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At 1/5/06 08:42 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: The Navy has been a pretty cool experience so far for me.
For the amount of work I do, I am WAY overpaid, for the amount of stupid BS I put up with, I'm underpaid.

There are pros and cons to military service, but it's definitely a learning experience.

Arbitrary, what's your MOS or, If that's not applicable to the Navy, what's your rate and speciality?

Yeah, I'm hoping to join the Navy or the Coast Guard either after graduate school, law school or medical school (but the Navy after Med school only, USCG doesn't have doctors as military personnel as far as I know). It's the duty of every citizen, me, a liberal too, to serve his or her nation in some manner.

At 1/5/06 08:43 PM, Jerconjake wrote: That's not the worst of it. Technically, Jews living in Israel is against Judaism itself. The very existence of that state is heresy. But, that's what happens when you get a group that just changes the beliefs as it sees fit to suit its own benefit.

Wow, so not true. God gave Israel to the Jews.

"New York City’s Police Commissioner Ray Kelly says the .50-caliber rifle is in a class by itself. He agreed to show 60 Minutes just how powerful the .50 caliber is.

First, a police sharpshooter fired the NYPD’s own .30 caliber sniper rifle at a steel target. Downrange, three football fields away, the three shots from the .30 caliber rifle bounced off the half-inch thick steel.

"You can see it hasn’t penetrated it," says Kelly.

Then the sharpshooter fired three rounds from a Barrett .50-caliber rifle at the same target.

"Went right through," says Kelly. "It is clearly a weapon of war, a round to be used in a wartime situation. It’s appropriate for the military. The effective range is about 2,000 yards. It’s a very formidable weapon."

In other words, if the NYPD’s range had been 20 football fields long, instead of three, the .50-caliber rifle – firing ordinary ammunition -- still would have been devastatingly effective.

"Clearly, it is a very powerful weapon. We saw what it could do as far as going through armor," says Kelly. "It would be a weapon that could do a lot of damage – no question about that."

This is exactly what the FBI learned in 1993 at Waco when Branch Davidians fired a Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifle at them.

In response, the FBI deployed Bradley fighting vehicles for protection. But even that wasn’t sufficient, and heavier armor was brought in.

What happened at Waco was one of the arguments made for banning the weapon in California. Other states are now considering a similar ban for fear of potential terrorist attacks.

"If you go through virtually any industrial state, you’ll see right off the highways all kinds of highly toxic and or flammable materials stored in big tanks. These are ideal targets," says Diaz. "The point is you can plan your attack from a longer distance. It’s the combination of range and power."

The standard .50-caliber bullet is four times heavier than the .30-caliber bullet, and 10 times heavier than the M16 bullet."

http://www.cbsnews.c..tes/main665257.shtml

"Any 18 year old who can pass a Brady background check can buy a 50 caliber rifle
under federal law. But one must be at least 21 years old to buy a handgun at a gun
store." (Violence Policy Center)

"A 1999 investigation by the U.S. General Accounting Office found the rifles were available on civilian markets with fewer restrictions than those placed on handguns. Ammunition dealers were willing to sell armor-piercing bullets even when an agent pretending to be a buyer said he wanted the ammunition for use against armored limousines or "to take a helicopter down.""
(Military.com)

"When U.S. Soldiers need to penetrate a tank's armor from a mile away, they count on a weapon that evolved from the garage tinkering of a former wedding photographer.
The .50-caliber rifle created by Ronnie Barrett and sold by his company, Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Inc., is the most powerful firearm civilians can buy. It weighs about 30 pounds and can hit targets up to 2,000 yards away with armor-piercing bullets."
(military.com)

Can you say DANGEROUS?!!? It's legal to buy with fewer restrictions than a PISTOL and it can penetrate TANK armor from over A MILE (A MILE A MILE A MILE!) away!

Just because they haven't been used, so you say, doesn't mean they WON'T be used. And, by the way, they HAVE been used. "They seem to be a very small problem," you say, but, look at this.

In March of 2005, Kyle Harness of Marina del Rey, California, was arrested after being pulled over on a traffic stop and found to be in possession of a stolen Armalite 50 caliber sniper rifle. Harness was stopped for having a broken taillight and false registration tags, and was on parole for armed robbery at the time of his arrest. (“Officer Finds Rifle in Parolee’s Car,” Daily Breeze, March 15, 2005)

In June of 2004, Marvin Heemeyer of Granby, Colorado, plowed a makeshift armored bulldozer into several buildings in response to a zoning dispute and fines for city code violations. Heemeyer armored his 60-ton bulldozer with two sheets of half-inch steel with a layer of concrete between them. He methodically drove the bulldozer through the town of Granby, damaging or leveling 13 buildings before taking his own life. Heemeyer mounted three rifles on the bulldozer, including a Barrett 82A1 50 caliber sniper rifle. ("Man who plowed armored bulldozer into seven buildings in Colorado is dead, authorities say," Associated Press, June 5, 2004; "Armored Dozer Was Bad to Go," Denver Rocky Mountain News, June 25, 2004)
Slide show of the interior of Heemeyer's bulldozer from the Denver Post

In February of 2004, Donin Wright of Kansas City, Missouri, lured police officers, paramedics, and firefighters to his home where he shot at them with several guns including a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Authorities discovered at least 20 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and the makings of 20 pipe bombs inside Wright's home. ("Body is Identified in KC Gunfight, Fire," The Kansas City Star, March 30, 2004)
Slide show of the crime scene from thekansascitychannel.com

In June of 2000, Robert W. Stewart of Mesa, Arizona, a convicted felon, was charged with felony possession of firearms for being in possession of Maadi-Griffin 50 caliber "kit guns" he was selling from his home, along with other firearms alleged to be in his possession. Stewart has become a folk hero among hard-line gun advocates and 50 caliber enthusiasts. He was distinguished, among other things, by his assertion that convicted felons have the right to possess firearms: "I don't care if he's a mass murderer, he killed 50,000 people. He still has a right to have a gun. A gun is just a tool." (MSNBC transcript, "The .50-caliber militia," http://msnbc.com/news, May 15, 2001)

In April of 2000, convicted felon Wayne Frank Barbuto of Salt Lake City, Utah, was charged with attempting to sell two 50 caliber sniper rifles to undercover federal agents. The government believes Barbuto manufactured the guns himself. During a search of Barbuto's home, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents discovered more than 32 firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition. ("Sandy Gun Dealer Charged by Feds," The Associated Press, May 5, 2000)

According to the General Accounting Office (GAO), 50 caliber sniper rifles have been found in the armories of drug dealers in California, Missouri, and Indiana. A federal investigation in 1999 was "targeting the movement of .50 caliber semi-automatic rifles from the United States to Mexico for use by drug cartels." ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999)

On March 19, 1998, following an undercover investigation, federal law enforcement officers arrested three members of a radical Michigan group known as the North American Militia. The men were charged with plotting to bomb federal office buildings, destroy highways, utilities, and public roads, and assassinate the state's governor, senior U.S. Senator, federal judges, and other federal officials. All three were ultimately convicted. A 50 caliber sniper rifle was among the weapons found in their possession. ("Prosecutor: Hate Was Motive Behind Plot," The Associated Press, November 18, 1998)

Wisconsin father and son James and Theodore Oswald were sentenced in 1995 to multiple life terms for armed robbery and the murder of a Waukesha police captain. The two had "a small armory of sophisticated and expensive weapons, including two custom-made .50-caliber rifles powerful enough to assault an armored car—which the two were considering doing," according to the Waukesha county sheriff. ("Possible Links Between Robbers, Far Right Sought," Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1995)

Branch Davidian cult members at a compound in Waco, Texas, fired 50 caliber sniper rifles at federal ATF agents during their initial gun battle on February 28, 1993. The weapons' ability to penetrate tactical vehicles prompted the agency to request military armored vehicles to give agents adequate protection from the 50 caliber rifles and other more powerful weapons the Branch Davidians might have had. Four ATF agents were killed. ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999)

On February 27, 1992, a Wells Fargo armored delivery truck was attacked in a "military style operation" in Chamblee, Georgia, by several men using a smoke grenade and a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Two employees were wounded. ("Two Armored Truck Guards Shot," The Atlanta Journal Constitution, February 27, 1992)

In 1989, two members of a church in Gardner, Montana, who were part of what ATF has described as a "doomsday religious cult," were arrested and charged with federal firearms violations. The two suspects had purchased hundreds of firearms, including ten 50 caliber semiautomatic rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition, using false identification. ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999)

(above is an abridged list of crimes from the Violence Policy Center)

And what about the ease of obtaining these armor-piercing, long range rifles? They are DANGEROUS and have NO legitimate hunting or personal protection purpose!

"Jesus"=Joshua of Nazareth, son of Mary and Joseph, girlfriend was Mary Magdelene, a hooker. Said he was the "Son of God" and the "Messiah" but clearly wasn't. Historically insignificant until his death. And his method of execution was common at the time.

Sharon's a good guy! Incredible service record and nice and hardline (to a reasonable point). At least Olmert isn't bad, either. It's really too bad that Sharon is not doing so well.

Is it a good idea to join the military? Would you ever consider it? This is a politics-relevant thread, in the sense that it is in regards to geopolitics and the waging of war.

Hear, hear! Good argument (guy directly above me)

By the way, does anyone know what counts as a "regular?" A hundred posts and up, or is more needed?

If you want proof that you have only a limited right to bear arms, the supreme court has ruled that the government can regulate what you can and cannot own in terms of weaponry. In general, anything but a bolt-action rifle (clearly for hunting) is pretty silly. Unless you can prove that you NEED it. Even then, you don't need a .50 cal or even a FN 5-7.

At 1/5/06 07:18 PM, Barbeq wrote: I'm from sweden so i can't pick my own nation. So i guess i would pick Germany. I don't know why actually but i think it depends most on their history in music, war (mostly ww1), their technology and lots of other stuff

Wow, really intellectual of you. *cough, snicker.* Germany has an instable economy, high unemployment and, speaking of their war history, was NAZI during WWII. Lest we forget. Not too terrible today, except for the poor economy, high unemployment and anti-US sentiment.

Is military school as bad as it's shown to be in the media? Or is it just like any other school except you have to drill?

Damnit, guys! Be tolerant of other people! Just let people who are gay have civil unions and be accepted as regular members of society! Discussing the biological ramifications of anal sex is just semantics! Who cares if two gay men having sex doesn't actually cause reproduction!?!? They love each other (or just want to have sex, like many straight people do, ie have random sex with people), so let them be!

It's not a question of proof. Science is leading up to the 'discovery' of God every day! Each new gene unlocked is a step to the path of discovering "Hey! God must exist! This is so damn complicated that nothing else could have jump-started the creation of it!"

Blackhawk,

Your data is often false and your arguments baseless. Give me one good reason why .50 cals shouldn't be banned.

Who gives a flying fuck if it's propaganda? It has innacuracies, sure, but it's the essence of the film-Americans working together to kill Nazi assholes.

How about this? Israelis supported the US in it's darkest hour, while the Palestinians are cheering to the death of 3,000 Americans (during 9/11).

At 2/16/04 04:56 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: I wonder why the Jews can't SHARE their land with the Palestinians? </commonsense>

Umm...because we bought, were given by treaty or conquered the land, dumbass? And they're terrorists who will kill, lie, cheat, steal, rape, pillage, hijack and demand what they don't have without being willing to compromise. Plus, Palestinians have no right to have what they haven't bought, weren't given by treaty or conquered.

At 1/5/06 06:54 PM, Quanze13 wrote: poor guys' officially fucked.

Poor guy? He's a murderer. Who should be locked up for the REST of his natural life.

I did. You're too funny!
" • We found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of waiting periods
for firearm acquisition in reducing suicide, homicide, aggravated assault,
robbery, rape, or unintentional firearm-related injury death.
• Evidence was insufficient because of the small number of available studies,
limitations in study design and execution, and inconsistent effects."
BUT... "Insufficient evidence means that we were not able to determine whether or
not the intervention works."

They can't determine it! Because there hasn't been enough research! And waiting periods should be even longer and have data kept for eternity, rather than 30 days.

At 1/5/06 11:19 AM, HomeGrownTurnip wrote: Another one was in Germany concentration camps doctors who tested on the jew found a cure for cancer. But the aposing side burnt all these research tents down destroying the notes and scientists.

That's funny shit...that didn't happen.

At 1/5/06 05:01 PM, Proteas wrote: Headlines... you've got to love the headlines... but tag on the headline of "ANGRY COCKS TERRORIZE TOWN" and suddenly everyone is interested. :-)

Too true. Sensationalism is funny, but not neccesarily good.

How does gays getting civil unions hurt me? It doesn't harm me at all. So, I don't care. Marry, get a civil union, it's all good. Gay people are equal to straight people. We're all equal!

No need to change the constitution to limit gun sales. Such limits are constitutional, so said the supreme court in "United States v. Miller...the Court sustained a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ''[w]ith obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.'"
(http://caselaw.lp.fi..itution/amendment02
/)

Miller case proves it all for me.

Oh, and read this, gun-toters. Please, just read it, THEN bash it. If you can...
http://www.bradycamp..ts/reports/gandt.pdf

Bullshit. Lee Harvey Oswald killed him. Perhaps there WAS a grassy knoll shooter. But NOT from or due to Cuba. Maybe the KGB or rogue russian faction pissed at outcome of the Missile Crisis, but NOT Cuba.

At 1/4/06 08:40 PM, Blackhawkdown wrote:

At 1/4/06 05:20 PM, mackid wrote: AK-47s, CAR-15s and .50 cal barrets...

I hate to break it to you, but all the weapons you mentioned qualify as small arms. Plus the 2nd admenment says that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

So nice of you to notice. "But they're all small arms! Waaah waah waah!" Irrelevant. They're all weapons intended for use by the military and police departments. Why in hell do you need to kill a deer at 1800 meters (ACCORDING TO: http://www.fas.org/m..101/sys/land/m82.htm

, the Federation Of American Scientists...don't even try to say that it's biased. Ok, I was wrong on the two klick figure, but almost 2 kilometers is close enough!)

(Quotes are from the Brady Campaign)

Oh yes the Brady campaign, they're not biased at all they're perfectly honest and good intentioned. Try a more unbiased source.

Information clearinghouse. Attack my argument, not my facts, which all come from the brady campaign and are all cited specifically there.

I concur, but who needs a lever action, semi-auto or burst firing rifle or assault rifle to hunt deer, or even a rifle that fires anything bigger than a .30-06? Bolt action .30-06, yes. Semi-auto .50 cal barret, no (and, this .50 cal, by the way, which can take down armored vehicles at 2 klicks, helocopters and airplanes, is easier to get than a handgun.)

Uhh, you really need to learn a little bit about the weapons you talk about. The max range on a Barreta .50 cal is about 1700 meters, and that's under perfect condition with a trained sniper, even then hitting a target such as an airplane or a helicopter is extremely difficult. Also guns back in the days of the revolution often were of calibers upwards fo .86, in fact they would have considered a .50 cal weapon small.

Uhh...see what I said earlier. And about the muskets, so what if an .86 cal weapon was normal? (Which it wasn't. The Brown Bess was a .69 caliber weapon, according to http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A777990P) Accuracy was shitty, which makes sense, since they fired a friggin' MUSKET BALL and were SMOOTHBORE! Jeez. And those muskets were certainly innacurate with a range of around, at max, 100 yards, where a "man sized target could be hit about 40 percent of the time," according to the National Park Service (http://www.nps.gov/spar/1795gunb.html). And, for another thing the reload time of a musket was max, 4 rounds a minute for the best trained British grenadiers, though the Barrett is a SEMI-AUTO rifle! And the .50 cal isn't a Baretta!!! Wow, you're not even reading what I said. The M82A is a Barrett .50 cal. SEMI-AUTO RIFLE.
More regarding the Barrett. Before you bash my source, READ IT! It's cited well. http://www.bradycamp..s/issues/?page=50cal

Curt Bartlett, Chief of the Firearms Technical Branch at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms', illustrated just how inappropriate the .50 caliber sniper rifle is for sport when he said, "anything bigger would be getting into the range of cannons."
Sales literature from Barrett Firearms Manufacturing and E.D.M. Arms, respectively, tout the .50 caliber sniper rifle as capable of "destroying multimillion dollar aircraft with a single hit delivered to a vital area" and to "attack various material targets such as parked aircraft, radar sites ammunition, petroleum and various thin-skinned material targets."
One dealer stated to a GAO investigator:

"You'd better buy one soon. It's only a matter of time before someone lets a round go on a range that travels so far, it hits a school bus full of kids. The government will definitely ban .50 calibers. The gun is just too powerful.

By the way, the GAO is the General Accounting Office of the United States Congress...

BATF agents reported that the Branch Davidians at Waco fired .50 caliber sniper rifles at BATF agents attempting to execute a search warrant. BATF had requested the use of Bradley Fighting Vehicles to execute the search warrant because the Bradley is believed capable of withstanding .50 caliber firearms. But the Bradley's were not used and four agents were killed.

Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 everday this comes from the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. Do you really beleive that guns aren't still needed? I mean come on, 2.5 million crimes, that's a lot, it actually comes out to about once per every 13 seconds.

Sureeee they do...
"For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting [note that every
self-defense is legally justifiable] there are 22 criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related
shootings." (source: Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, et al. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the
home." The Journal of Trauma. 1998;45:263-267. and medical journals tend not to lie about those kinds of things...)
And
"In 2003, there were only 163 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in
the United States." So there! (FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2003, table 2.16, p. 24."

At 1/5/06 03:47 PM, punisher19848 wrote: Just because a gun is old doesn't mean it's worthless. If some drunken fool broke into my home, I'll use anything in my possession to either kill the fucker or get him off the property.

Ok, great! And you can be arrested for responding with TOO much force to someone coming into your home. It's only right to shoot them if they shoot you. Shove a gun in his face, fine, just don't shoot him unless he's after you.

Obsolete in the sense that it's not needed. You can own a 486, but that's not stopping it from being obsolete.

Owning a LeMat revolver is of reasonable historical value, especially if you seal the barrel with a big hunk of metal. Just as owning an M1 used at D-Day is, but why do you suggest needing it, or any gun, for home defense. And why would you use something of historical value for anything other than a museum piece except in case of dire need.