Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 6/14/10 06:14 PM, vannila-guerilla wrote:

At 6/14/10 06:10 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: Put simply:
I am the only internet provider around. You can choose not to have internet or buy internet from me. I can raise the price as high as I want and you have to pay me what I want you to pay me so you can have it. Of course, you can choose not to have internet, but in modern society you make a great sacrifice. Because I am the only one I don't have to fear you get some from my competitor at a cheaper price, I just have to wait till you crack.

And that's when the smaller competitors start rising up and take over the other one for unfair price gouging. That simple.

Then you break the monopoly hypothesis and you're in perfect competition. Really bad logic there.

But yeah, as everyone has said, higher prices and (therefore) less production.

I used to be a kid, and stupid so *shrugs*

I start a new round of current wallpaper showing!

Proteas is a stealth Chilean.

That is all.

At 5/30/10 10:58 PM, Stoicish wrote: 3. Tired old topics and debates that provide literally nothing new. Go ahead and skim through the first three pages of Politics. Notice something? Yeah, most of them are boorish and redundant. How many China topics can you have before we get that they are evil commie bastards.

Hey! Mine was a monetary discussion! :(

I think it meant self-evident as taken by granted by our current moral standards, not as factually obvious.

And on the matter of being created equal, I believe it is true, since the biological creation of every human is the same; furthermore, differences in personality and physical capabilities arise at older ages, if we are only to take into account those born "healthy".

At 5/27/10 11:40 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 5/27/10 10:50 AM, Der-Lowe wrote: @ the rest of posters, I do not believe that China is economically superior to America, but it will be in a few years, not individually, just because they're 1.3 billion people and you 0.3.
It wasn't what I was talking anyway, I just wanted to state that China has higher inflation and faster growth of money aggregates (ie they print MORE money than the US), BECAUSE of their trade surpluses.

China's size is actually the thing that will keep it from becoming the superpower. China is like a behemoth company, while the Developed Countries are more like the midsized company.

You forget that there are several sizes of developed countries; there's the US with 300 million people, Germany with 80, Spain with 40, Switzerland with 8, Finland with 5, and Luxembourg with 0.5.
Furthermore, history has shown that superpowers rise not because of their individual efficiency or the collapse of the former superpower, but a mere demographical strength.
The Uk had much faster Population growth than France, so did Germany, and then so did the US. The USSR was a world power merely because it had more than 100 million people, and China, India Russia and Brazil are internationally relevant because they have more than 100 million people.

However, China would be like a midsized company where only one office has computers and the rest are working on the telegraph. The pure amount of resources it would need to move China into the 20th Century (let alone the 21st) would bankrupt it.

Why bankrupt it? How? China simply invests its exceeding production (ie, consumes less and invests the saving), it doesn't borrow from abroad. In this way, China invests 40% of its GDP, much more than any other nation,both in relative terms as in absolute ones. We're talking
TWO
TRILLION DOLLARS!

a year.

At 5/26/10 01:34 PM, MrPercie wrote: Who cares! its just money.

Milton Friedman revolves in his grave.

At 5/24/10 11:30 PM, Gunner-D wrote:

At 5/24/10 04:18 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: Of all the sarcastic comments you could make, this is definitely the worst.

What makes you think it was sarcasm?

A tendency to believe that the world revolves around me, common to most Argentinians and many Americans. Sorreh

Because of the sarcasm of your preceeding comments? Or the fact that I mention that people must be convinced that deflation can't exist? I can't even tell if you were being sarcastic about the thread title.

I was, the whole idea of the thread was to mock deficit scare mongers.

Fuck China. As far as I am concerned, the United States will always dominate. Prescription to your current dogma will leave you disappointed.

This is not a sarcastic comment - You value money more than I do. Therefore, it is worth less to me, correct?

And if you really want to make an economic statement, then tell me... at what price would you sell your freedom?

I really lost you here.

At 5/22/10 08:46 PM, Ytaker wrote: Euro is collapsing too. Germany is the centre of it, and the Germans are getting angry, after being forced to pay billions to fund rich lazy greek government officials.

Plus, there was another country which built up a huge foreign currency reserve, which everyone said would be unstoppable, surpass America. Japan, just before it's huge recession. And, similarly, America, just before the great depression.

You shouldn't think of imports as bad and exports as good. Money is useless. It's what you buy with it that counts. China isn't adequately investing in its own country. Their real estate prices are rising extremely fast. Inflation is rising, too.

They're hoping to deal with it, but... it's tricky. They can't deal with a recession. If there was one, that would lead to a lot of lonely men wandering around in gangs, jobless. A good way to start a civil war. They have to be very careful.

I agree with what you have said (not being sarcastic anymore).
I therefore award you the Economics cookie of the thread
*Cookeh*
Congrats!

@ the rest of posters, I do not believe that China is economically superior to America, but it will be in a few years, not individually, just because they're 1.3 billion people and you 0.3.
It wasn't what I was talking anyway, I just wanted to state that China has higher inflation and faster growth of money aggregates (ie they print MORE money than the US), BECAUSE of their trade surpluses.

200 YEARS OF HISTORY, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Recitals, and fireworks in the obelisk.
Choirs and Bands sang the national anthem at exactly midnight, in the Valle de la Luna. It was broadcast nation-wide.

At 5/24/10 10:24 PM, Malachy wrote:

At 5/24/10 12:18 AM, Der-Lowe wrote:

At 5/22/10 06:50 PM, Malachy wrote: I have a ton of family over for graduation. Last night we went to some bars and they were all having "seniors night" and somehow that means cover charges. wtf.

graduated this morning. it was hot out but at least it didn't rain.

YAAAAAAAAAAY
*throws eggs and flour at him*

Srsly, congrats!

D

(3 more years for me)

Thanks, man. Although, I don't know what the eggs and flour has to do with it...do you turn your graduates into glaze for pies and pastries?

nah we just throw eggs and flour at them and parade them around town. Fun.
Will happen to me one day (I hope) and I promise to post pics :D

At 5/24/10 08:42 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: "yeah, I really don't know what to tell you to do...well, really you know what has to be done better then me so..."

hahaha
What's your job, avie?

At 5/24/10 02:15 AM, vryheid wrote: So yeah, for actual living conditions, I'm still going with US > China.

Which was kind of my point (mine was much more technocratic, namely that the US has had a much better handling of its monetary aggregates), if you are able to read between my conservative-mocking logic, or if you care to read anything beyond the Thread's subject, or even if you just read the subject, become a little bit suspicious of its exceeding simplicity.

At 5/24/10 07:54 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 5/24/10 12:07 AM, Der-Lowe wrote: That is also obviously a sound plan; the first rule of investment is buying whatever is increasing in value, nevermind the nature, fundamentals or liquidity of the asset you are buying.

Oh, my bad. I forgot currencies held their value during economic downturns and gold crashes. And also I forgot that gold can be produced out of thin air and have its value decreased :(

heh. Good one.
But my initial sarcastic remark is partially true, herd behavior ftw. If all the idiots are buying gold, then you should buy as well, and hopefully leave when the price crashes. We ARE at 1250 dollars the ounce, after all.

This DIRECTLY CAUSES INFLATION, as anyone with a basic notion of Economics knows.

Um who cares aggregate demand is boosted, end of story.

How do you monetarily boost aggregate demand?
Why has M2 stayed in normal levels, whereas the Monetary base has shot up?
Why does China has a faster growth of M2 than the US?

At 5/24/10 01:52 AM, Gunner-D wrote:

At 5/23/10 01:03 PM, Gunner-D wrote:

At 5/22/10 08:36 PM, Der-Lowe wrote:

Like all games, there is always a reset button.

I fully agree; if there is something to learn about the recent crisis, is that a single currency for completely disproportionately, economically inflexible region is the way to go.

Something else I learned from the recent crisis is that deflation is a sin and we must do anything and everything to avoid it, delay it, or just forget about it so we all believe it cannot exist. Cause in American free market capitalism, deflation will eat banks, businesses, and the stock market effectively without prejudice.

Of all the sarcastic comments you could make, this is definitely the worst.
Show me one case of deflation success story, wait no, show me one case of defend-my-currency at all costs success story.
Because I can show you loads of cases where Governments tried to defend their monetary regime (let it be Gold, Dollar or Euro Standard) and their economies collapsed, and they ended up leaving their monetary regime anyway.
Reluctance of loosing monetary restrictions causes either long crisis. Compare Argentina's performance, until it let go of its currency board in the first term of 2002. Argentina is specially relevant, because it did face deflation, and persistently high unemployment.
For an even clearer picture, compare the US and Britain during the 30s, the early devaluation of the pound clearly pushing production up, and the case is clearer in the US.
Or analyze Latvia's performance in the 2008 crisis.

At 5/21/10 10:46 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: I'll have to look--been wanting boots. My boyfriend also has a thing for boots and wants me to have a pair. XD

BOOTS ARE VERY HOT.

At 5/22/10 06:50 PM, Malachy wrote: I have a ton of family over for graduation. Last night we went to some bars and they were all having "seniors night" and somehow that means cover charges. wtf.

graduated this morning. it was hot out but at least it didn't rain.

YAAAAAAAAAAY
*throws eggs and flour at him*

Srsly, congrats!
:D
(3 more years for me)

At 5/23/10 12:42 AM, RydiaLockheart wrote: It brings back memories of when I graduated undergrad.

Endearing story, rydia :'(
*hugs*

-------------------
Are irony and satire the best way to eradicate ignorant arguments?

Dunno, but it's fun as hell:D

At 5/23/10 09:34 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 5/22/10 08:36 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: Buy Euros, my friends!

???

Buy gold!

That is also obviously a sound plan; the first rule of investment is buying whatever is increasing in value, nevermind the nature, fundamentals or liquidity of the asset you are buying.

At 5/23/10 01:03 PM, Gunner-D wrote:

At 5/22/10 08:36 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: Clearly, when the dollar hyperinflation finally takes off, and the entire American economy ends up collapsing.

Like all games, there is always a reset button.

I fully agree; if there is something to learn about the recent crisis, is that a single currency for completely disproportionately, economically inflexible region is the way to go. Just look at the greek celebrations, with people gaining the streets, dancing around bonfires, citizens and authorities together celebrating the monetary union.

At 5/23/10 04:30 PM, Ericho wrote: Oh really? Then how many people can you name that are Chinese (in living) in comparison to Americans living? I can think of hundreds, if not thousands of living Americans, but nowhere near that many living Chinese. Why are there are a lot more American biographies on Wikipedia than on Chinese biographies? They should have four times the famous people we have. In proportion, they are actually pretty bad at making famous people.

Why yes, the lack of a Chinese Paris Hilton is a common concern among Chinese officials; an issue that puzzles the economists that study the Chinese economy.

At 5/23/10 06:51 PM, Patton3 wrote: I have to differ in that the United states was not the first industrial power. The British Empire was the pioneer in that department, and the United States simply surpassed them; to our credit, we became the largest ever, yet we were not the first.

First, as in #1,the top of the world, go yankees, god bless america, etc.
But let's go on discussing secondary statements that are mostly irrelevant to the argumentative line, or even better, one that is completely unrelated: Should Milito replace Tevez in the national team, given his recent success at Inter?

At 5/23/10 09:05 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You could say that the US was the first post-industrial power.

Could Messi play as a 10?

At 5/23/10 09:18 PM, X-Gary-Gigax-X wrote: Yeah, but China has no soul. Having capitalism is well and good anywhere, but the effect is doubled when you have a God-fearing, charitable, upbeat, thrifty and "Can do!" attitude like America has.

China has none of those virtues.

Exactly: culture is key. For example, look at what an Australian manager told the government officials of a poor country he was visiting in 1915:

'My impression as to your cheap labour was soon disillusioned when I saw your people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to see your men at workmade me feel that you are a very satisfied easy-going race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was impossible to change the habits of national heritage.'

This country, Japan, will never achieve economic development.

-----------
Re-reading my notes, uh, there's a little mistake about the graph I posted (not that anybody cares to verify the sources, anyway): the Series are inverted, where it says "US", it should read "China" and vice versa. Instead of taking the effort of reinterpret the facts, I will proceed to post another graph that will surely prove the point I am trying to make, ie "Beware sinners! The monetary Armageddon is imminent!"

This is the monetary base of the US. See how it spiralls out of control after the crisis? The US is PRINTING MONEY. And not precisely a penny or two, we're talking more than

ONE
THOUSAND
BILLION
DOLLARS!

This DIRECTLY CAUSES INFLATION, as anyone with a basic notion of Economics knows.

In this dire times, we should remember the words of a key inflation fighter: Milton Friedman, who said:

remember kids: quoting famous dead people makes you look smarter.

"By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some. The sight of this arbitrary rearrangement of riches strikes not only at security, but at confidence in the equity of the existing distribution of wealth. Those to whom the system brings windfalls . . . become 'profiteers', who are the object of the hatred of the bourgeoisie, whom the inflationism has impoverished not less than the proletariat. As the inflation proceeds . . . all permanent relations between debtors and creditors, which form the ultimate foundation of capitalism, become so utterly disordered as to be almost meaningless."

Friedman, Milton, "Human Action" Pages 202-203

Sorry, forgot sauce:

China M2:
2007,2008,2009

US:
all from here.

In the US' Golden Age, the country was not only the first industrial power, but also the only one that could maintain a rational monetary system. The dollar then became the currency of reserve, that that foreigners chose to save in. Nowadays, there is a new power in the horizon, China. While the US runs constant fiscal, trade deficits, and prints money, China has reserves in the trillions, and grows like no other country. The careful country rises, the careless one falls.
This carelessness is evident in the management of every nation's most important asset: their currency. While the festive fed has been printing money like crazy for the last years, the Chinese have reacted to the crisis quite differently. They have expanded their monetary stocks during the most pressing moments of the recession, but they are now in a path of moderation back again. The Fed, on the other hand, pushes the thread further, apparently, the authorities are pushing for 3-digit money growth. The graphs are self-explanatory.

When will the monetary madness end? Clearly, when the dollar hyperinflation finally takes off, and the entire American economy ends up collapsing.
Buy Euros, my friends!

Given the problem the original producers are facing, clearly the State should intervene. Not because I favor price regulations, or the elimination of competition, but because the legal system is simply not working: the "fake chocolate" producers are clearly stealing from the original producers, stealing their most valuable asset: reputation.
A simple way to solve this would be to create a certificate that would show which chocolate is really craft-work, and which is a poor imitation of it.

At 5/16/10 12:10 AM, Imperator wrote:
Although as a philologist I must say I'm appalled at the misspelling of the music genre "crap". I mean, I understand the C is silent but I see no reason why people leave it off entirely.....

LIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS

When I was turning 17 my frontal teeth starting pressing into each other. I went to the dentist, got Xray (actually, a paronamic thingy), and it was my upper wisdom teeth. The ones below were also there, and they were going to come out in an awful way (45° angle) so they ended up taking them all. First dental intervention I had in my life. The process was ok, but the post surgery was PAAAAAAINNNNN.

But well, now I'm ok.

SM, Involuntary unmeployment in free markets exists, Keynes did not write in a unionized world that took place after WW2.
It's also ridiculous to blame the government's monetary for economic cycles, these have taken place since the industry developed, way before the possibility of monetary intervention crossed an economist's mind.
Thirdly, in order to properly understand what you mean by "manipulation of the money supply".

At 5/11/10 10:12 AM, morefngdbs wrote: There are some rural places in Nova Scotia, where ... ummmm outsiders or as they cal them here CFA's are really unwelcome & people who have tried to buy property there & build business's etc. have been literally shot at, fire bombed etc.

Reminds me of pre railroad England. Well, any pseudo feudal region.

At 5/11/10 06:09 PM, Imperator wrote:

At 5/10/10 05:04 PM, fli wrote: Go to craig's list...

Of course. Danke!

That intensive German course paid off! =D

At 5/11/10 06:17 PM, SkunkyFluffy wrote: Weirdly enough, one way to see how good a neighborhood in DC is to see how many Starbucks there are. Starbucks does a LOT of research into crime rates and socioeconomic factors before they open a shop. If there are zero Starbucks in walking distance, it is probably not a safe neighborhood. I know it sounds strange, but it's true.

That's... awesome economics knowledge. I shall use it in future microeconomic discussions.
Thank you, miss.
*bows*

That explains why the only starbucks I know is in Palermo.
Going to Starbucks is funny, there's a lot of Americans and foreigners, with their expensive electronic devices, and all the employees speak this funny Mexican Spanish. But it's quite costly, I have to pay like 3 tolls to get to BA, endure the awful traffic, and pay the rather high starbucks prices. That's why my family and I go once every three months or so.

At 5/9/10 08:50 PM, amaterasu wrote:

At 5/9/10 08:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: To what extent is the United States contributing to this bailout? I know for a fact the majority of Europe is picking up most of the tab, but what of other Western nations?

Unless we in some way contributed to the events leading up to this fiasco, hopefully $0. We have our own shit to worry about, let the EU take care of it.

I believe the US will chip in around 50 billion or so. It's not because it's your fault, but because it is in your interest not to have Greece fall.

Anyway, for what I've read, a possible solution without leaving the euro would be to...
DROP
THE
INFLATION BOMB,

The idea is simple: the ECB starts printing money. This money will lower interest rates, inducing economic growth. This will push the ok economies (Germany, France) to moderate inflation levels (5%). Then the Greek real debt will be reduced, and so would its real salaries! :D

Problem solved! :D

Now gimme the nobel prize >=(

At 5/10/10 10:58 AM, Ravariel wrote: *60 ft x 10 ft

my bad... math fail still, very small. my bedroom alone in my apartment here is 10x12, so 120 sq ft, the theres a second bedroom a bath and a half, kitchen and living space. 600 is doable I suppose if you're talking about a studio without (many) walls, but it still seems small.

Nah
Two bedrooms, with bed, wardrobe, pc desk (and one with extra desk), bathroom, and living/dining room/kitchen with sofa, tv, book shelf, and a dining table for six. That's 450 sq feet.

And well, the 600 one has also two bedrooms, a bigger bathroom (yay big bathtub!) a bigger living room/dining room, a kitchen, and a balcony.

Dad has also bought a studio in BA, which is 27 sq meters big, 300 sq feet.

At 5/9/10 01:42 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 5/4/10 02:24 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 5/4/10 12:06 PM, Proteas wrote: The home that I grew up in was barely 1200 square feet, and it was barely able to accomodate the 4 of us. I'm having a hard time imagining 2 people occupying a space less than half that very comfortably.

It's probably a low estimate actually, since I'm not great at eyeballing floor area. I'll take some measurements tonight and figure out what it actually is.

;;;
Wow ! you guy's sound absolutely cramped up ! ! ! !

The apartment I was raised in with my mom, dad and brother was (is) 42m^2= 450 sq feet.
=(

My dad got a new one that's 600 sq feet big =)

Population levels are pretty much irrelevant in the climate change discussion; that's why the US polluted much more than China (well, until recently); it's all about the type of economic activity that is being used.
The whole climate change issue is just a huge market failure. The legal system created by the liberal dutch in the 16th century did not define property rights on pollution. A Global organization should auction pollution rights per year, so as to make clear to businesses that the resource they are using is limited (ie clean air, water and soil) so that they use it accordingly. Moreover, green businesses would start actively cleaning the environment,so as to produce this newly defined good.

At 4/27/10 02:43 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 4/26/10 07:58 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: Yes, and the global economy would also stagnate horrendously.

Yeah but there would be less people, so it wouldn't matter.

Increasing returns on scale.

I think what we should be looking to do is flatten out the population and work on more efficient resource use. After all, in the long term, the only sustainable population growth rate is zero.

Right, that's why we constantly face malthusian traps.
OR scientific development has been much faster than population growth, despite the increasing acceleration of it.

We're getting the whole week off, during the 25th, because of the 200 anniversary of the first local government!

At 5/6/10 02:31 PM, The-universe wrote: Here's what's going to happen.

Greece will either such the finances from neighbouring countries until they're all bankrupt or it'll be kicked out of Europe.

Greece can't make the rest of europe go bankrupt, it is too small.

Either way, I'm soooo happy we don't use the Euro.

Yeah, devaluations are fun.

At 5/4/10 09:53 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: I'm thinking along the lines of... had they not been on the Euro foreign lenders probably would have stopped lending to them sooner than latter.

Had they not been in the Euro, this crisis wouldn't have happened, since their money would've been devalued against the Euro. This would fix both their fiscal and employment issue.

And of course when Greece gets bailed out, I'm confident that Spain and others will likely follow, once they know that there will be no real negative consequences for living beyond your means.

That's blatantly false, the Greek bail-out is clearly not free of consequences, that's what the riots are all about. The Greek Government and people will have to face a terrible expenditure reduction, which will make the GDP plummet, and the unemployment soar. And this is merely the beginning; this is Argentina 2001 all over again.

I believe that, unless the Euro governments pump Greece with capital, fast, and do not ask for so strict Govt expenditure reduction, Greece will

1) default its debt
2) lose the euro

2' switch governments?

3) Finance the expenditure with the printing press. This will not be inflationary, because of current unemployment. The devalued new currency will also push towards unemployment through exports, but mostly through a demand switch, from foreign to local. Imports could easily fall by 50%
However, the initial impact will not be expansionary, due to the shock to the financial markets; the devaluation will push GDP down as well, some prices (foreign goods) will adjust, a jump in prices (again, not inflation) will take place. This will reduce consumption initially, increase profit margins for businessmen, and will be an incentive to investment. The government will probably use its now lax monetary policy to finance assistance programs to mitigate the economic impact to the poorest individuals.

After the initial shock, the economy will boom.
Ta da!

Anyway, that's how it happened here.

For what I've been reading, Greece is the US + Gold Standard (Euro). They need a massive devaluation to pull their economy out of the dump, yet they can't, because they have a fixed exchange rate (the euro). The slump has made their deficit spiral out of control, so now they have to raise taxes and cut spending, which will make the slump worse. Deflation is to be feared, so their already high debt will increase in real value.

It's in moments like these, that I'm glad we went off the dollar standard in 2002.

In the US political spectrum, a filthy communist, in the Argentinian one, a filthy neoliberal who wants to privatize his mother.

I'm not fond of labels, really.

Well, Belgium has a history of being politically unstable, switching hands from european power to the other. However, these crisis have not really hindered the economic development of the country. I think it's no crisis unless there's 25% unemployment rate, so I wouldn't worry about your continuous political struggle.
On the specific topic of splitting the country in two, it's really preposterous. Can't the right see that it is the EXACT opposite position Europe and the rest of the world is going? Even if it happened,it would be totally irrelevant, once all the countries merge into one single entity.