At 11/9/09 01:00 AM, MindChamber wrote: this part I understood.

Glad you understand stuff, cuz im still stumped, I dont understand any of that code jargon flargon.

The specs are up guys, read BOMs post in the discussion thread very carefully, but here it is in a nut shell
All images must be rasterized
Final product in .gif or .png format
If you are going to animate something, the fewer the frames the better.
The speed of the level is changeable between levels.
Mini bosses are ok, but go light on them.
Final bosses should have at most 3 stages (2 horsemen at a time, followed by all 4 together maybe?)
Bullets can looks custom, but will behave in a set manner
Intro and Exit cutscenes are ok
Penis

At 11/8/09 11:42 PM, deadspread83 wrote: Good question. I had kind of hoped for a "mostly" top down angle, it just seems like there's more stuff you can do, but if it needs to be completely top down, that's cool.

At 11/8/09 11:32 PM, DooDooMeaT wrote: We need to talk about the angle...is this going to be completely top down???

if people want a mostly top down thats fine, chances are we can fudge around between the two and it wont be too obvious. Although maybe im thinking mostly top down meaning something different, someone care to give an example between the two?

At 11/9/09 12:20 AM, angryglacier wrote: TL;DR: needs moar bioshock feeling.

We can have an intro and exit cutscene, I dont think the programmers want to do much more than that.

At 11/9/09 12:51 AM, angryglacier wrote: I'm thinking maybe there could be advanced machinery that could be left unharmed

Elaborate

I'll post what we have to far set in stone tommorow and start giving you guys more spesific assingments. And yes i know i havent drawn anything yet, I'm in the middle of my senior review board which ends next week so I probably wont have to much art till then.

Are we dead set on keyboard shoot straight in front controls or would mouse aiming be a possibility?

At 11/8/09 09:21 PM, flashwarrior wrote: I'd like to work on/pitch ideas for some other small things for BG/atmosphere like random dead bodies, toppled over cars, bags of money lying around abandoned and useless from everyone stealing things before most people died etc. etc.

Sure background ideas are going to be more lenient because they dont require programing and are just eye candy.

Other ideas I had that I'd like some other peoples input on:
A group of gangbanger looking people with machine guns who fire at you, running in a line of three or back to back formation thing?

Draw it then we will see, enemy movement though is really more up to the programmer. But if you do draw an enemy tell us how you want it to act.

Part of the level where you briefly drive in a vehicle and get chased/fight other people on vehicles like motorcycles and things until you run out of gas/vehicle breaks down?

I don't know about switching character mid level, that might be extra work the programmers don't want.

Mounds of dirt/hills that slow you down when you run over them because they're elevation?

Again its up to BOM to decide what defects obstacles give.

Survivors you can save for points or shoot for health/powerups?

Sure, sounds like a good way for powerups if powerups are granted by means other than just killing enemies.

I would like to be associated in the creation of the boss or some sort of subboss atleast in some way because I love boss fights to death. I know some of my idead might end up being obsolete or just plain bad but that's why I'm suggesting them for input by others instead of saying "hay wee shuld do this its a gewd idea"

Do some concept sketches, other team mates might be inspired by them even if they dont get used.

At 11/8/09 09:51 PM, DooDooMeaT wrote: I think that it would be silly to have a man walking around and all you can do is shoot forward...

Normally I would agree, but we dont yet know the fireing method, if its mouse controlled or keyboard, i dont think that aspect is finalized. I'll run the idea by him but either way we are sticking with the on foot thing, I'm sick of scrolling shooters being associated with just vehicles, and as corny as it would be to have a dude only shoot straight its enough of a visual change that it would add for a fresher take than vehicles. Plus ever try to shoot sideways while running and holding two guns?

At 11/8/09 10:02 PM, deadspread83 wrote: What do you think about this idea before I dump a ton of work into to it?

Color it, dirty it up and explain its behavior and we have ourselves one enemy finished.

Alright guys lets get moving.

Here is the list of parts that need to be filled
1. Player
2. Player customizable gun attachments
3. Back and Fore ground objects and textures
4. Enemies/obstacles
5. Bosses
6. Effects
7. Bullet appearance
8. Level Music/ sfx
9. Maybe a super expensive custom bullet type available in store for each level? Special bullet type unlocked in store for beating a level's boss?

MAD MAX IDEA
The mad max idea is a great starting point, however I don't want it to be the only one. Post apocalypse can be taken in a multitude of ways as I said earlier, don't confine yourselves to one idea. The risk with the mad max idea is that it can quickly get too close to steam punk territory. Remember think outside the box. Run this scenario in your head --- Humanity has essentially wiped itself out by some means, there was most likely mas rioting and destruction before nearly all people died, fires will not be put out, anarchy reigns, bodies will not be disposed of, cars and everything we take for granted will become giant trash heaps and obstacles, sewers will overflow, electricity will be hard to find, gasoline harder. Just think about your daily routine, how much of it is dependent on other people, people who will no longer exists ----

POSSIBLE PLAYER/ENEMY APPEARANCE IDEA
The hang glider is cool and all, but i like it more as an enemy.
Instead I think we should have the player on foot, just to mix things up a bit. He can be in a running animation (if they implement a boost he will sprint). I am doing this because I think it opens the door for more possibilities than making this a simple vehicle shooter. Yes we can still have vehicles, but now certain obstacles become more dangerous, barbed wire wont just get run over, crazy enemies on foot can be introduced (zombies or mutants if you dont like humans). Vehicles can still be the enemy though, they would just move slower (as i mentioned earlier, gas wont be all that common after there is no one to refine it.) A hang glider is fine for a flying enemy, it makes sense (and will look badass getting shot down).

BACKGROUND IDEA
Think about what i said earlier about infrastructure falling apart, garbage and dirt everywhere, borken roads, crappy sewage ect. Get creative with this one, as it needs to look pretty since the player will be moving a bit slower.

BOSSES
4 horse men of the apocalypse seems to be a favorite so far, I want multiple people working these guys. Take these guys as literally as you want, they can be a dude on a horse for all I care, or a giant beast, just make it apparent its what they are. They are Pestilence, War, Famine, Death.

All of these ideas are changeable at this point, with the exception of the player on foot, I'm sticking to that one. ANYONE however can design any of these. I'll pick the one that best suits the need. If your player design isnt the best, it might become an enemy unit, dont worry.

Now to address some questions.

At 11/7/09 10:40 PM, Endless-Psychoticism wrote: Anyways, I'm thinking maybe there should be some sort of big transport enemy. Y'know, perhaps a landbased carrier dropping off smaller enemies. Another idea is possibly mutated, flying people as enemies.
Ooh, and for extra firepower, could we go with giant, gun-toting cockroaches?

Transport enemy, sure go for it. Cockroach gun, fucking brilliant.

At 11/7/09 11:12 PM, flashwarrior wrote: Barbed wire fences you have to shoot through to get through as bloackades and such?

Sounds good.

Barrels or drums that once destroyed leave a toxic waste material that slows you down or hurts you when you touch or go through it?

Makes sense

A tank enemy, which shoots missiles straight ahead from the tank itself, but has a man coming from the hatch shooting rapidly to the right so you are forced to go to the other side to kill it?

Don't really like it to much, would either be too easy to avoid (just go left, duh) or impossible unless its killed (which is cheating, and cheating games suck). A stationary broken tank as a turret might not be out of the question though.

At 11/8/09 12:10 AM, Maverick-Alex wrote: Pestilence

Thanks but no thanks.

At 11/8/09 01:02 AM, flashwarrior wrote: I think I may also do some sort of a background animation of crows pecking at dead bodies or something on the ground and then scattering into the air for that "everyone is dead k lol" kind of feeling.

Awesome, great ambiance.

And to answer the question about flash, I currently dont have it, but am working hard to get my hands on an affordable copy and hope to have it soon. I either draw everything by hand and then scan or photograph it in or use photoshop and artrage.

At 11/7/09 06:56 PM, kr8to wrote: My most recent work as of when this NG post was written can be seen here

Definite improvement

I believe and know first hand that in order for someone to improve they needed to do studies, there is no "I'm perfect i don't need to study" person out there.

I wouldnt say studies is the right word so much as just practice, but practice with the intention of improving. Do the same thing over and over incorrectly will never help, but doing something and attempting to fix whatever was bugging the artist will improve the work. Its important to remember styles and tastes factor in, not everyone works realistically. It does help when they knows the rules of realistic drawing, but it doesnt mean they have to have the skills to carry those out to be good artists.

Now i may be a rough critic but i only want the best out of people. Too many people here impose a facade of skill and mastery and they feel that they don't need to study, they feel they will be masters someday if the keep drawing from imagiation.

Masters no, but that might not be their goal. Plus masters at what? The term master dosent mean renaissance realism genius. Jasper Johns was considered a 'master', so was Robert Rauschenberg, neither of them did a single observational drawing in their career.

Ask any master who you look up to and view there work with amazement how they got there, they will tell you it takes PRACTICE.

And did they also tell you that simply drawing ANYTHING will cause improvement, because you can have all the knowledge in the world, but without general hand eye coordination and being comfortable with your media you wont be able to do anything. Granted if you dont apply the rules you know improvment will be slow, but you WILL improve simply by drawing. If all you do is stick figures, those sticks will be much better and more refined as time goes on just by simple repetition as you get used to the shape.

I have talked in person and online with leaders in the fine art and game art business and no less then 100% view studies as a required necessity.

You arent talking to enough people then. Ever heard of 'visionary artists'. They are artists who have no formal training and are entirely self taught. Granted a lot of them aren't exactly on par with ones with training, but you would be suprised the stuff they can do that no trained artist ever would even think of because their 'studies' wouldnt let them. Hell there are entire museums dedicated to visonary artists. The main reason why people say that you need some background training before getting anywhere is because 9/10 times those who lack it aren't good enough, or it would make having to teach them new things a bit slower. Its easier to teach someone 2 point perspective if they already know 1 point, but it dosent mean that it cant be done if they don't know.

Grab a sketchbook and a peice of paper and do studies from life, whether its people, clothing, objects, environments, hell anything.

I recommend that people focus more on the area they are aiming for when drawing from life. If they never have the intention of drawing an anatomically correct figure then dont bother drawing people. And excellent example of an artist would be our very own captain-ben, he makes no attempt at creating realistic things, but instead his focus is more on material and color interactions. If I were to tell him to do observational drawings I would say look for things that would be well suited to your medium and have intense color contrasts. Observational drawing is only beneficial if your style demands it. The reason why people use it as a starting point is because often times its a good way to get them used to a media because they dont have to worry about making things up yet. If you ever plan on doing things that are meant to have real world lighting or physics applied to them then yes, observational drawing is essential, otherwise its only recommended, but not required.

Look at art as any other subject, for example football, you can either A: be a player and screw around and just show up to high school games and not make it to college or the pro's.. or .. B: Constituently Work your ass off working out and learning, pushing yourself towards your dreams.
Thats how it works there is not other way its up to you and your commitment.

Football is a crappy analogy, because there are those who are naturally better than others, they could slack off and still be better than the kid who tries his ass off, sometimes your best just isn't good enough in sports like that. In art its somewhat similar, some people can try and try and will never get as good as someone who is just naturally gifted. That dosent mean dont try though.

As for your critiques, maybe look at the art101 critique thread to make them better. And seriously dude, you need to consider alternate styles more, photorealism isnt everyones goal.

POST APOCALYPTIC TEAM! WOOO!
(shamelessly copying some stuff from MCs thread, sue me)

We can discuss our level here although I would still say that if each team member could acquire AIM in some way or another for when we have secrets to share (ooooo secrets).

Use any media you want, but keep in mind that you may be asked to go back and redraw it or clean it up in photoshop/illustrator/flash for the final product.

Ill approve ideas and am open to many suggestions, but be warned, I will push you guys to think outside the box and will most likely ask you to redraw or fix something a million times before its game ready. I'll try to keep a running list on approved ideas and drawings.

If you are drawing something explain what it is, how it works, what bullets it uses, the more info the better. Also keep an eye on the outline for updates and application ideas. Keep in mind ours is a vertical level.

For ideas on post apocalyptic stuff, think fallout series, zombie movies, Global disaster movies (2012 anyone?), 4 Horse men of the apocalypse (possible bosses?), ect.

So far the team members are:
Myself (ornery) - AIM = ornery scotsman
angryglacier
Ani-x
DooDooMeaT - AIM = gyoungjr03
Endless-Psychoticism - AIM = lostininternets
flashwarrior - AIM = caislino
Ken10Ben
deadspread83

Get started guys, and remember, when the end comes, only cockroaches will survive.

At 11/7/09 07:28 PM, Ani-x wrote: Post Apocalyptic Team,
Any way we can converse outside of AIM?
or can i be moved to a team who uses msn if that will work?

i dont mean to be a butthead, but i cant really get AIM or trillion going.
I know most all the team uses AIM and i don't want to be inconvenient to you guys

We can figure out something, keep trying the AIM though, my sn is ornery scotsman
Once i get the post apocalyptic thread made communication will be much easier.

At 11/7/09 04:44 PM, kr8to wrote: Now im not saying your method is a failing method but just using tools and not understanding how things works is unarguably one step closer to failure.

Using tools or presets is not a failure, or lack of understanding, all it is is limiting. You can learn how to use various preset tools better and produce better results, but they are limited, think motion tween vs. FBF. Tweens are simple, easy and effective, and in the right hands can be down right amazing, but because they are a preset function there is really only so much they can do and wont work in every single case, even though their results can be just as good in a sense as FBF. Frame by frame animation is much more difficult and requires a different thought process and can do things tweens cannot, however at the same time this is limiting to it as well. The key to success would be knowing when to use each and what their capabilites are.

To get away from metaphors tween = gradient tool, FBF = hand shading. A gradient can be used properly to make incredibly snazzy shading, but it will always have to deal with the constant even distribution of light to dark, which can make surfaces look manufactured, where as shading by hand (or mouse or tablet) will never quite get the consistant perfection of shade transition that a gradient gives, but often will have more life in it.

See what I'm saying? The tool is rarely the problem, its the artist and their desire to try out what that tool is really capable of.

EiTS are an amazing band, glad to see you like them.

I would also then recommend for you
This Will Destroy You
Red Sparowes
God is an Astronaut
Caspian
Friends of Dean Martinez
The Six Parts Seven

I got others if those work for you as well.

I always found promise rings to be a good way to shut a bitch up.

"Oh sweety lets get married"
"uhhh no thanks babe, not yet"
"But why? Dont you love me?"
"Yeah sure"
"Then lets get engaged, we can have the wedding when you are ready."
"No thats retarded"
"WHY DONT YOU LOVE ME!"
"Uhhh here have this ring, its a promise that has no legal binding that I might some day marry you"
"OOOOOOO"
"yeah i made it out of dental floss"
"I love you sweetie, lets do anal now"

POST APOCALYPTIC TEAM
Get on AIM today troops, we gots shite to disscuss.

Have you ever looked at a skeleton?

Or were you not even making a faintest attempt at being remotely realistic?

At 11/7/09 01:14 PM, Scourger9 wrote: *This post is now dead*

Dont give up so soon. I didn't realize that you were talking about strictly digital shading, which that tutorial leaves out. From a technical standpoint there is little physical difference between real shading and digital shading, both work through the idea of layers.

If you are shading in photoshop work with low opacity (transparency in flash) and layer up. This make it easier than trying to pick the next darker or lighter color each time you want to change your shade. i personally find after the layering effect is created that blending or blurring a tiny bit where any strong edges within the shade are makes for a nice touch, although many digital artists frown upon that because it can make a drawing look amateurish.

Take the principles of that tutorial I linked, 3 shades make a curve, reflected light, contrast, ect. and apply it to your digital pieces. As for physically drawing it, like i said, work in faint layers ontop of each other so that the more layers showing through the darker the area is.

At 11/6/09 10:44 PM, BlackmarketKraig wrote: Hey all, I'm liking a lot of what I'm seeing! =]

deadspread83 is interested in joining the project. I'm sure one of the teams would be more than happy to take him on. I was thinking the post apocalyptic or cyberpunk team might want another brain on board. Are you guys game?

We could definetly use him on the post apocalyptic front, send him our way. And so far 3 people are in agreement that i am team leader on our team.

Figure i should revive this thing since I'm starting more of these and i always like documenting my process (even though i think people who make art that is solely process based are idiots) and because with my recent large ones that I didn't document people seem to have forgotten just how big these things are.

For this one ill go more into my technique and method where as the other ones were just "here is a pic, here is a more developed one".

Hopefully this one will be educational for the lot of you.

The Purpose
First I'm gonna say that I'm doing these things for my senior thesis BFA degree. The subject I'm focusing on is isolation and loneliness through the use of NO background. I have nothing against backgrounds, I use them in other works, but these ones are intentionally blank and minimal because the composition depends on the figure to activate the empty space in a way that conveys the isolation. At no point should these figures feel "floating" or arbitrarily placed.

The Photos
I start each drawing by taking a bunch of reference pictures of either myself or which ever model I can get my hands on. I have the pose in mind and the general composition before I even take the pic, but often times based on other poses the model does I change the idea. After having the pics i chose the one who's pose i like best, this is not necessarily the one that i like the details of though. Often times other poses have better lighting or details so i use those pics to get the lighting and details i want for the final piece. In each drawing i use maybe 15 or so different reference photos

Laying It Out
Once i have all the photos I want I do a rough grid on the pose photo around the figure, then generally I multiply that grid by 6 or so and do a similar grid on the paper. I do this so that I see how much of the page will be occupied figure and how much will be blank space. This process can take up to 2 hours of just placing the grid in the place that feels right on the page. the grid is not to scale so drawing from it would be pointless, i just use it as a sort of compositional tool.

Drawing
Once I have my boundary grid in place i start by fitting the figure inside of it with a very faint outline of the general shape, this outline will be altered and changed drastically throughout the drawing as more of the figure gets filled in, but for now it gives me a sense of scale and where i am working.
I then pic out the darkest part of the drawing and start establishing that dark so that i know not do do any other places to that intensity. More details on this process will be mentioned as the drawing develops.
Drawing in progress

Materials
I use powdered graphite for the sake of speed, ideally I would do the whole thing in pencil but due to the deadlines I have to meet for each one I have to use the powder. Its not as controlled as pencil but I am definitely getting more and more comfortable with it. I apply it using Q-tips and cotton balls and then erase any areas that got too dark or went over the line wanted. It has to stay in some sort of container because grabbing it straight from the jar picks up to much, when you have some sort of plate to put it in first you can control how much powder you pick up each time. I found a metal Ms. Fields cookie tin to be ideal for this.
Photo of graphite (in plate container)
Photo of other utensils

Here is a shot of a size comparison for this one, keep in mind I'm 6'2'' and that board is slanted (the board is 7 feet tall) so it looks a bit shorter than it really is.

On the subject of DA and feeling inadequate I just came across this guys stuff and cried myself in a fetal position for 3 hours.

DA is a giant cesspool of shit, but every so often you find people who you have to wonder what the hell they are even doing associating themselves with that site.

At 11/6/09 12:47 PM, BlackmarketKraig wrote:

At 11/5/09 11:17 PM, ornery wrote: What are the leaders duties?

Directing the artists, vetoing poor ideas, making final decisions and being responsible for their team. He or she would be telling each artist who needs to be doing what, the more hands on the better. If someone isn't pulling their weight it would be up to the team leader to tell them to get it in gear or leave, that kind of stuff.

Ahh good, i was worried it was something along the lines of collecting and assembling all the work into a flash file to give to the programmers. So in that case I nominate myself for post apocalyptic leader.

On a related note though, what exactly will artists be giving the programmers, it would be helpful if they gave us file types, sizes for backgrounds ect. Cuz we can concept sketch until the cows come home, but what finished files would they need in order to put a finished piece in. I know animations require more than single frame drawings most of the time, so if the programer could give us an idea as to how many views of a single piece we need that would help.

This might help you out.

What are the leaders duties?

And for the post apocalyptic group, if i see one single spaceship I'm breaking some arms.

At 11/4/09 09:29 PM, FatKidWitAJetPak wrote: I am about to do my first lithograph where I carve some designs into a wooden type material and use it to make a crazy cool textureized background.

I think you mean woodcut, not lithograph. Also a great little trick I learned in the small amount of monoprinting I did was modeling glue, or really any glue for that matter, you can draw with it in big globs and it makes for some pretty nifty shapes and textures when you ink it (after it dries of course)

Baseball, because then annoying white parents would stop breeding assholes in the little leagues.

Basketball, black people would have one less shitty thing to focus on and maybe start paying more attention to bettering themselves instead of using "I dont need school, ill just become a rapper/football/basketball player"

O_O did i just go there?

At 11/2/09 06:16 AM, Alex12345269 wrote: It's a movie.

I know ive had it reserved on my netflix queue for about 2 years and have been impatiently waiting for the damn thing to come out anywhere....

Tonight on tap we have a double dose of our imported MST3K....
Ingredients:
Master Ninja 1
Master Ninja 2

Come and get it

Coil walkthrough hope it helps.

Sometimes trying to view flash in popup mode works better than straight on the page viewing.

*Sits back, grabs popcorn, waits for whiny kids to show up en mass.*
"This is gonna be good"

and to the OP, holy shit that's fucked up

At 10/29/09 02:09 PM, Fleshlight wrote: I don't like your shading. It doesn't help me understand the form of the body.
The anatomy is alright, but these postures are kind of unnatural looking.

acutallly the anatomy is way off. The heads are tiny, arms and legs dont really have form to them. You are relying to heavily on the shadow to try to get body form across which isnt good because the shadows seem more arbitrarily placed than really planned or observed.

This thread is making me laugh, the amount of double standards and ignorance is astronomical, if it were a numerical value it would be over 900.....(see what i did there)

First, Just because you have sex, dosent mean you will get pregnant or catch a disease, health class gives you the worst possible scenarios so that if it does happen you cant say you didnt know. Chances are she is on birth control pills or some other form, and as someone suggested most likely uses condoms for random encounters. I'm not saying that she has never gotten something, or wont catch something down the line, but being somewhat intelligent she probably knows the risks and that if she takes off a dudes pants and sees an army of bugs flying everywhere or massive sores, she might think twice about that one.

Second, 900 different guys is impressive, normally porn stars are the only ones who can pull that off. However she is one girl who finally realized what guys have been saying all along, as a semi attractive girl all she needs to do is walk up to a guy say "hi lets go fuck" and she can get laid. If the world worked that way for both genders there are few guys out there who would have numbers under 900.

Third, assume the following hypothetical, 900 guys, fucking each guy once (which isnt the case) would equal sex 900 times. Those of you with long term girlfriends, how many times have you fucked? Is she still tight? Does she know what kegals are? Get where im going with this?

Fourth and final , a chick who bangs 900 dudes in fine in my book, just as a dude who bangs 900 chicks is golden. Most of you are probably just jealous that one of those wasnt you.

Awww what, no Balitmore love?