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I don't see what's wrong with a old-fashioned paper ballet. Seriously, it's not hard to mark an X in a box.

This is pretty obvious. The concept of MAD has been around a long time, and only the people stupid enough to believe all these doomsday predictions from the main-stream media propaganda machine is an idiot.

It was early in the morning when I posted and I didn't really read the first post. You asked me to give reasons:
Trudeau: Re-patriated the consitution, first Western leader to visit China, opened up diplomacy with Cuba, not to mention being a total badass.
Pearson: Universial healthcare, current Canadian flag, not to mention his noble peace prize.
King: WWII, Canadian autonomy, was a bit wierd though

At 8/13/08 10:56 AM, Saruman200 wrote: King and Trudeau were both very good. The current PM is an idiot though.

Forgot Pearson. Pearson, King, and Trudeau are in my top tier.

King and Trudeau were both very good. The current PM is an idiot though.

Well, I think the idea that China will "rule the world" is stupid. No country has ever ruled the entire world. Even the United States' place as the dominant nation on the planet is fragile. China has a way better chance of becoming the second superpower than the EU however. If anyone thinks the EU will ever be able to integrate it's military or foreign policy obviously doesn't know a thing about European history or culture. France doesn't even want to integrate it's defense policy with NATO. These countries are independent states. The EU is little more than a simple alliance, not much better than NATO, NAFTA, SCO, ASEAN, or any other treaty.

Why do wars have to have some secret reason, like oil or expansion or imperialism? Why does there have to be a conspiracy everywhere? Sometimes things are for the reasons everyone believe they are for. Everything doesn't have to have a behind the scenes reason.

At 7/11/08 03:23 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote: Just for your information, there gossips floating around here that certain provocative acts of aggression, that have occurred in the zones of conflicts, were perpetrated by the Georgian government itself in order to publicly vilify the Russian side and, particularly, the "Peacekeepers" it has entrenched there.

I find this highly likely. Russia has been vilified in this conflict. While the Russian hypocracy is obvious (it's not okay for Kosovo and Checniya to break off, but if South Ossetia wants to it's fine), that is no excuse. The Western/Georgian side is being hypocritical too, by taking the opposite stance. But Georgia is killing just as many civilians as Russia (more actually). It's stupid to try to paint one side as in the right and one as in the wrong. Both have violated international treaties and killed civilians. While I sympathise with Russia more, I don't endorse all their actions, just like it's stupid to portray Russia as a evil empire and Georgia as the victim.

At 8/12/08 08:26 PM, aninjaman wrote: In case it matters here is my opinion

This call for a stop in military action seems like Russia is basically saying that we have won, we are keeping our military here, and will fight if you attack. Russia is basically claiming the breakaway provinces as part of Russia. Also Russia still bombing Georgia, and then lying about it like a child that stole cookies, and separatists still burning ethnic Georgian villages and refugees from both sides pouring in this is going nowhere.

Russia may still be bombing, but I haven't heard a single thing about sepratists burning Georgian villages, even from the pro-Georgian Western media. Sounds like propaganda to me. The only human rights violations I'm believing are the ones confirmed by the International Red Cross and Human Rights Watch. That being, they have both condemmed Georgia for it's ruthless bombardment of the South Ossetian capital's civilian areas including the hospital. Other than that, no genocide or attacks on civilians have been confirmed (the remaining civilian casualties are results of citizens caught in bombings or attacks on military bases).

At 8/12/08 11:59 AM, 7384-9809 wrote:
Then prove it with a credible source and how do you know that the Russians aren't lying just to convince the "Western world" that they are the victim?
Hence the phrase: "The first casualty of War is the truth"

Also note that it all boils down to whichever country can come up with the best sob story for the media to decide which country it should portray as the good people and of course, both sides will most likely lie to convince the rest of the world that they are the victim

My source is wikipedia. They cite the International Red Cross. Is the Red Cross a good enough source for you?

As for adshepard, I don't think he's a troll. He just exercising a minority viewpoint. While his view may attract anger, I don't think he's trying to troll. Saying something that may be angering isn't trolling. Trolling is looking for a fight, saying inflammatory comments for the purpose of pissing people off. He's not doing that. He may be pissing people off, but not on purpose (or at least it looks that way.

I can't believe you guys actually believe this Georgian/Western propaganda. Georgia has killed 2,000 civilians, Russia has killed 100 civilians. Yep, Russia is definatly the bad guy here. For god sake's, we're not even sure if Russia has taken Gori yet. The pictures we've been seeing of destroyed Georgian towns have been exposed. Wanna know what they really are? Pictures of South Ossetia after Georgian bombing. The fact that people just lap up this old Cold War "The Russians are coming!" crap amazes me.

New update, Georgia is bombarding the South Ossetian capital again. The Human Rights Watch and International Red Cross have called for a halt to the bombardment because it's killing many people and many wounded are trapped inside the ruble of the destroyed hospital. Russia has bombed warplane factory on the outskirts of the Georgian capital. BuddhaGeo, were are you getting your info? Russia has bombed three towns: Poti, Gori, and that warplane factory. The planes about you are Georgain, not Russian.

At 8/10/08 07:17 PM, animehater wrote: Russia before: "People shouldn't be seceding and forming their own countries!" With the likes of Kosovo and Chechnya

Russia today: "The people of South Ossetia should be free to separate from Georgia"

Hypocrisy isn't just a Western thing.

Of course Russia is being hypocritical, but it doesn't mean their in the wrong. They were doing the wrong thing in Kosovo and Chechnya, but what there doing now is completely justified if you look at the history of the region, the current events, and the Consitution of the Russian Federation.

At 8/10/08 05:44 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote:

At 8/10/08 05:27 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 8/10/08 04:36 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: you know what, don't even bother replying cuz I'm the fuck out of here, there are way too many little kids here spewing out their emo bullshit, so I'm done wasting time here, have a happy life, goodye, see yaz, God bless you stupid people.

Again? lol

Yes again, there are too many stupid people here to even bother having an intelligent conversation since their minds go completely blank when they hear somone talk about God.
My understanding is that you do believe in God but just act like you don't, you guys are just afraid or you hate him due to your love of evil.

That is, without a doubt, one of the stupidiest things I have ever, ever, ever heard in my ENTIRE life. We love evil because we don't believe in God. Because believing in God makes you such a good, peaceful person, like Osama bin Laden. You say our minds go blank when we here about God, but whenever we critize belief in him your first response is "stupid emo kids". Don't you see how stupid and hypocrtical you are, or are you just so full of shit you've gone deaf?

At 8/10/08 04:36 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: you know what, don't even bother replying cuz I'm the fuck out of here, there are way too many little kids here spewing out their emo bullshit, so I'm done wasting time here, have a happy life, goodye, see yaz, God bless you stupid people.

My murdered braincells cry out for vengeance! I swear, after reading that I think my IQ went down a few points. You can't call some stupid in a post composed of sentances like "you know what, don't even bother replying cuz I'm the fuck out of here, there are way too many little kids here spewing out their emo bullshit"

At 8/10/08 02:11 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:

At 8/10/08 12:15 PM, ForkRobotik wrote: If china attacked taiwan and the US intervened people would NOT be going batshit at all, because it is the exact same situation.

china = georgia
taiwan = south ossetia
usa = russia

The usa would never allow china to attack taiwan, just as russia will not allow georgia to attack south ossetia. Infact there is more legitimacy in russia's actions, as georgia has broken a ceasefire treaty, whereas there is no treaty between china and taiwan.

Its more like china = russia as China views the Georgian territory as their own. You also don't have it quite right because in this case south ossetia was launching missiles at georgian towns before georgia began attacking back.

Its more like exactly what it is. Russia is becoming expansionist again and excersising its might to get its political clout back and no one wants to do anything because no one wants a third world war. So, Russia is going to keep nibbling at territories around itself just enough so that the only way to stop them is to declare open war, all the while pretending to be pieceful.

If anything this sounds more like Germany pre WWII. Only in this case, its Russia recovering from a fallen economy and trying to "unite" its lands. How long will they be allowed to continue along this course? Will they?

South Ossetia launching missles at Georgia seems to be propaganda to me. No villages have been found on the Georgian side of the de facto Georgia-South Ossetia border with artillery shells or holes created by shells in them. Russia doesn't view South Ossetia as Russian land. South Ossetia wants to join with Russia, Russia isn't the one pushing for a joining of the two states.

At 8/10/08 04:12 PM, tkrow wrote:

At 8/10/08 02:57 PM, BuddhaGeo wrote: URGENT UPDATE
I just peeked my head out of the window after hearing some warplanes sounds. As far as I'm concerned, it's a Russian warplane roaming freely in the sky above me.

Good luck.

So Georgia met Russia's demands and then Russia bombed the capital?

Whenever or not Georgia actually met Russian demands is a matter of debate. While the Georgian Media reports that they have withdrawn from South Ossetia, the Georgian military said they withdrew from the South Ossetian CAPITAL, but have moved to different positions in South Ossetia and fortified there. As for South Ossetia launching missles at Georgia, that is based on a single comment from the Georgian government. No other international body (Russian gov., Both militaries, South Ossetian gov., International Red Cross, or any media) have confirmed this.

At 8/10/08 12:15 PM, ForkRobotik wrote:

At 8/10/08 11:46 AM, ToddM wrote: Why are people supporting Russia in this?

If the U.S. did it people would be going batshit insane here.

If china attacked taiwan and the US intervened people would NOT be going batshit at all, because it is the exact same situation.

china = georgia
taiwan = south ossetia
usa = russia

The usa would never allow china to attack taiwan, just as russia will not allow georgia to attack south ossetia. Infact there is more legitimacy in russia's actions, as georgia has broken a ceasefire treaty, whereas there is no treaty between china and taiwan.

Why is it that america always sees russia as the bad guy, even when they are fighting the good fight? Cold war paranoia?

Good example. My thoughts exactly. Russia will always be made out as the bad guy. During the 90s when Russia was weak and did whatever the US said it was praised for being "democratic" and "humanitarian". Now that it's actually starting to challenge the US again, it's evil.

At 8/10/08 11:27 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote: What are you calling the outskirts of the city? There are many apartments over there. My close relatives have got an apartment over there, right in front of the plant, and they called in terrified asking us to provide them with refuge once again.

That's what the Associated Press called it. I must stress that Russia has said that now that Georgia has pulled out of South Ossetia they will begin to negotiate a ceasefire. This could be over soon, until then I hope for you and your family's safety.

At 8/10/08 11:13 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote: URGENT UPDATE
The Russian aviation has again dropped a few bombs in the capital of Tbilisi! This happened a few moments ago! Note that this is happening after a day since the Georgians left South Ossetia!

The bombs hit a plant on the outskirts of the city and there were no casualities. Now that Georgia has pulled out of South Ossetia, both sides are pushing for a truce. This could be the end of it.

At 8/10/08 03:09 AM, Phobotech wrote:

At 8/10/08 03:03 AM, ForkRobotik wrote:

At 8/10/08 02:50 AM, Phobotech wrote: What the hell, I never heard about this. Why the hell would Georgia attack the Russians?

So the tanks, air-strikes, they're counter-attacking reinforcements from the North defending troops that had been there the whole time? Or were those said reinforcements already there too?

The reinforcements came in today, and they have retaken the provincial capital from georgia.

There were also reports last night that georgia had bombed some places in south ossetia with jets, and today russia sent their jets in(in broad daylight no less) and destroyed the air force base near the georgian capital.

Now it seems that russia is completely pushing georgia out of the province (they had held some areas before).

Then here are my new set of questions:

1. What's likely to happen to South Ossetia and the Georgians?

2. How is this affecting Russia's reputation as a nation?

and 3. Will the UN take action?

1. The South Ossetians are fleeing into Russia. The Georgians, not sure, we'll have to wait till some sort of ceasefire to see what will happen to them.

2. Not much. The only countries making noise about it are the ones that didn't like Russia in the first place.

3. Unless there's genocide, I doubt it.

New Casualty Numbers:

Russian side:
21 Soldiers dead,
150 Soldiers wounded,
2 Soldiers caputured,
1,600-2,000 Civilians killed,
90 Civilians wounded

Georgian Side:
200 Soldiers dead,
100 Civilians killed

At 8/10/08 02:50 AM, Phobotech wrote:

At 8/10/08 02:44 AM, ForkRobotik wrote:

At 8/10/08 02:34 AM, Phobotech wrote:
He said it's likely the UN is holding an emergency security council meeting now, seeing as how Russia seems to be invading and occupying South Ossetia now.

Discuss.

This is wrong, as russian troops were already in South Ossetia protecting the breakaway province from georgia. They are also in abkazia btw, another breakaway province.

What the hell, I never heard about this. Why the hell would Georgia attack the Russians?

So the tanks, air-strikes, they're counter-attacking reinforcements from the North defending troops that had been there the whole time? Or were those said reinforcements already there too?

The Georgian President has long called the Russian peacekeepers in the zone non-neutral and accused them of helping the sepratists. During the Georgian attack on South Ossetia that started this whole thing, 13 Russian Soldiers where killed when a shell landed on their barracks.

At 8/10/08 01:25 AM, Redbob86 wrote: The argument abour Russians defending their citizens is a complete load of bullshit. If they wanted to "protect their citizens", why the hell didn't they just let them back into Russia?

The Russians with passports in this region are just an excuse to stage an anexation.

God help the people of Georgia.

30,000 South Ossetians are already in Russia. That's almost half the population of South Ossetia. More are being evacuated. The passports arn't an excuse. The consitution of the Russian Federation clearly states that it is Russia's duty to help it's citizens. As for the UN, they'll call for a ceasefire. China will espicially want one because of the Olympics, and France, Britian, and the US want it to end so Georgia can become part of NATO. Russia will try to get something out of it, like some land or oil. There's already talk of the genocide of ethnic Ossetians. If Georgia is really doing that, then the ceasefire will go out the window.

At 8/9/08 10:38 PM, Phobotech wrote:

At 8/9/08 09:59 PM, Saruman200 wrote: The idea that Iran is developing nucleur weapons is a common misconception, but no international body has every made that charge, rather they are worried about what I just explained.

The possibility of a weaponized Iran is only more and more likely considering the TIMING of all of this going down. Don't forget the upcoming elections might play a bigger hand in it than we can appreciate.

Yes, America has elections coming up...and I fear that Obama might be too passive and McCain might be too aggressive. Whoever gets elected though will have an Administration to help make the right decisions, so I digress...but Israel is ALSO about to have another election. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but apparently this new guy Israel is looking into is a hawk, and Iran might strike then.

What will happen after that is anyone's guess.

Lets not forget that Israel already has nuclear weapons (around 200 by intelligence community estimates). Iran will never be able to build enough nukes to equal that anytime soon. They haven't even started working on their first one! If anything, the elections could help cool this down. Bush won't want to go out as the guy that started WWIII. McCain is being way too aggresive in my opinion. He's taking the Cold War "The Russians are coming!" attitude. But then again, it's starting to look more and more like a Neo-Cold War between the US, China, and Russia. Obama, I'm not sure. He seems to be catering to both sides, which could be a good or bad thing. However Obama is choosing a much less risky approach here, which is turning me in his favour during an election that I've had trouble deciding who to vote for.

At 8/9/08 10:11 PM, poxpower wrote:
The evidence for God is just as strong as the evidence for Nessie, the Sasquatch, Dragons, Unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, homeopathy, psychic healing and feng shui.

I agree, but it's just not enough for the religious people.

At 8/9/08 09:51 PM, Creek wrote:

At 8/9/08 08:36 PM, Phobotech wrote:

At 8/9/08 12:59 PM, penis-plant wrote: I think they are fighting because they are bored. No one has payed attention to them since the cold war.

Alot of News Sources are comparing the events leading up to this as very Cold-War era...we may be looking at a second if it doesn't escalate into other countries' involvement.

I've been thinking about this exact thing for a while.
America is helping / supplying Israel which is defending itself from arabs, and Russia is helping / supplying Iran, who fund terrorism. Also Russia is helping Iran gain nuclear technology.

Let's not bring Israel and Iran into this. That's a whole different debate. Note, however, Russia is helping Iran develop nucleur POWER not nucleur WEAPONS. Very different things. The worry now is that once Russia and China give Iran nucleur power it will use that power to create weapons on it's own. The idea that Iran is developing nucleur weapons is a common misconception, but no international body has every made that charge, rather they are worried about what I just explained.

At 8/9/08 09:49 PM, animehater wrote: I think I'd be more understanding of the Russians if they weren't becoming increasingly totalitarian and confrontational with the west, and didn't get involve in strictly Georgian affairs.

Russia isn't totalitarian. They have free elections. A greater percent of the Russian people vote in their elections than do Americans vote in theirs. Dmitry Medvedev won with 87% of the vote. If you consider such a landslide totalitarian, then you certainly should be against Georgia, where there current president (can't remember how to spell his name so I won't try) won with 96% of the vote. It wasn't a strictly Georgian affair either. South Ossentia wants to become part of Russia and many South Ossentians have Russian passports. I agree with you about Russia being confrontational with the West, but that's what great powers do, battle each other for influence. The West does the same with Russia and China.

At 8/9/08 08:47 PM, CIX wrote:

At 8/9/08 07:17 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

However, modern liberals, progressives, and some socialists favor greater personal liberty. As for "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", liberal/progressives are not at all opposed to liberty and unity. They better represent personal and individual freedom than their right-wing opponents.

This is completely incorrect. More regulations from the left-wing does not result in more freedom or liberty. Just because people think the Republican Party is comprised of mostly right-wing people does not mean it's true. Their policies are so close to the Democrats that I find them to on the left-wing side.

I wasn't just talking about the US, there are other countries in the world too. Gay marriage, Abortion Rights, Legalized Marijuana, Legalized Prostitution, Lower Drinking Age, Lower Age of Consent, and No Election Funding Reform are greater personal liberty, like it or not. The defintion of left wing is more liberty. It orginated prior to the French Revolution when those who favored freer, republican style government sat on the left away from the king, while those who favored a more conservative, autocratic form of government sat on the right.

I also forgot to include that Russia has shot down 3 Georgian planes. Georgia reports it has shot down 10 Russian planes, but Russia says only 2 of it's planes are missing. A Georgian I talked to on the internet said that the Russian shot one of the Georgian pilots when he parachuted out of his plane and his chute caught in a tree. Not sure that's accurate, he just said that's the current rumor going around. Here's where I got those numbers:

Russian Side:
21 Soldiers dead (Russian military),
70 Soldiers wounded (Russian military),
1,300 (South Ossentian government, confirmed by International Red Cross)-2000 (Russian government) Civilians killed
30,000 Refugees in Russia (Russian Government, confirmed by International Red Cross)
2 (Russian Military)-10 (Georgian Military) planes shot down

Georgian Side:
70 (Georgian Government)-130 (Russian Military) killed/wounded,
12-80 Civilians killed/wounded (Georgian Government)
3 Planes Shot Down (Russian Military, verified)

At 8/9/08 08:53 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

Current casualties for both sides:

Russian side: Georgian side:
21 soldiers dead, 70 soldiers killed/wounded,
70 soldiers wounded, 12-80 civilians killed
1,300-2,000 civilians killed,
30,000 refugees in Russia

My casuatly lists are messed up. Here's the correct list:

Russian side:
21 soldiers dead,
70 soldiers wounded,
1,300-2,000 civilians killed,
30,000 refugees in Russia fled to Russia

Georgian side:
70-130 Soldiers killed/wounded,
12-80 civilians killed/wounded