure. That's terrorism.

not if it is a part of self defending.. it hurts civilians too but the intension is to hurt Hezbollah and not the civilians.

I never said that. i said that while trying to destroy an organization well hiden among innocents, innocents will be killed. and i'm sorry, but i rather a lebanese dude die in the proccess of killing, say, nasralla, then my family being hit by a rocket. (wouldn't u?)

Yeah but you really haven't damaged Hezbollah's capability to fight back, as they are still launching rockets in Israel. I believe a ground invasion into Hezbollah territory would have been much more effective and would have yeilded low civilian casualties.

people IN THIS THREAD already told that israel is being too agresive by prepering for a groung move. so we are so agresive no metter what we do, right?

yes we did.

Do you have proof?

what proof do you want me to give you?

you think wrong. sorry, that's all i have to say.

as my brother is a uav operator, i can tell you that we have intelligence to show you wrong.

You responded to yourself....
Hezbollah does have humanitarian functions and they do help build schools and hospitals.
You clearly did not read what I posted.

yeah well... i accidently deleted your response there. Hezbollah maybe building scholls and stuff but our intelligence show they also hide weaponry in there...

At 7/21/06 01:37 PM, The_Toller wrote:

You could send soldiers to search the suspected houses instead of simply blowing them up?

a. we don't need to- as i said we can check houses from the air. a house which we see a rocket coming out of is bomb- that simple.

If you used ground troops you could save both buildings essential to the Lebanese and civilians.

that's what israel want to do but then everyone say we're doing wrong by entering lebanon
although we don't actually to happy about it because we don't want out soldiers to be hurt.

do you really think we can get ground forces in the middle of Lebanon without getting them killed?!

In my opinion its better that soldiers die then civilians. Its the soldiers' job to die and kill the enemy. While civilians should be kept out of it as much as possible.

fuck man! soldiers are just human beings! my brother is a soldier, a lot of my friends are! in half an year or so i'll be too! our soldiers don't need to die to save the nation who didn't know how to deal with Hezbollah

I'm talking about Lebanese infrastructure... So Lebenese people should suffer because criminals happen to use the same bridges, roads e.t.c. as they are?

it's not nice to say but... yes. they didn't stop Hezbollah when they had the chance. now we must... and that what we got to do in order to stop Hezbollah

I'm not so sure about that... by the looks of it not everyone agrees that the Lebanese goverment cooperated with the Hezbollah and think that they only lacked the resources and training needed to take care of the terroristgroup.

it doesn't metter! they couldn't take care of Hezbollah, now we must do it.

You walk a very dangerous path. If the attack on Lebanon turns into a humanitarian disaster because Isreal targeted bridges, powerplants e.t.c. Isreal's reputation is going to sink to the bottom. If you're not careful you might loose the US's support.

You're going to have to learn the same lesson the US has learned: only make a mess if you're prepared to clean up after yourself... I mean the US have been in Iraq and Afgahnistan for how many years?

I can't agree with u more but we don't have a choise here

I'm pretty sure most people would rather be offended then living in constant fear of being bombed?

no. because for the religouse jews pig's greez is as bad as it is for muslims (and we also have no intantion to harm the rights of innocent israeli muslims. not all muslims are terrorists u know.

I'm starting to think Isreali's like fighting :S You're prepared to kill innocent civilians just to kill a few terrorists but you're not willing to temponarilly offend a few muslims to perhaps save both Isreali and arab lives?

Tell the muslims they're excused from military service or put them in a unit that doesn't use it if they have something against it? I mean I've heard about Jews who have been excused from military service for religous reasons...

yeah... we do that, then the whole fuckin' world say we can't go shooting pig's greez on people, ofending their religioun, muslims all over the world will hate us for that, fanatics would go on war against israel just for doing that!

At 7/21/06 12:39 PM, superlunk wrote:

If Israel does't attack Syria or Iran, they won't interfere.

at the begining syria threatened that it would interfere if israel keep attacking lebanon

Not very many. I'm sure that the kid in the picture below is a terrorist.

kids die in israel too you know. we just don't show their pictures because we're not populists.

how many of them knew all along that they live next door to a terrorist and did nothing?!

Not many, agian. If you are a terrorist you don't advertise it.

oh really? so rockets and stuff just moved unnoticely in the city, big time Hezbollah commanders kept their identity silenced?

I apoligise. I thought you didn't know what a Power Plant was, not that you did not understand the language.

a. it wasn't me who didn't understand
b. apoligy taken

Ok. I am just surprised that you think that you only hit terrorists.

I never said that. i said that while trying to destroy an organization well hiden among innocents, innocents will be killed. and i'm sorry, but i rather a lebanese dude die in the proccess of killing, say, nasralla, then my family being hit by a rocket. (wouldn't u?)

But you haven't killed many terrorists, have you?

yes we did.

you think wrong. sorry, that's all i have to say.

as my brother is a uav operator, i can tell you that we have intelligence to show you wrong.

Most of the rockets are already in place, they do not need to be moved unless attacked by Israeli forces. All Hezbollah has to do is light the fuse... and the rockets launch.

yeah but the launchers are constantly moved because IDF constantly bomb launch sites.

you got that right.

I'm glad we agree on something. >:P

i'm glad you're glad ;)

At 7/21/06 12:37 PM, RedScorpion wrote: It seems somewhat ridiculous to bomb these institutions under the pretenses of preventing terrorism, since the essence of terrorism is guerrila warfare, with a civilian guise.

Under the current roles (I would thank Shayel for this), how would you know who is a terrorist and who is not?

I mean, look at this.

300 people? how many of which were terrorist or assisted them?
how many of them were arged to leave that places befor the bombings?
how many of them knew all along that they live next door to a terrorist and did nothing?!

I mean, I guess they all have to be killed now, if we are to ever ensure terrorism is destroyed, right? Certainly they all deserve to die because of the supposed conditions that they may have lived in before (see the three lines above).

I didn't say they ALL deserved dying. I said that they weren't all innocents, most of them (i guess) were terrorinst for which the bombs were sent...

about the mik factory etc. i never said that i agree with everything my government does. i don't know y they did it. maybe they had their reasons, i don't have a clue so i don't juctify it.

in conclusion of everything i said in here:
Israel has been attacked by terror organizations for too long. the kidnnaping of two soldiers and the Katyusha rockets were only the thing that broke us, not the whole reason.

Israel is now trying to destroy Hezbollah, unfortunatly it says destroying houses which contains their rockets, destroy trucks that are suspacted to carying rockets, hurming the infrastructures which Hezbollah uses etc.

the lebanese government and the lebanese nation shouldn't have let Hezbollah rise among them but they did, allowing them to attack israel, and therfor are responsible for the attacking of israel territory, exectly as israel was to blame if a fanatic israeli attacked lebanon.
even after the Hezbollah attack, the lebanese government did nothing to stop it,
it doesn't even metter if they could or couldn't- it has now became our problem to deal with.
and we can't do it as peacfully as the government of lebanon could maybe have beacuse we can't go house by house and check it- we must bomb from the air, and so we bomb everything that looks suspicious.
i don't say innocents aren't getting killed, i'm not happy about it, but this is wat we HAVE TO DO in order to save oursalves!

that whole thread is starting to repeat it self, so... i guess i won't be replying anymore (unless i see a new argument or question).
if anyone want to talk:
shayelk@gmail.com

have a nice life

Hoping there will be peace in here some day,
shayel

At 7/21/06 11:46 AM, RedScorpion wrote:

I think I read somewhere that Hezbollah had 150 missles (or 90) that could reach as far as Tel Aviv. =(

Hope you make out okay in the conflict.

But, Lebanon is getting hit pretty hard too...

Seems like there's much destruction on both sides. =\

yeah... that was Hezbollah's headquarters in the middle of Beirut if im not mistaken.

At 7/21/06 11:39 AM, superlunk wrote:

Lol, have you seen the damage the Katyusha's made? OMG they blew off a couple windows!!!! HOW WILL WE SURVIVE?

yeah... they also blew off everyone in that house along with the two windows.

That's called shrapnel. Did you know that Israel does the same thing, only it puts SHARP

PIECES OF METAL compared to marbles?

no, i didn't I'm almost sure that you're mistaking but... you're welcom to prove me otherwise

That's a SCUD not skad. Also, why did Israel put Patriot missile installations if they are only being hit with Katyusha? I doubt that Hezbollah has Scud missiles. If they did, Israel would have spotted them with their UAVs and Satellite Reconassaince.

Because Israel's afraid that Syria and Iran will interfeer... and they have Scuds.

Israel has killed atleast 300 people in Lebanon.... I think about 26 are dead in Israel?

300 people? how many of which were terrorist or assisted them?
how many of them were arged to leave that places befor the bombings?
how many of them knew all along that they live next door to a terrorist and did nothing?!

Well I thought you were supposed to be smart?
Power plants make electricity for the people. There is nothing without electricity.

not being an excellent english speaker doesn't makes u stupid- what if we were talking hebrew? would i consider u stupid for not understanding?

Wow you are a true idiot. So you sent people to investigate the houses before you bombed them? So, you are telling me that your missiles check if the people in the houses help hezbollah, and your bombs only hit terrorists? That's bullshit. Seriously.

did i ever called you an idiot?! watch your mouse man, we're trying to have a civilized discussion.

does aren't our missiles which chackes does houses, it's our intelligence.
anfortunatly, our bombs hurt innocents as well- but that's a war we're having here. we can't completely avoid killing innocents.

How do you know? Hezbollah may be a terrorist organization, but that is only one wing. Hezbollah also has a humanitarian organization that is seperate from the war effort. I do not think Hezbollah would risk the lives of their own children to hide rockets.

you think wrong. sorry, that's all i have to say.

Gas stations and fuel tank so they won't have gas and fuel for they're tanks which lunch the rockets.

You don't need Gasoline to launch a rocket. You are invalid.

you need gas to drive the launcher trucks, to drive the rockets from it's storage place to the border etc... don't play stupid.

Ok now?

No.

you got that right.

BTW have Isreal even managed to find a plane carrying weapons or is that just an assumtion/precaution from Isreal's side?

that's just a precaution. because we know that they will try to smuggle weaponry in.

UAV?

Unmaned Airborn Vehicle- plans with cameras which are being controlled from the ground. they send an real-time streaming video so that IDF can know exactly who's where and when.

You could send soldiers to search the suspected houses instead of simply blowing them up?

a. we don't need to- as i said we can check houses from the air. a house which we see a rocket coming out of is bomb- that simple.
do you really think we can get ground forces in the middle of Lebanon without getting them killed?!

I'm talking about Lebanese infrastructure... So Lebenese people should suffer because criminals happen to use the same bridges, roads e.t.c. as they are?

it's not nice to say but... yes. they didn't stop Hezbollah when they had the chance. now we must... and that what we got to do in order to stop Hezbollah

I'm pretty sure most people would rather be offended then living in constant fear of being bombed?

no. because for the religouse jews pig's greez is as bad as it is for muslims (and we also have no intantion to harm the rights of innocent israeli muslims. not all muslims are terrorists u know.

About the power plants- I didn't know israel bombed such... I dont agree with it and think it is a stupid, non-human thing to do. (it took me a long time to answer because i had to run to the shelter in the middle... incoming missiles alerts were raised and all...)

At 7/21/06 10:09 AM, RedScorpion wrote: Ok. I'm a bit confused as well, as it provides a much more clear service to the population than bridges, airports, and seaports. Electricity is needed for virtually everything in civilization, and the importance to the people is much more defined to them than it is to the government (although important to them too). Electricity is needed to purify water, to keep food cold and refrigerated, to keep hospitals runnings, tap water running - a whole bunch of necessary things, just to sustain life.

I'm almost sure that Israel attacked no power plants anyway...
I KNOW Israel didn't bomb any power plants 'till yesterday (not sure about today but... 80\5 sure).

Hopefully that statement was an error of zealousness in the general's words...

it was probably a mistaken translate beacuse if i recall correctly it was someone in the new who said that unfortunatly that might happen if we continue does attacks. (and unfortunatly we can't stop until the Hezbollah will diarm)

Well, since explicit bombing is clearly a more negative influence on relations with Lebanon than say, forced supervision on cargo exchanges in airports, I believe that supervision would be a more tactful solution for the situation at hand.

There's also certain roles that the military can conform to taking care of this situation. Airspace control can assume a position to recon planes to and from their designation. Flights are also not random - they are all known, their arrival time, where they will arrive, what plane they are, where they came from, etc. In this case, pre-prepared units of soldiers can be dispatched with absolute efficiency, being that, say - 5 soldiers to look over a small plane, 10 soldiers for a medium, 20 for a large, etc. (just an example). This can also be minimalized to flights inbound from Sudan/Iran, or other areas, if necessary.

Basically, they can know well ahead of time what to do, and what to expect, what to notice as suspicious (I'm certain that Israeli forces are well trained in anti-terrorism roles like these), and efficiency won't be spared simply because it's a big airport.

Bridges

I didn't address this last time, but for surveillance methods here, I would recommend looking at the Canada/US border control methods. Since the occurance of 9/11, new techniques have been developed especially for anti-terrorist roles. Although I don't know too much about the subject myself, I know it would certainly be a good area to look at for safety protocols for exchanges between two countries. If JoS happens to pass by (figuratively), I would ask him a bit about it (since he's an immigration officer and all). =P

yeah... all that if you think that Lebanon will just let Israeli soldiers stand in their airport and border-passes and check each incoming plane and truck... but truth is they will probablly get shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me to destroy it as a solution.

no, it's not. without a seaport only small boats can get in, passing men and supplies but no havey weaponry.

At 7/21/06 10:10 AM, The_Toller wrote:

Aren't Katyushas mobile? So couldn't they simply park their Katyusha launcher next to an innocent family's house then simply drive away before the missle/artillary shell hits?

because IDF intelligence is on real time via UAV's and those UAV's make sure our warplans don't attack a place with no Hezbollah forces in it.

*shrugs* saw it on the news a few years ago. They might have stopped it or the method might be used in a limited area.

nope- never been used in israel as i already said

It wasn't Lebanon that fired rockets into your country, it was a small criminal organization that did it. Besides by not paying you're only punishing the civilians. The terrorists and goverment will be able to get the things they need somehow.

By not stoping Hezbollah and by lating it shoot from it's territory, the Lebanon government has full responsbility for that war.
(If THEY don't stop the missile luanch from their country, we MUST do it)

At 7/21/06 09:15 AM, Turandot wrote:

Totally agree with you. These new forum posters have no idea about war. They go on about a damaged Israeli house without seeing the film and news video from beriut as at today showing thousands of homes destroyed. When I say thousands, I mean thousands.

our news show the bombed Beirut all the time- no, it's not for us to celabrate but for us to know that this war kills innocents in both sides! but we have no choice!

Suck it up Israeli, you just look like you're somehow trying to make yourself appear a victim yet again.

Have you ever thought for a second that maybe we ARE victims? I don't say you must belive we are but... think about it

You've failed to answer my points originally;

1) Rocket and suicide bombing attacks were falling

2) According to both your Government, Amnesty International and others, the number of dead or injured in 2006 and late 2005 was SIGNIFICANTLY less than previous years.

yeah... and then they kidnnaped two soldiers and start bombing us.

Therefore, peace may not have fully been in place, but it was the best it had been for a while.

and they ruined it... unfortunatly

Don't you see you've gone and ruined that by doing these illegal (Because they're disproprotionate) attacks on civilian targets.

no. I honestly think that there will never be peace while Hezbollah is in Lebanon because THEY DON'T WANT PEACE!

No one would have said anything if Israel had responded with an assassination of the Hezbollah leader and recapture of their soldiers via for example special forces. Everyone would have been pleased if you'd have negotiated, but instead you bomb and have now killed over 400 civilians.

and what should have we done with the bombings over the northern Israel?

400 civilians killed, thousands injured and over 500,000 displaced by Israel's war

I don't know where you get your numbers from. sorry.

When will the Israeli's be satisfied with the blood they've spilled and say sorry? When will they realise that forces they use always ends in death for Civilians. Remember 1996, Israel killed 100 civilians and UN troops by bombing a UN base (TARGETTED KILLING OF CIVILIANS)

We will never be SATISFIED with the blood we spilled. because we HATE doing it and it gives us no satisfaction. We just want the Hezbollah to dis-arm and let us live our life in peace.

The Israeli's should be forced back.

The Hezbollah are the ones who should be forced back. when they'll disarm, give us our soldiers back and ceas-fire we will have no interest in bombing Lebanon.

sorry... I forggot a part of the message..

At 7/21/06 08:04 AM, shiri_c wrote:

Power plants- I don't know what that is sorry lol

Power plant=ê×àê ÛÕ×

At 7/21/06 08:47 AM, The_Toller wrote:

And neither will civilians, goods or other things essential to the Lebanese.

Civiliance can go by choppers- whitch are smaller and therfor can't be use for transporting big amounts of weaponry

How do they know which houses harbours terrorists and which don't?

Israeli intelligence is one of the best in the world. for this particular mission the IDF mainly use UAV's

And civilians won't be able to use them either.

Unfortunatly civils and the Hezbollah uses the same infrastructure such as roads, bridges etc. so if we want to hurt Hezbollah infrastructure it will damage civils too, we have nothing to do about it.

again how do they seperate an ordinary office building from a "Hezbollah" office building?

If we see Hezbollah guys oftenly geting in and out a certain building, Hezbollah radio transmits from a certain building etc. we know it's being used by Hezbollah as an office building... again- intelligance...

and it also makes it impossible (or at least much harder) for civilians to flee from the war zones.

again- Hezbollah's hurting they're on people by using the same infrastructure and making us have to destroy it in order to fight Hezbollah.

BTW does anyone know if Isreal is going to repay Lebanon for all the structual damage they've done just like the US did to Iraq?

Do Hezbollah intend to pay for houses it destroy? Israel practicaly has no money for itself. we can't pay for the Hezbollah infrastructure we had to destroy because THEY started a war.

I read a while ago that Isreal had tried putting pig grease (I think it was) on their busses to stop the terrorists from blowing them up. If I remember the branch of Islam the terrorists belonged to believed that being in contact with a pig (or parts of a pig) when you died would stop you from going to heaven. I think the only way for Isreal to stop terrorism is to take away the terrorists' place in heaven. I'm not entirely sure how this should be done though (perhaps by dipping bullets e.t.c. in pig grease?) All I know is brute force will most likely only create more recruits for the terrorists orginazations.

lol... no one puts pig greez nowhere... it is not kosher and will hurt religious jews as well... and it's not practical .

At 7/21/06 09:01 AM, F-8-L-E-T wrote:

At 7/21/06 08:41 AM, Shayel wrote: stuff

Nohh man..

Israel is greedy for money, they know that without American help Israel is nothing more then dust and jews..

So they want to monoplize the whole region cutting of the Arab world of bizniz.
This planning was allready in progress since the beginning of Israel..

But cuz of the communist issue of the whole land taking shit they kept it a secret.
Like the sayin.. why does jews have big nozes ?? cuz the air is free..
leeches..

Not that i am hatin jews..
I hate the politics of Israel like that i aint hatin America but the Politics..

I'm sorry but you're talking bulshit.
Jews trying to take over the world is a Nazi theory that helped them make people hate jews... we don't have claws or anything you know.
For all I see those are fanatic MUSLIMS who try to take over the world (gihad and stuff)

I don't have a problem with you saing I'm wrong, I don't have a problem with you hating me for no reason- that's your right.
I only ask you not to make fun of my religion because I never made fun of yours (exept for the fanatics... but fanatic jew isn't any better of fanatic muslim or fanatic christian...)

At 7/21/06 07:42 AM, somegirl1 wrote: god you are the only one who talks crap
they send something like.. 1,000 rockets, right?
you want me to say that on those all rockets together werent tons of explosive?
you need a reality check
damn youre bulshiting those americans brain
BTW, as we speak, i here&feel booms near me.

I'm sorry, youer last post sounded as if you think Katyusha missiles have a 2 tone warhead... I missunderstood u.

and a little thing about my lest message: I wrote "tons? not really. a hundred or so" I ment a hundred KG's or so... not tons... I'm srry :)

about our methods: Hezbollah is like cancer in Lebanon- we should have couat it young and small and destroy it, but it grow to be in all of Lebanon. they now take no shame in hiding their rockets in schools so we have a choise: we can either let them be or bomb schools and look bad. but in order to make this cancer gone withour re-surfacing, we must kill the whole thing... Lebanon itself will probably be hurt a bit to because they feed on the same resources. (hope that u understood my example... again- english isn't exactly my mother's language)

Did your media tell u that Israel spreads fliers asking people to leave places which are about to be bomd, hurting our chance to hit the "bad guys" just to save innocents?

Israel has had enough of muslim terror organizations bombing us (you talk about 35 dead people in Lebanon? we had terror attacks that blew more people up then this whole war!) and therfor decided to destroy Hezbollah. Destroying an organization that hides between innocent population is hard! but we have to do this (and I think that the Lebanese nation will be better of without Hizbollah making their kids think they must explode in Israel to get to heven)

As I've already said: I'm really sorry for each innocent Lebanese geting killed. but don't let a terror organization rise among you and you won't be killed in the proccess of destroying that organization (Israel's police hunts down every Israeli who even think of harming Lebanon/arab vilages in Israel/everything like it... but Lebanon let the Hizbollah be their army in the south and they must suffer the consequances so we can all live in peace in here (and yes- I really think that when Hizbollah will cease to exist Lebanon and Israel will be able to start a peace proccess which will be welcomed by every one here.

The problem is that Hezbollah don't want peace with Israel. It want to destroy it!

one last thing: showing 2 ton bunker penatraiting bomb Israel fired hit a place looks really good at news and make us look like the bad people. but they forget to mantion that we actually throw that stuff on BUNKERS!

BTW- if anyone want to talk about that topic (it's a bit hard to comment hundrads of arguments in one organized message) you are welcome to write me on shayel_k@hotmail.com (msn messanger)
or shayelk@gmail.com (email, obviously ;)

At 7/21/06 04:04 AM, somegirl1 wrote:

exactly.
besides they put on the Katyusha rockets tons and tons of explosives. i just told my father what you said (about the thing you said, that israel cannot be damaged by Katyusha rockets, and he is laughing so hard =] dude, reality check?
i'm sorry that the media shows what she want to show, to create the impression, the bad impression, but theres nothing we can do, you can believe us or not.. youre choise

you see? that's exactly our problem- people talking bulshit on the net... international media is biased so we try to tell the world our side of the story. then come's people like you, talking shit and exaggerate (tons of explosive? no. "just" a hundred or so) and that makes people think we're lying.
again- "Katyusha" rockets ARE denguores, and if someone thinks he wouldn't care if his house will be hit by a "world war 1 rocket" just because it's old, let me place you wrong- the explosives on it are just as dengoures as it was 50 years ago.
but saying it has "tons" of explosives on it is bulshit...
Israeli dudes- stop talikng crap and spaming- it doesn't exactly makes people want to listen to what we have to say. and we do have important stuff to say

At 7/20/06 11:48 PM, superlunk wrote: I'd like to bring up a new point: The media.

The Media has been confusing people an falsifying events. When they say Israel was attacked by Katyusha rockets, they show footage of Israelis running into bomb shelters, then they show footage of Lebanon being attacked.

Seriously, what the fuck? They are just confusing people and making them think that Israel is actually getting damaged by rockets that were used by the Russians in WORLD WAR II.

SIXTY YEARS AGO.

Such a HUGE threat, isn't it? Lol, the Patriot Missiles are bigger than the Katyushas. And the Patriots are supposed to stop the Katyushas.

Three things:
a. The media IS wrong... But they are wrong by showing you all the stuff we do in lebanon, failing to mantion the reasons and the real story, failing to show you what hapens here in israel.

b. Yeah... "Katyusha" rockets are flying junk! but they're flying junk which kills people.
I want to see you, you brave thing, not runing into a shelter when hearing those things explode a mile from your house.
BTW- did you know the Hezbollah improved those rockets by puting dozens of little metal balls in it so that while exploding it will spread like bullets, killing everyone in it's way?

c. Bambi's father once said: "if you don't have anything wise to say, don't say anything at all"- "Patriot" missiles can't be used against "Katyusha" rockets. they are used for much bigger missiles (such as the iraqi "Skad" that was used against us in the golf war)

Hoping someone still reads this thread I posted my reply here as well... If admin really want u guys can delete the other one...

Hey,
I noticed and read (part of) the thread about the situation between Israel and Lebanon.
As an Israeli it really bugged me to see what you people think. Not because I'm an Israeli and I want you all to love us, but because I think you don't get the whole picture here (partly because of the media, not showing everything).
I want to apologize in advance for not replying there- that thread is really long and I'm afraid that no one will see my message. Obviously, it's really important to me that u do.
I also want to say that my English, obviously, isn't perfect and ask u for your consideration.

So... to our topic:
First of all, about the accusations you made about Israel murdering innocent people:
For years it has been a known tactic for terror organizations to kill Israeli's and then run for cover among their people, knowing we will not do anything to them while risking the loss of innocent life.
I'll try to use the example someone gave in that thread: Imagine you just walking down the street. A man come and slaps you and then run and hides behind a man in the street. You try to catch him without hurting the man but he keeps hiding there, so you just give it up and say "oh well…". Then he comes back, kicking you in the stomach and running again. This whole thing goes for a weak, while all this time you urged the innocent man to move and let you smack the bastard down but he wouldn't. Eventually you will probably smack both of them down, right?

What I'm trying to say is that we don't enjoy hurting innocent people. I really do feel sorry for all the innocent people getting hurt in Lebanon right now, but how can you expect us to be constantly provoked and do nothing because there are innocent people in the way?
The Lebanese government should have never let the Hezbollah reach that size and power. The Lebanese people should have never let them hide weaponry in their houses, the UN should have enforce decision 1559. But they didn't. Now Israel should do something because no one else does!

Saying that we "kill innocent and bomb the whole of Lebanon for two kidnapped soldiers" is like saying "well… they crashed a plane into a building… was it that big of a deal you needed to take over Iraq over it?".
It's not the kidnapping of those soldiers we're fighting about. It's our right to live in peace in our country. It's time to let Hezbollah know that hiding behind innocents just isn't enough anymore! It's time to destroy Hezbollah so that there will be a reasonable government in there that can take responsibility for what going on in their territory and that we can start a peace process with.

We don't want to take over Lebanon. If we did we would have done it years ago, when we almost got to Beirut trying to make a stop for those attacks on Israel, if we did, we wouldn't have got out of Lebanon, trying to let them live their life. And what do we get for doing that?! None stop bombings on the whole of northern Israel! A threat to our 3rd largest city! Do you know how it is to live here and hear the alarm, warning of incoming missiles, and the explosion sounds so close to your house?! I do! N country should allow this to happen to it's citizens!

About the bombing of airports, roads, trucks etc.
Israel has to destroy every mean for the sending of new missiles to the southern border. It includes the airport, it includes the main roads to the south and the roads between Syria and Lebanon. Israel's government also warned people from driving covered trucks for we can't know if those are trucks loaded with weapon.
The headquarters of Hezbollah are in the middle of Beirut. So what do you want us to do?! Just let them be because we don't want to risk hurting innocent people? We just can't do it anymore. The Lebanese people should get the message that if you let terrorists live among you, hide weaponry in your house and building their headquarters in your back-yard, your doing so on your own risk.

I have much more to write, but I already wrote a hell-lot so… your turn!

Hey,
I noticed and read (part of) the thread about the situation between Israel and Lebanon.
As an Israeli it really bugged me to see what you people think. Not because I'm an Israeli and I want you all to love us, but because I think you don't get the whole picture here (partly because of the media, not showing everything).
I want to apologize in advance for not replying there- that thread is really long and I'm afraid that no one will see my message. Obviously, it's really important to me that u do.
I also want to say that my English, obviously, isn't perfect and ask u for your consideration.

So... to our topic:
First of all, about the accusations you made about Israel murdering innocent people:
For years it has been a known tactic for terror organizations to kill Israeli's and then run for cover among their people, knowing we will not do anything to them while risking the loss of innocent life.
I'll try to use the example someone gave in that thread: Imagine you just walking down the street. A man come and slaps you and then run and hides behind a man in the street. You try to catch him without hurting the man but he keeps hiding there, so you just give it up and say "oh well…". Then he comes back, kicking you in the stomach and running again. This whole thing goes for a weak, while all this time you urged the innocent man to move and let you smack the bastard down but he wouldn't. Eventually you will probably smack both of them down, right?

What I'm trying to say is that we don't enjoy hurting innocent people. I really do feel sorry for all the innocent people getting hurt in Lebanon right now, but how can you expect us to be constantly provoked and do nothing because there are innocent people in the way?
The Lebanese government should have never let the Hezbollah reach that size and power. The Lebanese people should have never let them hide weaponry in their houses, the UN should have enforce decision 1559. But they didn't. Now Israel should do something because no one else does!

Saying that we "kill innocent and bomb the whole of Lebanon for two kidnapped soldiers" is like saying "well… they crashed a plane into a building… was it that big of a deal you needed to take over Iraq over it?".
It's not the kidnapping of those soldiers we're fighting about. It's our right to live in peace in our country. It's time to let Hezbollah know that hiding behind innocents just isn't enough anymore! It's time to destroy Hezbollah so that there will be a reasonable government in there that can take responsibility for what going on in their territory and that we can start a peace process with.

We don't want to take over Lebanon. If we did we would have done it years ago, when we almost got to Beirut trying to make a stop for those attacks on Israel, if we did, we wouldn't have got out of Lebanon, trying to let them live their life. And what do we get for doing that?! None stop bombings on the whole of northern Israel! A threat to our 3rd largest city! Do you know how it is to live here and hear the alarm, warning of incoming missiles, and the explosion sounds so close to your house?! I do! N country should allow this to happen to it's citizens!

About the bombing of airports, roads, trucks etc.
Israel has to destroy every mean for the sending of new missiles to the southern border. It includes the airport, it includes the main roads to the south and the roads between Syria and Lebanon. Israel's government also warned people from driving covered trucks for we can't know if those are trucks loaded with weapon.
The headquarters of Hezbollah are in the middle of Beirut. So what do you want us to do?! Just let them be because we don't want to risk hurting innocent people? We just can't do it anymore. The Lebanese people should get the message that if you let terrorists live among you, hide weaponry in your house and building their headquarters in your back-yard, your doing so on your own risk.

I have much more to write, but I already wrote a hell-lot so… your turn!