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Funny about your sig. This case reminded me of the one where the lady sued mcdonalds beacuse she didnt know that the coffee was hot. She won and now mcdonalds has labels exclaiming such. Will these guys win? no. you already have to be 21 to gamble for just such a reason. At least i hope these guys lose. What a bunch of whiney bitches to want their money back after wasting at such a pointless past time.

Her ideals alone are reason enough not to pick Mccain for president. She is ten times as conservitve as him. And grossly uninformed on key topics.

Proof She is a sick person

most of it is pretty interesting. non of it will work. but deffinetly an well thought out expression of your personal belifs. One problem though is that it has been proven that at a psycological level if you start doing drugs at an adolesent-teen stage you will frequently revert back to that age. never growing up in a sense. especially when under the influence of said drug. now im not sayin pot does such but its deffinetly a gateway drug. and i personally have done enough acid that i never want my kids to do it. most of the things you listed are among the adult line of life beacuse they are true responsibilties. they tried to lower the drinking age in the 70s. didnt work out.

At 9/13/08 12:34 AM, adrshepard wrote:

At 9/12/08 08:34 PM, Nitroglys wrote: I didnt say their was a gene. But there is a religon. One that 90% of the region follow devoutly. and it may be a small percent who are active jihadist, but there are so many others flooding in from other countries. And these people are willing to die for their cause.

So our actions cause terrorism because of the suffering we inflict, yet according to you the terrorists stem not from the people we hurt, but from those entirely uninvolved who decide to become militant. I agree. Let's not use violence, let's just make sure that every person in the world always gets his information in a way that is objective about US policies.

Yes and no. Yes just our pressence there is the reason we are getting attacked. This could be solved by a graduale withdrawl. No the people we hurt have no connection to the people who feed the anti-american movement. We are not fighting a formatable enemy. We cant sight a victory in one location, and push the enemy back. There are no front lines, its all one broken arrown in other words. We can't win in one place and call it ours, cells will just stem up and take root in that town. Causing hundreds of minute attacks and road side bombs. How do you fight a road side bomb. Thats the kind of war we are fighting.

Probably, killing some innocent people. or taking a few of our guys down with him. or her. Did you hear about that girl they found at the security check point with a bomb strapped to her chest. She said that she was forced somehow to take it across town, but they said she wouldnt be blown up. THese guys are sick, stop at nothing.

Yeah, and at the moment they are being chased out of Iraq.

With more just crossing the border. You can't simply say they are being chased out. Sure we are attacking them and killing them, but they'll never leave. There will always be someone to fight, especially on their own soil. (speaking in terms of middle east not iraqi, and we are the outside force)

Um. Yes we are In a Recession.

Show me the sustained economic contraction, then.

What were all those links for? Please show me some substantal evidence otherwise

No, but you can't say that the lives of the troops were worth it.. Especially if you cannot clearly define their reason for dying.

Their reason for dying is because they enlisted in an organization that makes people into tools of the state. The state decided that it was necessary to fight in Iraq. So, they all went. A few of them have died. That's it.

Ya, its their fault for dying in an unjust war. im sure they were happy. How does enlisting deem them expendable.

Whether you want to say these deaths were "worth" it is entirely subjective. The only certain thing is that if we waver in our resolve or abandon our objective, those lives will have been wasted.

But i commend you to go out and find 5 soliders who say after they got shot, wounded, or immobilzed by the war and ask them if it is worth it to them.

Again, the army is not the organization for them if they only wish to fight in wars whose purpose they agree with.

Huh, such wasn't thought in meaningful wars such as WWII. People were glad to enlist as their patriotic duty. But not this war. This is a shameful war stinking to high heaven of corruption.

At 9/12/08 08:47 PM, aninjaman wrote:

You think soldiers in the past never suffered from PTSD and managed fine its just that this generation of soldiers are just pussies... Have you ever seen a poor, homeless, and crazy vietnam vet begging for change? That what you get when PTSD goes untreated.

I don't think they are pussies, I just think its not a wise use of resources. Past wars have been fought and veterans have suffered with undiagnosed PTSD, yet there were no crippling problems facing the country because of it. There was no epidemic of psychotic illnesses that destroyed the labor force after WWII. History has shown that societies can tolerate it. Why not tolerate it now?

Many are not but our actions do cause terrorists. The longer we stay more insurgents will come up to fight th e American occupation they view as evil.

Which explains why attacks on US soldiers are way down, and how the worst threat to Iraq was sectarian violence. Hmm, they don't seem to be united against us.

So you're to smart to enlist in a war you so religiously support? The out of shape thing? Get off your lazy ass. Also with the army lowering recruitment standards and letting in people like criminals I think unless your morbidly obese they will let you in. To all you young republicans who support the war. You are not helping by not enlisting and instead sitting on your asses debating the war over the internet.

I'm sorry, I thought I lived in America, where I actually have a choice in what I want to do with my life? If the country needs me, there will be a draft, and I will go and fight. I will hate every minute of it, but I will do it because it's my duty as a citizen.

This whole "why don't you enlist" bs is simply a tactic anti-war people use to redirect the argument away from ideas and towards personal attacks.

Ya, personal attack against your personal beliefs. And its not even an attack really, just a change in perspective.

3. Life-saving is not an end in itself. Some things are worth dying for, some things are worth risking lives for. Giving the Iraqis support now is one of those, as 5 years of effort has been put into getting rid of an unstable influence and building an allied state.

If it is worth dying for then why don't you enlist? Oh I forgot, its only worth dying for if you are poor and from the inner city or the country not for people with college diplomas and job prospects like you

Tell me, how should my opinion change if I enlisted and served in Iraq? Would I get the "real" picture? Of course not. I could tell you about what an average Iraqi is like, what we do on patrols, what combat is like, etc. Anything broader in scope than that and I'm almost as ignorant as anyone else, save for what gossip I hear from others.

Umm. Lets see. you would be able to tell me if we are doing a good job there. If you, after perosnal experience, feel that we belonged there. If you believe we are welcomed as saviors to the land. O. and if you think the battle can be won. I bet if you did find the inner motavation to support the war personally you would quickly find it isnt as romantic as you thought. That all that is instore for the near future of that area is unstability. Afghanistan after the russian withdrawl is a great example. There will be a great struggle for power. And knowing that countries religous tendencies, if they are given any free chance to act as a country they will be and Islamic Republic. Like so many other nations in the middle east. Democracy is hard to flourish in such a state. Especially when everyone in any form of power in the region, religous or political, hates us. Its an unneccesary uphill battle.

Debate the issues on an intellectual and abstract level, bud, or shut it.

Ha, Ha. coming from the guy who would deny the PTSD paitents treatment. Real sensitive to key intellectual topics.

I think the less experience in politics you have, the less chance of being corrupt. Its only a matter of time before the lobbyist get to you. So, since when do you have to have a lifetime of experience to run the country. Bush did it only being the gonvener of texas. given thats not a very good example. Clinton was only a govener before hand too. Its not experience, but knowlege and his foreplan. I like what his intentions are, and no attack on his experience is gonna change that.

This is bad. Who know what lies will be told to us now about them in order to brain wash us into another war.

At 9/12/08 06:22 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 9/12/08 04:28 PM, Nitroglys wrote: I'll admit it is pretty liberal, but think about all the veterans with disabilites, mental problems, rebuilding what we deystroyed. How much money is going to rebuild? Its gonna cost alot.

The trick there is to stop giving away billions for PTSD. Soldiers throughout history have managed before it was diagnosed, I don't see why modern soldiers should be any different. I'd have to see the exact amount spent on this before I make any firm judgment though. If it's only a few billion, then why not?

Wow. That is big words coming from someone who has never experienced battle before. Who do you think you are telling these people they aren't sick. You are sick for thinking such. Wow. i really cant believe you said that. But it has been around forever, Just undiagnosed. Hell in WW1 they only treated the extreme cases. Its called shellshock.

How many more must die before we realize that we can't win. not when we are fighting every extremist group in the entire middle east. We have given a reason for so many Jihadist to go, fight, and die for their cause. We are creating our own problem. Terrorism is an undefeatable enemy. end of story.

Except you're making the mistake of believing there's some sort of Jihadist gene in all Muslims that is triggered by everything we do. Believe it or not, there aren't that many terrorists in Iraq. There aren't even that many insurgents, considering the country's size. Most people aren't despondent, living on the edge, one push away from joining Al-Qaida.

I didnt say their was a gene. But there is a religon. One that 90% of the region follow devoutly. and it may be a small percent who are active jihadist, but there are so many others flooding in from other countries. And these people are willing to die for their cause. That alone is dishearting. This has never been a conventional war. Dont you remember when the Iraqi gaurd all surrendered. Brigade after brigade. That was iraqis. now we have terrorist pouring in from every middle eastern country. Way more support than we have anymore.

I say let them join, see where it gets them.

Probably, killing some innocent people. or taking a few of our guys down with him. or her. Did you hear about that girl they found at the security check point with a bomb strapped to her chest. She said that she was forced somehow to take it across town, but they said she wouldnt be blown up. THese guys are sick, stop at nothing.

Im not saying that the war alone is the reason for our reccession(which we are in one), but it ceartinly isnt helping. too much money for such a little cause. Its another Vietnam. We cant win, and throwing money and lives at it won't solve the problem. Grow up and admit that the war is pointless, if not I dare you to sign up and join the army right now. If you dont you are a hypocrit. Now go. Fight for what you believe in. I have a friend shipping out in November. I sure hope Obama gets into office so his life can be spared. Its not worth it. None of it is.

1. We aren't in what is traditionally defined as a recession. If you want to use your own special definition, keep it to yourself.

Um. Yes we are In a Recession.
Most everyone knows it.
And its so bad it might hurt other countries.

2. One doesn't have to enlist to support the war. There was no draft; no one is dodging any responsibility by staying home. I would join the military, except that I have a college education bought and paid for, good job prospects, and I'm in terrible shape.

No, but you can't say that the lives of the troops were worth it.. Especially if you cannot clearly define their reason for dying.
Exactly, You can say these people are worth to die beacuse you have never experience the struggle to survive. You've had everything handed to you. You have to admit that there are a majority of people in the army that were low income and had few choices in life. Just beacuse they are low income doesn't sentence them to die for some profiteering campaign.

3. Life-saving is not an end in itself. Some things are worth dying for, some things are worth risking lives for. Giving the Iraqis support now is one of those, as 5 years of effort has been put into getting rid of an unstable influence and building an allied state.

Five wasted years, but ya, i'll admit it would be irresponsible of us to abruptly leave now. A pull out force maybe. Residule troops, i think thats the plan Obama is pushing. And i bet once we withrawl these people will start to rebuild. They've been doing it for years. We just need to realise that our pressence there is the reason we are getting there. A catch 22, why do you fight, when you know that you are fighting beacuse they just want you to move. And whats wrong with that. They obviously hate us, and we arent gonna change that by killing them. So why not withrawl, slowly?

But i commend you to go out and find 5 soliders who say after they got shot, wounded, or immobilzed by the war and ask them if it is worth it to them.

If only the dead could talk.

At 9/9/08 07:54 PM, adrshepard wrote: That's a pretty stacked editorial you cite there. Notice how it doesn't say how over what period of time that 1 trillion dollars will be paid. Or about where the other 2 trillion dollars in his figure comes from. If he can't explain it to you simply in an editorial, presumably implying that you have to read (and buy) his book to find out, that should be a danger sign. Add that to the fact that this 3 trillion dollar figure is met not by government estimates, but by two liberals and former Clinton advisors, and it's a wonder why you thought to bring it up at all.

I'll admit it is pretty liberal, but think about all the veterans with disabilites, mental problems, rebuilding what we deystroyed. How much money is going to rebuild? Its gonna cost alot.

Oh wait, it isn't. You're a short-sighted liberal.

What are you? A money bags conservitive?

You want good things to come out of Iraq after only 5 or so years? What in the hell would you expect You obviously aren't including the fact that we got rid of a heinous and troublesome dictator, whose absence is certainly going to contribute to long-run regional stability. You have an entire nation of angry Muslims who have learned that supporting terrorists only makes things worse. You have a ready-made ally and staging point for future US operations in the Middle East, you have tons of military experience, lessons in strategy, and advances in technology brought about by the demands of the battlefield, and you have a bunch of liberals showing exactly where they stand: for a humiliated and weakened America.

I would expect something good to come out of it when we considered mission accomplished atleast. And do you really feel safer now that saddam is gone? DId he really have any intentions on harming American citizens? Playing the worlds police force is costing us too much. Not just in money but in human life. How many more must die before we realize that we can't win. not when we are fighting every extremist group in the entire middle east. We have given a reason for so many Jihadist to go, fight, and die for their cause. We are creating our own problem. Terrorism is an undefeatable enemy. end of story.

"But adrshepard, we ARE humiliated and weakened"
Bull-f*cking shit! We've lost a negligible portion of the workforce, the economy is still growing, and the budget will only be a problem if we continue the entitlement and handout policies of democrats (nearly half of non-military spending is healthcare and social security for the economic and social deadweights and minimal contributors). This is America. Any domestic fiscal or economic problem you can imagine will be overcome and dealt with over the course of 10 or so years without major suffering. After that we come out stronger and wiser.

You seem ceartin, almost hoping for another depression. Im not saying that the war alone is the reason for our reccession(which we are in one), but it ceartinly isnt helping. too much money for such a little cause. Its another Vietnam. We cant win, and throwing money and lives at it won't solve the problem. Grow up and admit that the war is pointless, if not I dare you to sign up and join the army right now. If you dont you are a hypocrit. Now go. Fight for what you believe in. I have a friend shipping out in November. I sure hope Obama gets into office so his life can be spared. Its not worth it. None of it is.

Aborition is the right of a woman. No one can tell her what to do with her own body or whatever is in it until that thing comes out. If you dont feel capable of bringing anonther human being into this world then you shouldn't. We are having a population, poverty, and hunger crisis as is. And if it is murder that is that woman and the father's own problem. they will have to appear before god with their sins layed out before them. Who are we to try and prevent them from damnation.

At 9/11/08 02:07 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: I've utterly blown your feeble mind.

You have done nothing for about 2 posts. What are you even talking about?

"Cars going in and out, nobody having a job, uncut grass... ALL SIGNS OF A CRACK HOUSE WHY DIDN'T THE COPS DO THEM TOO?!?!"

Yes, Too many people in a house is a threat to the community as a whole. And from the way that it sounds the cops were opperating on an equal or lesser amount of info to raid the kids than what was presented by the crack house. You tell me which is worse. And i compel you to find me a link proving the cops had decent information to raid these houses at random.

Seriously dude, you just took the words of the people arrested and tried to apply the social injustice to the neighbors who didn't get raided.

wrong, you are so so so wrong.

They didn't get raided because there wasn't any information of wrongdoing..... until the people next door got arrested, then they're all concerned about the public at large.

The neighbors said they complained to police. PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING ABOUT IT.

You are ranting and twisting words my friend. The cops raided because they had an agenda to push, and didnt raid the crackhouse beacuse they could care less. Answer my question, why didnt they raid the crack house? That is deffinetaly more of a threat than the kids turned out to be.

It's funny, because you turn your argument in on itself, suggesting the cops raid another house based on the information the people they arrested gave.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. It was the neighbors doing the accusations. Please learn how to read. And i think the neighbors to a crackhouse would know. Im not suggesting they raid them on a whim, but why didnt they spend our hard earned tax dollars on raiding the crackhouse which is far more dangerous than the house they did raid.

How dumb is that?

At 9/10/08 11:41 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

You crazy bastard. Im staying away from you. With that attitude on a public forum they will be knocking your door down. Ha. You really are crazy though. Killin cops. I thought you were deffending these guys. now you wanna kill them. Just crazy. and hypocritical.

I think I win.

Just beacuse you found someone with similar tastes and tendancies doesnt mean you win.
In fact, you have incredibly failed to rebut.

If we wanna take this back to third grade. I win :p

At 9/10/08 05:27 PM, AreYouSure wrote:

HA!!! liar. the article said normal paint cans.

....and?

I bet you have paint in your garage too. What makes it a crime to have paint in your garage?

And it is against fire code, but

Yeah, those fire codes aren't important.

Not when they are used like that. You really think they were worried about that? They just wanna peg these kids for something. Im sure they think as carelessly about these people as you. Im sure they would love to see these innocent people burn.

the lack fo true civic duty right across the street is the best part. A crack house.

Proof?

Ya. im sure you wouldnt notice if a crack house was right next to you. The signs are kind of simple. Cars moving in and out, blatant disregard for the house and yard(which they noted), and no one having a job. You of all people should know sterotypes. Its how you function socially.

Don't bother. The people know it's a crack house but they don't care. Look how they're bitching about their own civil rights when they've got rot and disease allegedly living 20 paces away.

For one, what are typical citizens supposed to do about it. If you read the article it says they were complaining. and second, how does the fact that a crack house is around do with their own civil rights? you confuse me foo.

These people don't deserve the right to illegally assemble inside a fire hazard, as much as it would pleasure me to watch them burn.

Why? Beside the fact that its a fire hazard. You can have that many people over. Why cant they gather there? Why did their door get broken down instead of the crack houses?

And the protesting kids were arrested. You cant even grow your grass too long in two weeks of moving in to a house. how could they have done anything of any real damage to get their house colsed down by the city?

It's all about how you communicate with the city. They can be very lenient in some cases. Others like amassing illegally before the national convention they don't really have the patience for looking the other way.

They should. They had every right to assemble before the convention. In fact they did. What the cops did was pre-empt on the slight possibility that the protest would turn violent. And it made them look like asses. Innocent people were harmed and sent to jail on trumped up charges. I'll say it again. Do you call that justice???

Because the city would've been sued broadside if they had info of potential rioteering and someone was hurt or robbed.

No, they wouldn't. They would take the person who hurt them to court and they will be given their right of due process of law. When you try to battle crime before it happens is when it gets messy.

I think the people who were arrested felt spoiled because the lacksadaisical treatment the city usually gives it's denizens wasn't anything like the treatment the cities jointly dished out before the largest convention this state has ever seen.

You are right. The city over stepped itself and boundries.

Like it is said in the article you can make anything into a molotov.

No you can't.

Yes, you can. Bottle. Gas. Rag. I have all of those things in my garage. I guess im a terrorist.

You being a drunk could recognize the fact that people their age like to drink, and probably had beer bottles.

Yeah.

Yes in deedy.

OMG. What are those people thinking? Just blatant diregard for the law having those things around. And why would they confiscate their electronics?

Probably was an electrical code violation. Another fire hazard.

Dont speculate what you dont know. You make a fool out of yourself.

lol the cops should've let em burn.

You are sick. Human life means nothing to you. You deserve neither liberties or security.

The article is lacking.

You wait till they break in your door.

I'll have clips of 230gr hollowpoint .45s to welcome 'em.

You crazy bastard. Im staying away from you. With that attitude on a public forum they will be knocking your door down. Ha. You really are crazy though. Killin cops. I thought you were deffending these guys. now you wanna kill them. Just crazy. and hypocritical.

"Like a terrorist."

They got treated in such a manner. As if they were committing capital treason. How is that justice?

They weren't executed.

Is that what it takes to make you happy?

That's what happens to traitors.

Google the rosenbergs.

So. You are calling these people exercising their right to assemble traitors? Confusion yet again.

LolfearmongerconspiracytheoriesABOUND

Just admit you hate America and all the rights and liberites we have.

I do.

Fascist scum

Most people understand law and order and obey the rules.

You just need to learn what rules are.

And i thought most knew the constitution, but you proved me wrong.

You'd side with Breyer on the 2nd.

I'd suck Stevens' dick if he asked nicely.

I bet you would. I bet you would...

At 9/10/08 04:59 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Read this and tell me what you think. Do it for yourself.

I'm thinking a few things. First, the lack of any law enforcement spokesmen in the article and second that the only person arrested was the homeowner sleeping 30 people in the attic. I'm also struck that the police felt it necessary to remove all their molotov-making gear along with the cans of spraypaint from the garage.

You know its not like they didnt have a chance. they made a statement that the reasons for the closure of the house would be posted that night. You think they held a press confrence for this shit day of? You know all about the law in cops, you know that they dont make statements to the press until they have everything straightened out.

HA!!! liar. the article said normal paint cans. And it is against fire code, but the lack fo true civic duty right across the street is the best part. A crack house. And the protesting kids were arrested. You cant even grow your grass too long in two weeks of moving in to a house. how could they have done anything of any real damage to get their house colsed down by the city? Like it is said in the article you can make anything into a molotov. You being a drunk could recognize the fact that people their age like to drink, and probably had beer bottles. OMG. What are those people thinking? Just blatant diregard for the law having those things around. And why would they confiscate their electronics?

The article is lacking.

It's against the law to sleep that many people in your attic.. something about fire codes and safety hazards I'm sure.

I'm still not broken-hearted over the police actions though.

You wait till they break in your door.

"Like a terrorist."

They got treated in such a manner. As if they were committing capital treason. How is that justice?

They weren't executed.

Is that what it takes to make you happy?

LolfearmongerconspiracytheoriesABOUND

Just admit you hate America and all the rights and liberites we have.

I do.

Fascist scum

Most people understand law and order and obey the rules.

You just need to learn what rules are.

And i thought most knew the constitution, but you proved me wrong.

At 9/10/08 03:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Meh, I asked what bahavior you deemed unconstitutionally sound and you used four posts to say the equivalent of nothing whatsoever.

Please. Read this and tell me what you think. Do it for yourself.

"Like a terrorist."

They got treated in such a manner. As if they were committing capital treason. How is that justice?

LolfearmongerconspiracytheoriesABOUND

Just admit you hate America and all the rights and liberites we have.

Fascist scum

At 9/9/08 10:29 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Because nobody was stepped on by law enforcement in such a way where Americans' civil rights were unjustly violated.

Seriously dude, I'm not even shitting you.

No way man. It is all so much clearer. I see. A world where the Gestapo reigns free. Free to kick in every door deemed suspicious. Without a case built up against them, or even valid evidence and a warrant that shows up 2 hours later. Hell. maybe if you had your way we would just do away with warrants. Fuckin beuracracy just holding up the cops from doin their jobs. Maybe we should have every person's political oppinion stitched into their clothes so everyone knows where everyone stands. Maybe big yellow stars would be nice, make it easier to pick out when they are in a public place. Yes. Maybe in LazyDrunks perfect world.

and oh yeah. who you callin a kid? what an attack. ha.

At 9/9/08 06:43 AM, Firesolved wrote:

How are we paying for it? Financially? How many times do people have to say "We use less than 22% of our national funding towards the war effort? How bout you start boycotting social security, the real drain on our economy? Oh wait lemme answer for you: "Oh no social security is good. It lets my old as balls grandpa get by barely and it isnt killing young men in Iraq and Afghaniland." Pffft...

You sad sad man. What better things could all these billions of dollars. 315 billion to date. That to me is too god damn much to pay for a failure. and its not lookin any better. Maybe 3 trillion when its done with.Too much. For what? Give me five good things that came out of this. No three. I think 315 billion is worth three good reasons for the war. Dont you?

At 9/9/08 10:30 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: From your link: "Police claimed they were investigating reports of anarchists holding hostages in the building. Members of I-Witness Video accuse the police of blatant harassment and of using the bogus hostage claim to seek entry to their office."

But hey, let's villainize the local police as if they didn't have the best for the general public in mind.

Kids shouldn't have real opinions, good thing this is newgrounds.

Nice double post. But antics aside. Like i said before. It isnt the police fault. Im just saying, like you just quoted, The police were acting on false information. Innocent people got stepped on. How can you just say that is ok?

At 9/9/08 04:43 PM, GallitoMix wrote:

Well, it is a matter of choice. Either Obama wins and goes with a pacifist politics which may allow other nations to build up, or McCain wins and is a bit more aggressive and other nations don't get to build up as much.

Build up what????

HHHmmm.... another Cuba crisis maybe. I think /\ he is right. If Obama does get elected there is a strong chance they wouldnt get bothered. But completely opposite on the other hand. You know Mccain is gonna keep most of bush's adversaries. Chavez is a big one. And how classic. Russia getting involved. This has bad war movie written all over it.

They did make a connection. But that wasn't the entire reasons we had to go to war.

And NOW there is alot of proof we were wrong.

So no. We were never justified to be there. It was wrong and we fucked up bad. Now we are paying for it.

At 9/7/08 12:49 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

You need to be more specific. I don't understand what you mean when you say, "handled like a terrorist."

You know. people who weren't terrorists but got lumped together with them beacuse it was convienant. Whats the word im lookin for to describe them...oh yes. Innocent.

Not the one who were caught with the garden utensils, but teh ones like iwitness news who were just having the wrong opinion in the wrong place. That is unconstitutional.

Do you mean the people who stayed assembled outside the RNC after their permit to protest expired? The police arrested two press corps members who stayed and covered the illegal protest and are charging them as we speak. The argument for their arrest was that the protest stragglers were sticking around because the press was sticking around waiting for the story of protesters who stuck around after their protest transcended legal protection and became something else.

No this iwitness news. Wrong again.

The raids were prejudiced against a ceartin group of people. and although they did find some unrulely ones, they also found a whole bunch of non-violent and innocent people.

What's your point?

What happened to freedom of speech you fascist.

i mean they raided Food not bombs a group that fights for the money spent on bombs could feed the world. and i couldnt find an exact number of arrested but every stat i found was under 10. Compared to hundreds who were harrassed.

That's life, kiddo. If you expect to never witness somebody being arrested for a felony, you're living in a bubblegum cottoncandy world. Being detained =/= arrested and charged. You see harrassment, yet acknowledge the fact that real troublemakers had broken into your "mostly peaceful" gathering of "mostly pacifist" protesters.

Please, be more specific. Im talking about a house/shelter trying to feed the hungry that got its doors broke down and tenants harrassed just beacuse they are leftist, outspoken, critics of the war.
Didnt say i would never see people get arrested for a felony(which no one in this house did). but i never thought i would see someone get arrested and not charged when they went to this level of activity(in case you arent able to follow the raids). Tax dollars well spent, hopefully, replacing the doors and paying the cops. for very few arrests.

Yeah, it's not really entrapment though if your undercover agents sit through an RNCWC meeting where the leaders describe how to combat riot police with makeshift weaponry and witty slogans.

What leaders? What meeting? please give me proof of such an incident and how such pertains to every protest group in the city. PLEASE!

Your appeal to emotions are triggering the wrong ones in me :)

You dirty boy.

I believe many people were, and I usually side against law enforcement when the going gets gray. How you could believe otherwise is a testament to both your ignorance of the facts and your inability to make rational conclusions.

Touche, its hard to fight against something that is intrusted to service and protect. But maybe thats why i fight for the underdog when they are stepped on by these people in power. Im not Saying the cops themselves are to blame. just the ones who authorized the raids. You HAVE to admit there were innocent people involved and abused by the raids. And if you think that is ok, then you should refer to the Franklin quote i had a few posts ago.
And ouch. That attack on my credibilty really hurt. You got me right here*points to heart*. I thought we had something.

Nothing would have been different if they went on or not.

BULLSHIT.

You're done.

Prove me Wrong. Its just a hypothesis.

Whats it matter, the police obviously suck at there job beacuse they still rioted. It was a big failure.

Typical liberal.

So what? They didnt riot? They did. And thats exactly what the cops were trying to prevent. FAILURE.

More Info on the little guys.

At 9/6/08 11:47 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

These people were raided, under legal limits prescribed by the Constitution and the Supreme Court on Search and Siezure, were found with items and substances that would imply criminal activity and add reasonable cause for the actions of the cops.

Honestly, what are you complaining about? That you don't like the laws that are in place that the cops followed to the T, or do you just like to rebel with no reason?

This was simply one stupid splinter group that gives the vast majority of protesters that did it peacefully and in an organised manner a bad name.

Im complaining about the many other people who were targeted and handled like terrorist simply beacuse they were activist groups. Not the one who were caught with the garden utensils, but teh ones like iwitness news who were just having the wrong opinion in the wrong place. That is unconstitutional. The raids were prejudiced against a ceartin group of people. and although they did find some unrulely ones, they also found a whole bunch of non-violent and innocent people. i mean they raided Food not bombs a group that fights for the money spent on bombs could feed the world. and i couldnt find an exact number of arrested but every stat i found was under 10. Compared to hundreds who were harrassed. So what that cops followed the rules, the "credentials" and "evidence" used was bullshit. You can get any warrant signed if you say they are suspected of terrorism thanks to the patriot act. What the police did was completely legal, that is what pisses me off. I believe not a singel person was saved in the raids. Nothing would have been different if they went on or not. Whats it matter, the police obviously suck at there job beacuse they still rioted. It was a big failure.

At 9/6/08 10:52 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 9/6/08 10:46 PM, Nitroglys wrote:

At 9/6/08 07:06 PM, AreYouSure wrote:

GIVE ME A FUCKING LINK TO SUPPORT YOUR GOD DAMN STATEMENTS. EITHER DO SO OR STFU BEACUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT KNOW HOW TO DEBATE.

I'm saying cops arrested troublemakers. You're saying they harrassed the public. Prove it. I've proven that instigators and terrorists were apprehended. You've chosen to remain an ignorant fool. The Star Tribune even carried another scathing article directed at non-resident troublemakers.

If you're too lazy to find info for yourself, I won't change your e-diaper once you shit all over yourself trying to retract stupid and erroneous claims.

every one of the links provided above were somewhat sympathetic to the raided not the raidees.

You don't know how to read, then, I guess.

Sympathy and reporting the facts are two different things, case you were wondering.

here are some quotes from your link.
Jordan Kushner, head of the mass defense committee of the National Lawyers Guild's Minnesota chapter, denied that criminal activity was being planned.

Arresting people on conspiracy charges to pre-empt disruptions is troubling because it stops people from exercising free-speech rights, said Chuck Samuelson, executive director of ACLU in Minnesota. He said he was also concerned about the broad scope of the search warrant. ACLU attorneys were monitoring the arrests, Samuelson said.

"The raids drew criticism from other than the targets.
Dave Thune, a St. Paul city councilman whose district includes the theater building used as a hub for the protesters, denounced the raid, saying people had a legal right to assemble there."

"A fourth home, this one in St. Paul, was raided Saturday afternoon. Two people were detained outside the home in handcuffs for about two hours before St. Paul police arrived with a search warrant. St. Paul police spokesman Tom Walsh could not confirm whether anyone had been arrested."
That sounds convienent. It is very supportive of the police.

But you want links. i'll give them.

Amy Goodman
Kate Byron and Steve Brusk
Lindsay Beyerstein
Even Fox News!!??
Glenn Greenwald

There are alot of people, not just people like me, who see these raids as an injustice. And how successful can you call it when they failed so bad. they probbaly insighted the riots they were "tryin to suppress." Too many innocent people were stepped on. And i remember a great quote from Benjamin Franklin Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

At 9/6/08 07:06 PM, AreYouSure wrote:

GIVE ME A FUCKING LINK TO SUPPORT YOUR GOD DAMN STATEMENTS. EITHER DO SO OR STFU BEACUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT KNOW HOW TO DEBATE.

every one of the links provided above were somewhat sympathetic to the raided not the raidees. SO FIND ME A LINK AND POST IT PROVING THE COPS WERE COMPLETELY IN THE RIGHT. If you can do that i will shut up. but untill then learn how to post. you cant just say im wrong and thats that.
geesh.

At 9/6/08 10:16 AM, AreYouSure wrote:

For one. you are way to emotionaly involved in this to make balanced decisions. Yes i admit that there was maybe a few people who had some type of foul intentions. As there is in every society. But the extent of people involved is waht is shocking. And all the weapons they found were common household items. hatchets, knives, lighter fluid, bottles. next to the piss, i have everyone of those things in my garage. does that make me a terrorist? My mom is a community level activist also involved in the "food not bombs" campaign. does that make her a terrorist? The cops raided a Minnesota chapter of "food not bombs" now that sounds like a terrorist group.(thats in one of the links you pointed out) they also searched a green peace bus. Pulled it over off of the highway. Stuff like that. Who are these cops to just violate so many civil liberites on a possible lead. If all they found were some garden utensils that is not a victory.

and why would i ever look up something for what im arguing against. Now all of the links before me were in some way against the raids. Read them. so i demand you give me links with your side of the story. Or this arguement will go no where.

At 9/5/08 11:56 AM, AreYouSure wrote:

Who ever said there was gonna be riots.

You JUST did.

I want a link from you that says there were people planning to insight a riot.

The pre-empts were to prevent violence as indicated by the police moles who infiltrated the anarchist organization.

What anacrchist organizations? Link?

Which they let go in favor of the organizers.

after they ransacked their homes and cars. Why? beacuse they have a political oppion.

What civil liberties? The right not to be present during the takedown of ringleaders in a self-declared violent build up to the ZGOP convention?

The right to free speach dumbass. Most of these people were a target beacuse they spoke their mind.

Admit you made a big mistake challenging the even-handed actions of law enforcement.

Really?

I don't understand where you see civil liberties being violated. Just because I've got 20 idiots drinking lattes in the front room doesn't mean the cops can't act on information I've got and intend to use dangerous and terroristic devices in the back.

What information? link please?

Honestly you people have no regard for law and order that extends beyond writing speeding tickets. You dolts don't understand that what the cops did last week saved tons of money, prevented nasty occurances and allowed many MORE protesters to march peacefully by taking the instigators out of the equation for the duration of the convention.

How so? the goverment spent a hell of alot of money to fund the raids, which most came up with nothing. all they got were piss buckets and common household items. Find me a link that shows there was a success in the raids. Please. before you make too much of a fool of yourself.

If you don't want to act like a human fucking being in a public forum, expect to get your shit tossed.

You are really weird man. one i am a human being, last time i checked, and two my shit isnt gettin tossed. just countered. and poorly at that. you cant just disagree and say im wrong and think i'll just believe you. ha ha. that is rich.

o ya. one more thing. FUCK THE POLICE. HA HA HA HA HA HA.

At 9/5/08 02:17 AM, AreYouSure wrote: Don't chatter about ruining the general public's day and the cops won't bust your door down and take your buckets of piss from HQ or your piles of rocks from the sides of major highway bridges.

But yeah, peaceful protesters should gangrape the "bad apples" who bring legitimate pain unto the protest as a whole.

There are people here, mostly out-of-towners, planning and instigating actual violence against random Minnesotans.... and the delegations, too.

Piling up football-sized rocks besides highway overpasses? I hope some protester gets fucking shot.

Who ever said there was gonna be riots. all the raids were pre empts to supposedly stop them. But all they got were mostly journalists and protest groups. of which hardly any were found to be dangerous. Just admit that civil liberties were pissed all over.

These are just some fun links i found whilst searching the internet...enjoy.

Why Palin?

Experience through osmosis?

Interesting positions on the War

Its all about knowledge

The Palin "All you need to know" digest

The hoffific subject of foreign policy

At 9/5/08 12:35 AM, Blackhawkdown wrote:

At 9/4/08 09:41 PM, killa-teddy wrote: It is quite possible that there was some intent of disrupting the public peace ( you know with the urine and stuff). But there are multiple groups being targeted. Along with the press.
Even if these events all were conceived with ill will. The amount of police force used is excessive.

Really got any proof to back that up there? Because all I've seen are standard police tactics. It's called overwhelming force, fact is cops tend to be outnumbered by protesters and it only takes a few people to turn a large peaceful crowd into a destructive one. That's when cops employ a tactic called "overwhelming force" they come down as fast and hard as they can, this helps to put an immediate end to what's happening and discourages others from following suit.

I dont think he meant they were using excessive force in that matter. He meant they were exceeding their authority by randomly targeting anyone with a anti-republican voice. You know people that like to excersise their first ammendment rights. These cops were exceeding their authority by busting down doors of peaceful demonstraters just beacuse they caught wind of a few "bad apples." If you read his link you would understand his grounds. The "sufficent evidence" is what is in question here. These people were completely innocent. There were meth heads with guns that got caught at the democratic convention that got off lighter than some of these pen pushers. It is a shame to see civil liberties trampled so much. Over what? a couple of possible protests.

At 9/3/08 12:36 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 9/3/08 01:42 AM, Nitroglys wrote: ... In the highly likely case that Mccain dies in office do we really want her to lead the country.

Assuming that 8 years of non-executive lawmaker experience and less than four years non-executive senate experience equals being a governor for even twenty months...

You still cannot make this argument based on experience if you're an Obama supporter.

I can make this decison based on her lack of experience. You shouldnt be able to come just out of no where alaska and become the possible next president of the U.S. She should be prepared to be president from day one. And that she is not. Atleast Obama has some experience in the big leagues, All she has is governing the troops i guess.