Another enemy / obstacle concept drawing. This one is stationary and explodes out in multiple directions.

Here's a pair of enemies that I'm collectively calling "Sweet Lips." Their movement pattern is explained in the sketch. Basically, the float along the screen and attempt to ram the player.

Like? Dislike?

I figure we've got a good month at least to brainstorm before we begin seriously planning how we're going to execute this, so, let's just take our time on this and try and figure out what we like and what we don't.

Thanks to everybody who has posted ideas so far; I think we're off to a good start.

Quick concept sketch for an enemy I'm calling Fake Face 'cause I've got no creativity in me at the moment. It's movement is explained in the sketch. Basically, it moves slowly across the screen and fires it's face at the player.

At 11/8/09 10:20 PM, UltraPitchFork wrote: Some ideas

That's great looking! What were your plans for this one? Player ship?

At 11/8/09 09:51 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: I think that it's a really good idea, especially the different fearmongers and whatnot, and the buddhas, but it seems like this is getting too religious for the surreality of it. Maybe we could switch gears after the fearmongers, like the church could crumble apart and the big main boss "thing" could be something entirely different, but still similar.. Maybe fear itself could manifest, we could discuss how to portray that.

We can get away from the religious angle if people don't like that, and the church crumbling apart is pretty dramatic and befitting of a boss battle. I also do like the idea of fighting "fear itself" although I'm not sure how I'd visually portray that yet.

The cool zombie ladies look pretty nice, but it doesn't really match the angles one would use in this sort of game. If I'm wrong here, then correct me, but that's my impression of it.
Continuing on angles, what did you think of my idea?

I wasn't actually trying to go for correct perspective on it since it's just a concept, but I see the point you're making. I do like your idea about angles and I think we'll probably be doing something along those lines anyway. But, even if we do more of a top-down look, we can still play with the angles a bit to have things facing the viewer a little more; see this example from Gun Nac:

At 11/8/09 09:40 PM, UltraPitchFork wrote: I'll start making a shitload of concept art from now on. We're doing a surreal themed level, we should make art without any meaning. Dali and Alice in Wonderland are sure great inspiration but they should stay inspiration and . We should approach our theme in a less stereotypical manner. In a way, surreal can translate to psychedelic or abstract.

Not to get into a philosophical debate, but Surrealism is distinguishable from Dada in that Surrealists DO ascribe meaning to what they're doing, primarily as a manifestation of what's in their unconscious or subconscious mind; which is one reason why Dali painted so many scenes that were based on dreams he had and why Surrealists were very interested in Freud's psychological theories. Dada on the other hand DID basically say that nothing means anything; that's why so many Dadaists said that Dada was anti-art.

I agree with you that we should be aiming for something original, but if we're going for a type of stream of consciousness art style that is typical of lots of surrealist art then obviously aspects of our own cultural experiences are going to seep in there.

At 11/8/09 08:24 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: HEY.
All the other groups are making progress in their threads, and this one is all dead n' stuff.
let's fix that.
does anyone have any ideas, or have any opinions on the ideas already put out?

Well, we're ahead of the Cyberpunk and Flash levels; they don't eve have threads yet. I think our progress is pretty good so far, considering we still don't know most of the specifics yet; like the dimensions of the game window itself.

I'll throw my boss idea out here again. I wanted to try and get it more polished, since it's just a sketch right now, but, we can have it out here and see what people think.

So, I'm envisioning that in the last stretch of the level the player enters what is essentially a surrealist church / temple. This would be kind of fun, since one of the enemies / obstacles I wanted to include was a Buddha statue holding a gun that will randomly shoot at the player. Anyway, once the player reaches the end of the temple, they encounter an altar surrounded by these limbless creatures with picture boxes inscribed on their bodies. We'll call them "fearmongers." Each one represents a different type of human fear / perversion; they attack by projecting this "fear" onto the player's ship (this "fear" attack probably taking the form of a holographic projection of some kind shooting from the box in their body).

Once the player kills the last one, it drops to the floor and out of its back a tree starts growing; the tree sprouts a massive and stylized vision of the Virgin Mary with blonde hair, wearing sheer red lace, and pure white eyes. This final boss is mostly stationary, but is able to summon the "fearmongers" to attack on her behalf. She also has several unique attacks; she is able to attack with "divine light" which temporarily blinds the player and makes the screen go white for a few seconds; she can call on "divine intervention" which causes a massive fist to fall out of the sky and "smite" the player; she has a bullet hell attack called "morning aftershock" which fills the screen with various blue and pink pills and fetuses that latch onto the player's ship, slowing down movement and eventually exploding, causing massive damage that increases with each additional pill or fetus that attaches itself to the ship; and a sort of spreadshot attack called "bloody Mary" where her wrists suddenly bleed with stigmata and she flicks blood bullets at the player.

What do you guys think? Like it? Hate it? Should I scrap it and put my time to better use? Maybe we can use parts of this for several smaller enemies but you want a different Boss character?

At 11/8/09 04:52 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: I'm here you guys, I just haven't been at a computer for a day..

Awww, you big beautiful bastard! I know you'd show up eventually.

Kind of like the angle of a platformer, but still flying forwards and stuff.

You mean an isometric view? Like Zaxxon? Try and find an example and we can discuss it, although I am leaning towards more traditional vertical scrolling.

At 11/8/09 05:04 PM, zooominsh wrote: So yes, im here to help us make this game AWESOME.

It IS going to be AWESOME!

I will read everything first and than I will think about ideas.

I know it's a lot of stuff, but I think it'll help us approach this in practical terms of what has to be included in every level and what in-game physics we're working with and stuff like that.

Ohh, and everything should be drawn on pc right ?

Do whatever is easiest for you and use whatever tools you're best at working with. For now, since we're at the concept art stage, you can submit stuff drawn with paper and pencil, if you want. Once it comes time to create the actual in-game graphics, you'll have to be working on a computer, but at the moment it's not required.

At 11/8/09 02:06 PM, zooominsh wrote: Cells are great, I wanted cells more, but I think i can try surreal too.

Zooominsh! You're on Team Surreal and we want your art and ideas. Don't worry about MSN too much at the moment, but go over The Surreal Level Discussion Thread and make a post so everyone knows you're still onboard for the project.

Also, anybody else on Team Surreal, THIS is our official Discussion Thread for the Level, so go ahead and start posting any art and ideas you may have in this thread.

Also, anybody on Team Surreal that hasn't done so yet, please contact me through email at johnnycancer@live.com so you can be part of the group mailing list and receive necessary updates.

At 11/8/09 10:22 AM, ReNaeNae wrote: woO! Team surreal!!

I know! I'm excited too!

I asked bomtoons if we could do something with the controls... like reverse them or something. He said we could, but thought that might be annoying for the player lol ...what do you guys think?

I actually really like this idea of flipping the controls around and I don't think it would be that annoying if we make it have some internal consistency with the overall level design. For example, I was thinking that there might be a section which is loosely inspired by Alice in Wonderland, so, that section might start with the player ship literally going through a looking glass and then finding that everything looks topsy turvy and their controls are reversed as they race through a rabbit hole, or something like that. I think if we're doing it to add to the overall atmosphere of insanity, then it won't be that annoying.

OR

We could incorporate this into J-qb's suggestion about a sanity meter. In the outline, BomToons said it's possible to have a "special" meter that fills up as you collect specific powerups. Maybe he could reverse that behavior for our stage? Have a special meter that slowly decreases, and the player has to pick up powerups to keep it from running out; once the meter runs out, your ship transforms and you now have a super powerful weapon, BUT, your controls are reversed and the damage you take while in this form is doubled. The effect would only last maybe 10 or 15 seconds, and then you'd revert back to normal with a full sanity meter again.

What do you guys think?

Also... just because we're vertical doesn't mean it has to be top-down view, right?

Hmmmm....well I don't actually know, to be honest. I assume that we're going to play with the perspective of things a bit so, we won't necessarily be seeing the top of everything's head so to speak. But, the ship for example, I assumed we would more or less have a top-down view of that. What are other people envisioning?

We need to get the rest of the team in the loop!! Where is everyone?!?

I don't know. zooomnish was having computer problems, so, that might be keeping him from posting at the moment, but, everybody else I have no idea. I may have to start recruiting new people sooner than I thought if we can't assemble the whole team soon.

At 11/8/09 10:23 AM, idiot-monarch wrote: Top two guys are just cannon fodder guys who move in patterns. Bottom guy could be a mini boss or regular enemy. The idea is that his rays could spin and you have to avoid them.

I like the cannon fodder guys. Go ahead and start working on more polished versions of them.

I also like the pyramid mini-boss idea, but I'd like to see it fleshed out a little more. Maybe after you shoot the pyramid enough times it breaks apart and reveals an Egyptian god or goddess (maybe one rendered in an H.R. Giger style?). Go ahead and start polishing the design for this as a cannon fodder enemy, and we'll see how it might fit into the overall level design as it progresses. Okay?

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this guys. I'll try and get some designs up as well in the next couple of days.

Hey folks, this is the official thread for Team Surreal!

I know there's a lot of information here, but, I wanted to try and create a good starting point for ideas and discussion by giving us all the info we need to know before we start. Give it a skim at least and then start posting concept art.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team Roster and Contact Info - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As of 11/7/2009, Team Surreal is:

TimFrommeyer
ReNaeNae (specializing in coloring and cleanup) (MSN = renaev2@hotmail.com)
johnnycancer (team leader) (I can be contacted via MSN messenger or email as johnnycancer@live.com)
idiot-monarch (MSN = idiot-monarch@hotmail.com)
KillHammer
Spaghetti14
zooominsh
UltraPitchFork (technical advisor) (MSN = samuelstgermain@hotmail.com)

MSN Messenger is currently the default communication device for the team. If you don't have MSN Messenger, I need you to go download it and create an MSN account.

MSN Messenger can be downloaded here:

http://download.live.com/?sku=messenger

You can sign up for an MSN account for free here:

http://www.msn.com/

If your contact info isn't listed above, please PM me with it, or post in this thread so that the rest of the team can know how to contact you. We need to be able to communicate outside of Newgrounds because the private messaging system isn't particularly advanced and because I want to be able to mass email people with updates and other information.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team Motto!- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Our team motto, as showcased on our official Team Banner is:

"We our the music makers, and We are the dreamers of the dreams."

I think this is an appropriate rallying cry since, as surrealists, we will be drawing heavily upon our dreams and subconscious mind for inspiration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Level Information- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here's what we know about our level so far:

Theme: Surreal - if you want to get an idea of what surrealism encompasses, check out the following websites:

Wikipedia Entry on Surrealism

beinArt Surreal Art Collective

The Art of Dave McKean

Scrolling: Vertical, meaning that we will be viewing the player's ship, landscape, and enemies from a top down perspective. For examples of this see: Legendary Wings, Raiden, Ikaruga and some of the levels in Abadox for examples of vertically scrolling shooters

Level Structure:
- Phase I: smaller enemies and avoidance of obstacles. Enemies leave coins/gems/monetary
units behind when destroyed.
- Phase II: Boss Fight! (HUGE boss, bullet hell, possibly multiple forms). Boss, when destroyed,
leaves tons of coins to collect before level ends.

Customizable Elements:
1) Player ship
2) Player floating ship guns
3) Backgrounds / Foregrounds
4) Enemies / Obstacles
5) Bosses
6) Effects (explosions, glowing lights, etc.)
7) Bullet appearance
8) Level Music and Sound Effects
9) Special bullet types available for purchase

An outline with this information and other useful facts can be found here:

http://bomtoons.com/ngshmup/outline.php

As I find out more information about the specifications of the game, I'll be sure to inform the rest of the team about it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Guidelines for Graphic Design- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Tom suggested the following graphical guidelines:

1) Distant, solid background pieces should be JPG for file size, but GIF is alright
2) Parallax layers of background should be transparent GIF, unless they absolutely need to be
24-bit PNG, i.e. clouds and objects with alpha elements.
3) Player and enemies could be transparent GIF or 24-big PNG. PNGs will increase the file size a lot
and may perform slightly slower than transparent GIFs, but they can also look a lot nicer with
smooth edges.
4) Bullets and explosions will likely be 24-bit PNGs, with fun glow effects built into the art

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -Division of Labor- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We need individuals or teams working on the following things:
1) Backgrounds and foregrounds - these are larger pieces that will be highly detailed; we really
want these to shine because they're going to be a huge part of what creates the mood and
atmosphere for our level
2) Player ship design, including the following elements:
a. Physical look of the ship
b. Floating guns / options
c. Bullets (look and animation)
d. Upgrades and special bullet types
e. Ship damage (?)
3) Regular enemies - these are the cannon fodder for the level so we want to have lots of them
and we want there to be lots of unique designs to keep things interesting
4) Obstacles - these are solid barriers scattered throughout the level that players will have to avoid
5) Mini-Bosses / Sub-Bosses - these are special enemies that will be located in key areas
throughout the level - they will be bigger and tougher than regular enemies and they may have
more than one form
6) Boss - this is the big boss of the level; this baddie will be HUGE and we want it to go through
multiple transformations as it takes damage (check out the bosses in Smash TV if you want an
example)

If you're interested in working on a specific aspect of the game, let me know. As we divide up the labor, I will try to place people on projects they want to work on, but I reserve the right to place people where I think they will be the most useful since I'm concerned with maintain a high standard of quality for the entire project.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Guidelines for Conceptual Art - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For at least the next month, we're going to be focusing on conceptual art, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't for our level and theme.

Whenever possible with enemy designs, please try and explain how the enemy will behave in the game; what its patterns will be; its function in the game; and how it will attack.

Glance at the outline from time to time to see what's possible in-game and what's not.

Keep in mind that our level is a vertically scrolling level, so most of the enemies and objects will be seen from a top-down perspective.

You can work in any medium you want when doing conceptual art. However, once an idea is approved for in-game use, be prepared to go back and clean up your art using Photoshop / Illustrator / GIMP / Paint.net / Flash / other image editing software.

ReNaeNae will be in charge of cleaning up all art submitted for the level and insuring that everything has a uniform and consistent look to it. Understand that designs you submit may be modified in order for us to have a cohesive final product. Additionally, please use image editing software capable of producing JPG, 24-bit PNG, and GIF output, as these will be the formats that we will primarily be working in (unless ReNaeNae informs me that she needs other file formats in order to do her job).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - Final Words - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- - - - - -

Good luck everybody and have fun with this! We're going to all be working together for a long time so we might as well enjoy it. If you feel yourself getting discouraged or overwhelmed, keep in mind that you are participating in the largest collaborative effort that the Art Forum has ever produced and you have a unique opportunity to be a part of Newgrounds history. I am quite honored to be working with all of you and I am excited to see what we can come up with in the following weeks and months.

- johnnycancer -

At 11/7/09 07:52 PM, BlackmarketKraig wrote: Sorry for not posting about this sooner, but as soon as your team leaders is in place, please have them (the leader) create a thread for your team.

Thanks Kraig, I was waiting for the go-ahead on that. I'll start a thread for the Surreal team later tonight.

At 11/7/09 04:12 PM, BoMToons wrote: I need your help everyone. I need to test the frame-rate of my engine:

For the most part it stayed around 50-51 for me, although it occasionally dropped to 41 and at least once went down to 28.

Oh and idiot-monarch, thanks for adding me on MSN!

At 11/7/09 02:27 PM, ReNaeNae wrote: Maybe once (or even before) level leaders are chosen, each team can make their own progress thread and leave this main thread for 'global' updates.

I was going to ask about this too, for basically the same reasons ReNaeNae pointed out.

ATTN: TEAM SURREAL

Okay, so, we haven't really had anybody step up for the leadership position yet, and ReNaeNae said since I've been sending out PMs I should just run with it, so, for the time being, I"m going to be acting as temporary team leader. I still want either UltraPitchFork or zooominsh to act as co-captains or at the very least technical advisors since they have actual exeprience working as artists on games, but, if all else fails we'll just do this the hard way by trial and error.

Once we get the okay, I'll start a Surreal Team thread for updates, discussion, and general communication.

In the meantime, I want everybody to create an account with MSN (hotmail or live.com) and download MSN Messenger because that's going to be our instant messenger of choice for this project. I can be contacted through email or on MSN Messenger as johnnycancer@live.com

Also, as our first assignment, start researching surreal art and putting together a body of photographs, sprites, paintings, and other art that we can use as references and inspiration for creating out own unique level. Keep in mind we have a VERTICALLY scrolling level, so certain concepts may work better than others.

To get everybody started, here are some sites to visit:

Wikipedia Article on Surrealism

beinArt Surreal Art Collective (has a nice collection of various contemporary surrealist art)

The Art of Dave McKean (really cool contemporary artist whose style is a mixture of painting and photographs, you know him best as the guy who did the covers for the comic book The Sandman and also the guy who illustrated Batman: Arkham Asylum)

As you look at this stuff, think about what role or roles you want to play in designing the level; backgrounds; foreground objects; enemy design; ship design; boss design; etc.

That should be enough to keep everybody busy for right now.

At 11/6/09 11:21 PM, ReNaeNae wrote: ...who is our team leader? Anyone wanna step up?

I don't know anything about game making, so I'm totally not qualified and don't wanna do it! lol

Oh geez, you are totally the person I was going to nominate for the job too. Based on our lineup, it looks like UltraPitchFork or zooominsh are the only ones who have actual experience working on a game, so, I would suggest one of them for the task of team leader (UltraPitchFork was the artist involved in A Bad Taste of Pico, which was pretty awesome).

On a related note, do we know any of the specifications for the game yet? I'd kind of like to know what the dimensions of the game window are going to be at least before I start doing anything serious, since it kind of affects the level of detail that'll be visible and stuff like that.

Oh, also, concept art. Background? Enemy? Boss? I don't know, and the fact that we've got a vertical level kind of changes the dynamic a bit. But, this did pop out of my head yesterday as I was reading the team lineups.

Figured I should post this up as well. This...probably needs an explanation. There's an Internet show called Doc Mock's Movie Mausoleum which is similar to Mystery Science Theater 3000 in that it involves people watching movies and making commentary about the movies. Just imagine Mystery Science Theater but with a horror theme and guests.

Anyway, they had a contest a few weeks ago to draw the cast from the show in a carnival setting, and this is what I came up with. Not the best thing I've ever done, but, it was more than a little rushed too.

I wanted to post this up though because there's another art contest going on for the show right now. The theme is pretty simple: draw the cast of the show engaged in Halloween shenanigans. The prize? Nothing huge, a collector's toy from Full Moon Productions (the movie company that has been letting the show use a lot of their movies). Still, a pretty decent prize for pumping out a quick Halloween drawing.

So yeah, here's the contest thread:

http://www.thestream.tv/forum/viewtopic.
php?t=3733

And here's a link to the show's webpage as well:

http://www.docmock.com/

And there we have it. If you're reading this thread, you should enter the contest. The deadline is October 29. Winner gets bragging rights. DO IT!

johnnycancer is planning something.

As always, thank you to all the folks who have commented in here. You've no idea how much your positive comments and helpful criticisms mean to me.

I am momentarily stepping outside of my self-imposed exile to let you know that you've really improved as an artist and, although some of your stuff still looks a bit rushed, on the pieces where you take your time, stuff looks really polished and well executed. You're also developing a pretty interesting style that is somewhere in between realism and cartooning, which I would liken to a sort of Americanized anime style. Anyway, I like it. Keep up the good work.

At 6/5/09 08:00 PM, johnnycancer wrote: Never got a chance to really add anything to this, but here's my PNG version, as per the rules:

http://spamtheweb.com/ul/upload/050609/6 1198_notepadcollab_final.png

Realized I need to include my info:

NG Level: 11
Location: in Antarctica secretly training a penguin army
Age / Gender: 25 Male
Artist's Comments: if you only knew the things I see when I close my eyes.

Never got a chance to really add anything to this, but here's my PNG version, as per the rules:

http://spamtheweb.com/ul/upload/050609/6 1198_notepadcollab_final.png

At 5/28/09 01:08 PM, Rhunyc wrote: I think my submission is now competition worthy. :P (Where-as before, it was close to shit. ;D) Lemme know what needs to be fixed. I want to make sure it's good before I submit it. ;)

Oh, and text, any comments on it? I just made it up in half a second, so that's subject to change. :D

I think it's competition-worthy now too. Definitely much improved over the original version you posted. I think the stop sign works and it's a good way to work in icons from the series, and the goggles are a nice touch too. I also like the mask, but I think I would go ahead and make it more opaque; I know the other stuff she's wearing is semi-sheer, but, having her face showing through just doesn't look right. Take a look at the mask in this drawing of Ryu Hayabusa of Ninja Gaiden fame:

http://computerduderec.deviantart.com/ar t/Ryu-Hayabusa-85499765

Other than that I think the picture is looking pretty good at this point.

Text: I liked the original text better because I thought it presented an interesting concept with Hank going up against a woman, but the new font is pretty awesome. In the event that you or anyone else is looking for interesting fonts, check out:

http://www.blambot.com/

and

http://www.dafont.com/

Anyway, good luck on finishing this up.

At 5/27/09 05:43 PM, CosmicDeath wrote: Holy moley... nearly last call. Where are these last minute submissions that people keep banging on about??

Hmmm...you got me, I figured there'd be more going on at the moment than what's actually happening right now. Rhunyc still has an entry outstanding and I'll be fairly disappointed if he doesn't get that finished by the deadline. Sucho could definitely squeeze something out here at the last minute; I believe the Blue Rabbit entry that won the December spot in the calendar contest was done in the space of one or two days right before the end of the contest, but then again, he's been pretty quiet about this lately, so, I don't know if he's still in on this or not.

Maybe with finals and graduations and stuff the timing for this is just really bad. I'm really at a bit of a loss to explain the lack of enthusiasm about this contest. That or the subject matter is a real deterrent to people. But the Heavy Metal cover contest had a huge turnout, so, it doesn't seem like people aren't entering because they can't draw women...

Incidentally, how long after the end of the contest will it be before the winners are announced? Any rough estimates on that?

At 5/22/09 03:14 AM, SmilingIdiot wrote: 25 days later and i just got home....now that im home i have to look for my damn pen for my tablet....find the bluetooth thing so i can connect my tablet and still have to sleep....maybe i can get this done later on today....if my roomate lost my pen and bluetooth thing then i have to buy another set of those....

I was starting to wonder if you were going to get it finished in time or not. Still plenty of time for you to make the deadline.

At 5/21/09 05:28 PM, FullFistMaria wrote: Bloopedy

I love you for starting this thread.

At 5/21/09 05:25 PM, poxpower wrote: Almost done now...

I have to say I'm excited to watch what entries are going to come in at the last minute since that's when the surprises seem to happen with Newgrounds contests.

At 5/21/09 03:04 AM, smbhax wrote: I'd say she came out quite well! The smaller fonts are a little hard to read, but the drawing is sweet.

Thanks, I appreciate hearing that from you since you've got one of the best entries in the contest so far.

Thanks for all the comments guys. Here's my other entry for the miniposter contest, also NSFW.
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Shyguys. It's all about the shyguys.

Entry # 2, which I think rocks just a little harder because it's got multiple shyguys in it.

Full size version HERE.

Entry # 1 for me. Figured I'd post this stuff up before the last minute.

The full size version is HERE, if anybody feels the need to look at it.

You have quite a nice style and I have to say I enjoy your choice of subject matter greatly. My favorite so far has got to be your little fairy with the purple pubic hair, although, it's pretty hard to pick a favorite.

Since you draw the female form in a way that's quite lovely, could I suggest that you take a shot at making an entry for the NG Miniposters Girl Contest? It seems like it's right up your alley and I'd love to see one of your pieces win. The deadline is May 31st so, it's not a lot of time for you to do something, but, I bet you could still whip up something pretty great.

Here's the Contest Discussion Threadtoo in case you want to check that out and see what other people are doing.

Anyway, great work and I hope you'll continue to post.

This is all looking really great. I can't believe those first 2 were done in MS Paint, how did you get that kind of texture in it?