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At 8/8/12 12:38 PM, Evil-Dog wrote:

PM me if you're interested.

Although you have said you want people to pm you for more information. you should provide some more information here. That way people can get a better idea of what you are looking for before committing. It'll be easier for you and for us. Win-win.

Wahoo!

Well, you certainly lived up to the expectation of a syfy like story. I had a good laugh.

At 8/5/12 06:50 PM, mhzinski wrote: Considering I feel like this entire piece is a subtle exhortation for me to suck less...

Aren't we all trying to suck less? Anyway, I realized that you would most likely be the first person to comment on this thread--thanks, by the way--but it's not really directed at anyone. You're right that it is more of an essay to vent frustration. I found a problem and tried to offer a solution. Honestly, I found your conclusion of my conclusion to be an oversimplification of the entire essay and not necessarily related to my conclusion (the penultimate paragraph).

Hm. Obviously I wanted people to agree with what I say and to follow my logic, but this leaves me to re-examine the strength of the argument.

Thanks again, dude.

P.S. I think The Beatles and Led Zeppelin are all right, just not that great (The Beatles got way better toward the end of their career).

At 8/5/12 06:12 PM, DeftAndEvil wrote:

...And you know it.

Correction. Goddamn, I forgot ellipsis don't translate into the NG forum.

Again, they happen all the time and they are a big part of current poetry, which is why I am bringing them to your attention. Unfortunately, some ideas, such as post-apocalyptic setting, have become so prevalent in current fiction that they too are cliches. I know that sometimes stories or poems that rely on a cliche can be good or successful. I admit that "Love Poem" sucks, and in fact, the only positive quality I can think of is the satire; I'm sure that if this poem was written 50 years earlier, it could have been a hit on the radio. I can also imagine that there are several people out there who think this is a good poem. After all, something has not always been a cliché and there was a point were it was considered original. But, "Love Poem" heavily uses cliches and for the time being, it is best just to completely avoid any cliched rhymes. In addition, it is best to avoid cliches in prose as well. After all, you have to think of your reader and you don't want them to read something that they've seen a thousand times before.

If you are working on a poem and see a cliched rhyme, the best thing to do is to ask yourself if the second line has a purpose other than to complete a rhyme. The second line can be excised without losing any meaning. Poetry relies on structure and rhythm, but meaning and theme should never, never (never!) be of second importance. It is better to have reason and no rhyme than to have rhyme and no reason. Of course, it is even better to have both, but that is a feat reserved for a master poet.

âEU¦And you know it.

~

This is an essay that I wrote a while ago when I just felt like writing a bunch of essays about writing. As you can see, I don't approve of cliched rhymes and I attempt to argue why they suck. Everyone has use them, and I go back and raed some old scribbles in my notebook and constantly scratch out phrases like "all the while." Poetry is important and it is a big part of the Writing Forum. Although no one really says it, cliched rhymes are a problem, and I hope after reading "Love Poem," you may come to some sort of accord.

It is an essay and I hope it is read and reviewed as such. As usual, thanks for reading.

Love Poem: An Exercise in Originality, An Essay

1. When I look at you, a beautiful girl
Words will never describe this intense love
That is unrivaled in all of the world--
Unrivaled up, in the heavens above.
5. We will sing and dance and love for a while
Since you are my closest and dearest friend
When we're together all I do is smile;
Our love lasts forever, without an end.
9. When I'm with you there is always a way
When it is wrong you are always what is right
I always need you, every single day;
You know what to do, all day and all night.

13. I have showed you how I feel, through this rhyme,
My love for you is real. Rhyme rhymes with time?

~

What you have just read is a sonnet I wrote, with the not-so-original title, "Love Poem." As you might have surmised, it is purposefully weak and stale, despite the ostensibly romantic language and mood of the poem. It took some effort to write; it was a challenge to compose something that lame. Based upon the millions of sappy love poems available, and published here on the NG Writing Forum, you can bet that the main problem of this poem, and others like it, is just how damn derivative it is.

Writing something original that is also worthwhile (not some story about a man, who is really a woman, who is really a horse, who is really a broom) seems impossible. Virtually everything has been done before, and with the advent of increased indie publishing and online publishing, stories and poems number in the millions. No matter how esoteric, absurd, or nihilistic your story is, it will resemble something else. Even if you combine genres and somehow manage to create a plot that no one has seen before, people will always find similarities to other works. However, I don't think this is a problem. In fact, who cares? Lots of good stories--hell, great stories, awesome stories--exist. If your story resembles one of them in quality, you won't hear me complaining.

Well, that's not really true. Being original is important.

A working definition for originalis something that is first or before other things. Something original is the origin. In other words: new. I don't like that definition, especially when it concerns writing. But, original also means that it is not copied. So, as long as the inspiration, effort, and creativeness is from you, from within, it is original. If you created it, it is original. I like that second definition a lot and it is something we should always remember when trying to be "original."

Speaking of definitions, I'd like to define the word cliche. A cliche is something, usually a phrase or word but can also be an idea or element, that has been overused to the point where it is weak, ineffective, and ultimately meaningless. Basically, a cliche is anything but original. You can guess what a cliched rhyme is.

Well, I'll tell you what cliched rhymes are. They are a serious problem. I mean, they occur with such frequency in poetry and lyrics that it is pervasive. Seriously, these happen all the time and are everywhere. They are in old poems and old songs (any genre, be it rock, blues, hip-hop, pop. The Beatles were guilty, Led Zeppelin was guilty. Even good bands like Pink Floyd were guilty), and they definitely plague current poetry and lyric. If you listen to classic rock radio, or pop radio, each song is guiltier than the last in terms of cliched rhymes.

Cliches exist because they are easy to conjure. They exist because at one point, they were fresh or clever or even provocative. "She's as bright as the sun." Holy crap--the guy who originally wrote that must have felt awesome. Besides being a current cliche, there's nothing wrong with that sentence. In fact, it is pretty neat. It's got wordplay, imagery, figurative language, and it is pretty provocative--which girl wouldn't want to be compared to the greatest celestial body in the Solar System? The genius of that cliche was probably the reason people kept using it. As a writer, I become infatuated with girls pretty easily (it's funny because it's true). So when I am pondering of something swell to say, the first thing that comes to my mind is more-or-less heaven, angel, goddess--whatever. These are easy to come up with and are readily available for any fool to employ. As such, they aren't as powerful as they ought to be. So any girl who has even a bit of literary acumen won't be smitten by "Love Poem," and goddamn! I hope they wouldn't be. Using cliched rhymes, and cliches in general, is lazy writing.

Poetry is a challenge. You want your poem to look and feel good, but you also want it to sound good. Rhyming is aesthetically pleasing and when a rhyme is expected but ignored, it can be jarring. For example, take lines 2 and 4. We all know that the word abovewas going to be used to rhyme with love, and if I didn't rhyme it like that, it would have sounded off. It's not easy to perfect-rhyme with love. You've got above, dove, and shove. Since love is such a strong and widely covered topic, it is going to be the focus of a line and you can see how that couplet can be easily put together. Love-above and love-dove are two obvious choices, which is why people use this rhyme all the time.

There are way more cliched rhymes by the way: mirror-clearer, laugh/cry-live/die, pretty-city, fire-desire, tomorrow-sorrow-borrow, ear-hear-clear, seem-dream, heart-start-apart, school-fool-rule, make-take-break. If you listen to music (doesn't matter if it's popular or not) you can probably pick up a few more.

Please re-read "Love Poem." You can see how cliched it is. It was really easy to put together since all I did was take cliched rhymes and write the poem around them. The poem is mostly filler, which is why cliched rhymes should be avoided whenever possible. The two biggest clichés by far are way-day and night-right. I can imagine that poets or songwriters write a line, which ends in the word day. They need to rhyme something to give the poem a good sound. How many words rhyme with way? Bay, cay, gay, hay, jay, lay, may, nay, pay, ray, say, yay. That's just me going through the alphabet. But if you listen or read these poems, they pretty much always choose way. It's too tempting and too easy, and it doesn't help that it sounds nice and makes sense.

Take lines 9 and 11. Now, anything could have been after that and it can be concluded by the word day, since it is such a familiar word. The whole purpose of line 11 is to rhyme with line 9. That's it. It may have a bit of meaning, such as the message of companionship is reinforced, but I know and you know it has no point. This goes against poetry, where every stanza, every line, every word, every syllable has a semantic purpose. Take lines 10 and 12. When one thinks about the night, he usually thinks about partying or mischief. Either way, rhyming it with rightis easy and it makes sense. But the second line is filler and it is redundant. I could have just as well wrote that "you are always right all the time," but "day and night" fits and it sounds good.

The problem is that the second line becomes empty, weak, and meaningless because of the cliched rhyme. The second line bends to the whim of the first. When you write a poem and a line ends in night, your mind suddenly snaps to right. Then, you just have to find a way to connect the two by filling it with--well--filler. I'm positive these cliched rhymes and connections were great and provocative at one point, but not anymore. I repeat: the problem is not the use of these oft-coupled words. Rather, the problem is that their use is lazy, and filler. The second line (or the rhyme) is not an independent thought or emotion; it relies too much on the original line. Lines 3,4, 7, 8, 11, 12,13 and 14 are pretty much pointless (and the poem itself has no substance, so they are worse than that). Cliched rhymes can be excised completely and the poem will retain the original meaning. They are redundant, cheap, and worthless.

At 8/1/12 03:30 PM, RiniculousRoot wrote: It's very hard in today's day and age to create something that doesn't already exist ...

You can change this with your characters.

I don't think so. In the millions upon millions of stories published, in print or electronically, the same character types reoccur ALL THE TIME. Anyway, it's not about making the characters likable (you need conflict, after all); it's about making them human. I don't think sacrificing the plot for a good cast makes sense (if you have the ability to create a good cast, you should be able to write a good plot). Anyway, theme is the most important (I think). As long as the reader takes something away and believes your story was worthwhile, I think you have succeeded.

At 8/1/12 04:13 AM, Enamour wrote:

Nobel for literature is very much like the Nobel for peace; Barack Obama wins it more often that you'd expect.

I expected Obama to have 0 Nobel prizes for literature. He has 0. He has not won it more than I'd expected. Nobel Prize for literature is not like the Nobel Prize for peace.

Anyway, I always find the best literature in the Classics section of a library. If you find an author you really like, you can go find more of their books. Also, study the history of literature and different types of genres/movements. Whatever you're reading will undoubtedly give some big names that everyone should read. Usually, it starts with Socrates and Plato. One author I cannot recommend enough is Jorge Luis Borges. Read Ficciones . It is tough to read, but I felt like a better writer when I was finished.

Well, I don't think the Writing Forum is on anyone's mind except maybe the frequenters; we still have to fix copy-paste ourselves, we can't edit our posts, we don't even get an aura! So, you are absolutely right; we have to become a cohesive self-sustaining population before we can do anything.

The cause is what we've all been saying all along: there are more writers than readers. There are a couple regulars who I expect to see commenting or posting a couple times a week, but for the most part, the threads and posts are made by newcomers who are NG forum browsers who saw the Writing Forum and went "hey! I think I can do that."

Then, this is what happens: they post a lame story or poem with about 10 minutes (about) of effort. Then, someone comments on it, or a regular gives a good review to build from. The OP isn't satisfied with the attention s/he receives and we never hear from him/her again.

I wish NG would just give the Writing Forum the amenities mentioned above, instead of a Lit Portal (at least for now). I don't understand programming or web design very well, but I can't imagine that it would be difficult. Also, I think that a comment/review/thread ratio system should be placed. That is, you can create n threads only if you have kn reviews and 2kn comments. I think that 10:5:1 is a good ratio. Of course, this all leads to filtering and administrating the comments and reviews and the posts and it just becomes one big ol' mess.

It's a problem, and I thank you Deathcon for addressing it and providing some pretty smart ways to alleviate and ultimately rectify it, but honestly, I am pretty pessimistic about the whole thing. Unless the Writing Forum becomes marketable or we have a sudden influx of team players, I don't see it happening. Jeez....

By the way, my drawing is alright, and I just bought a tablet and I am learning to animate. I want to take a college class for flash animation to make learning much easier. I have a good story I want to create and I finished writing the first two episodes as a script. The point is that I want to have a lot of practice before I start that project, so several months down the road I will be looking for scripts and stories from here. I will try to get as many members involved. I do recommend that people learn other skills, such as drawing, coding, animating, composing/playing music, etc. and getting the Writing Forum involved. Writing a script is something I can do for myself, but I think giving members a chance to participate will help bring the Writing Forum to light.

This is also a problem if you use special characters on your phone or mobile device. But, NG doesn't have a mobile site, so I don't do that often.

At 7/18/12 02:35 PM, BloodCoveredWolf wrote:

At 7/18/12 11:30 AM, starwarsjunkie wrote:

At 7/18/12 02:29 AM, BloodCoveredWolf wrote:

Hey guys give me a break im still going through high school barely going to the 10th so don't judge me as if im already in college i still got more things to learn

Let that be your first lesson: put more effort to produce something more than a lame platitude. Clean it up and spend more than 2 minutes on it.

At 7/15/12 09:49 PM, DeftAndEvil wrote:

At 7/15/12 02:55 PM, Jmayer20 wrote: ...

...

Also also, it's not really a big deal and there's not a rule against it, but when you post stories, you can either post it directly into your post. If it is too long to fit (that's what she said! woo!), please post it in your NG page and post a link to it here. You know, just to keep things organized and consistent.

Writing Forum FTW!

At 7/15/12 02:55 PM, Jmayer20 wrote: ...

Dude, I think you are missing the point. First, when you post a story, please post more context. Tell us what the story is about (a synopsis, which is pretty much a summary of plot but also theme); you sorta did that. But, you also have to post what you are looking for: critique, reviews, help with a draft. You didn't really do that, so I assume that you just want attention.

Second, you have to be willing to accept critique, especially if it's constructive or insightful. While Deathcon's and mh's critiques weren't pleasant, I definitely think they are accurate and helpful. If you are a beginning writer, you have to be able to accept constructive criticism, instead of just pleasant criticism. I've been here for over a year and Deathcon's critiques have always been spot-on and usually identify the main weakness of a story; I've only seen mh for about 2 weeks, and that dude has definitely been good with his criticism as well (even though his are pretty insulting; I think "unadulterated" is a better word, though).

Third, please don't make excuses. It doesn't really matter how old you are. If you are a nascent writer, accepting criticism will do you good; learning to use it will do you wonders. Also, you should be thankful that people took the time to read your story, but also put in effort to tell you why it fails, instead of just giving you a meaningless and unhelpful comment.

Back to the point: you have to help us help you; we are trying to help you, even if you don't think we are.

I haven't read the story (honestly, something titled "The Genetic War" just seems boring; you need a better title), but Deathcon, mh, and starwarsjunkie have all posted what appear to be thorough and insightful criticism. You are one lucky son-of-a-gun.

At 7/9/12 09:44 PM, Complete wrote: ...

Although you've taken the story in a new direction, it is not necessarily better. I find the whole thing tasteless and just not funny. I don't find it portentous or sincere either. I think that is the main problem for the thing: a connection with the audience in general.

Seriously, please try to strengthen any future posts.

Dude. First of all, please type in coherent sentences. I can decipher the gibberish you posted in this thread; whoever is telling you that your writing is good is leading you down a treacherous path of inflated-ego and poor writing. Don't be mad (or petty) when someone points out the egregious flaws in your writing when you present it in a forum focused on writing and its merits.

But, I see that it is too late for your oblivious ego, so I also say goodbye; I will never open another one of your posts (I've learned my lesson). Peace.

In all honestly, you sound like an ungrateful self-important douche, which is a horrible way to solicit "helpful" critique. But, as you presented yourself in the OP, I think you are after attention rather than constructive criticism.

In more honesty, the story is lame, stilted, and just generally deprived of literary merit. There has been some solid, insightful critique for this story here. I highly recommend you check it out if you hope to improve.

At 7/9/12 01:32 AM, Complete wrote:

Three words: didactic as hell.

Furthermore, the narrative moves along at a crawling pace and nothing is really explained except that whites are poor for some reason and non-whites are exploiting the system. The characters are stale and lame and zero conflict has been developed. Style and voice are shoddy at best. If you want to get a message across, you do it with tact and a strong narrative. The whole thing is a rambling mess.

The only benefit I got from reading your story was a chuckle on a high school being named after Jesse Jackson. I guess you could go that route and make it a funny story, but it will probably be tasteless and sophomoric, as was the story.

So please, for the love of God, don't make four more parts until most (if not all) of these issues have been corrected or at least addressed.

At 7/4/12 08:44 PM, mhzinski wrote: ...

Yeah, I agree with this. Humility is part of the process of becoming a good writer. The dialogue was simple and that's it. There's nothing more to it and you can't act like there is. There's no grand ulterior meaning, dude. If you think there is, you are being esoteric.

Anyway, it's important to be original, but I don't think that was the problem here. If all these cliches and tropes didn't exist, your story would still fall flat. It is bare and has no substance or driving force--but then again, it could be because of the derivative nature of the story.

Originality is not really a factor in for me for anything on NG, unless you are straight-up stealing ideas or you are thinking about publishing this (are you? Doesn't really matter, though, ideas get recycled like crazy all the time in any medium). In the end, I don't care what it resembles, as long as you learn something along the way, something that can be incorporated into a new body of writing later. If your story is solid, I won't mind that it looks like something I've seen before. Keep writing, and I especially suggest you try exercises on the web to help you develop your writing skills and get your juices flowing.

Ahem--don't be florid and flowery (it's just filler) and don't be esoteric either. Exercises will help you discover your literary voice and style.

At 6/28/12 04:42 PM, Hellz-Yeah wrote: ...

Aside from the weird formatting, the only problem I see is that it is too crass. It's a very short monologue. There's no point in development or description; the only thing that matters is the exchange between the child and God (it seems pretty didactic as well, but the theme or message is what I am looking for). At first seems to be a treatment on loss, or maybe faith. But, it turns out to be a very lame (up to part three is where I thought it was all right). The only thing you can do is put more emotion into it, and maybe strengthen the tone and themes (if the themes were the point; I'm not so sure). There's really no amount of development you can add to make this better, without drastically changing what it is.

To expand on what mhzinski wrote:

This is a very short story and as such, you can't afford the luxuries of longer fiction, namely development. This feels more like an attempt at a word-picture, however, it is very weak. I feel like you are trying to do too much in such a short a space. The point of this story (from what I've gathered) is antiwar social commentary. And, you try to make this evident by pointing out the socioeconomic divide in some future setting. However, you also try to inject some character development (and some pop commentary--I'd take that out; it's too jarring). Also, the sudden revelation of the future is too egregious, and takes up too much space. The overall picture becomes muddled and unclear.

So, what I'd recommend is to focus on the setting and the details, and instead of trying to develop character (as mhzinski sorta said, the alcoholism doesn't add to anything and feels forced), and focus on the narrative voice and mood of the piece (also keep a very strong tone; it's social commentary so you can't be too apologetic). Also, there is too much telling; this isn't really useful advice, but your story really needs a kick in the pants, so to speak. Nothing really jumps out at the reader. The city, especially a crowded city (or a slum) feels dense and alive, like a cockroach nest (or wherever cockroaches hang out in the wild). You sorta introduce bestial imagery, but it never really goes anywhere. Finally, the characters feel like set pieces, so that needs work too.

Or, you can expand the story to about 2-5k words and try to grow the story. Either way; it's up to you.

At 6/25/12 07:52 AM, Chapter11 wrote: Just think how much easier it'd be if writers were actually treated with respect here and had our own portal and hub, rather than a half dead sub forum.

I don't know how it'd be easier. There'd just be a wave of half-assed stories from a flood of crappy writers. I can't imagine anyone receiving relevant, useful commentary, much less comprehensive and constructive criticism. I don't think NG is ready for a Lit Portal just yet.

At 6/25/12 01:24 AM, EKublai wrote:

Untitled Creepy Story by ScaryPicnic

Lovely details actually results in a creepy story, what a surprise. People looking to write creepy or scary stories, check this out.

He's impressed me before and he's impressed me again. This dude is highly recommended. Seriously, do yourself a favor.

At 6/24/12 05:51 PM, Orrion14 wrote:

I can't tell if you are serious, or if you are trolling, but this is barely a story and it is really, really corny. If you are serious, I'd be happy to provide an expanded critique.

At 6/24/12 02:53 PM, StarvingGamer wrote: Writers don't get recognized because people don't want to read.

We've always said that the Writing Forum has more writers than readers, which I believe is the crux to the success of a successful writing community. The Writing Forum has the most intelligent, well-cultured, and most diverse members than any other group/community on NG, except when people from General trickle in (Yes, that was an indirect insult, ha ha :D). I would like to see a self-sustaining, well-oiled Writing Forum with members who post a lot of work, and with at least 5 members providing helpful reviews, constructive criticism, and useful commentary. At the most, there is a lot of criticism and commentary.

Ok, dude. If you want attention you should start by commenting on other people's posts instead of just your own: this forum is comprised of more than one member, after all. There is a pretty close knit group of âEU regularsâEU who give good solid critiques on a whim, but if they see you around often, I'm sure they'll help you out no problem.

At 6/20/12 08:32 AM, Coop wrote:

I've never liked drugs, to be honest. I don't even take paracetamol, when I've got a headache. If I'm taking that sort of stuff, you know I'm really ill!

A few fast paced games on the PS3 tend to kick me into action, such as Dynasty Warriors or Wipeout. That works well and distracts me from potential writer's block. Then it's away, with a fresh brew and the keyboard lights up.

Yeah, man. Drugs don't really do anything, but I'm talking about marijuana and alcohol; if you can't write sober, why would you be able to write high/drunk? It won't do anything--trust me. I don't like coffee, but I'll drink a soda. The buzz is nice but won't really help you if you don't have a carefully planned idea.

Anyway, the thing I do is just write anything. I write micro stories that are about 100-200 words. They are usually exercises (read: incomplete and boring), but if I find something that works, I'll weave it into whatever I'm writing for real. I think a good rest is good too. I usually stay up really late writing something, but don't finish. While I am lying in bed, I'm thinking about the story, and when I wake, I feel good and ready to finish.

If you play an instrument, that also helps. Try writing a song. Just be creative and add to the momentum. I think we've all experience how it feels when you have the proverbial ball rolling. Holy crap! It's your best work and a lot of it.

At 6/21/12 12:24 AM, subject1337 wrote:

Ok. Well, it seems like the sole purpose of this story is for the plot twist at the end. The problem with that is that the whole story will suffer. And, if the story is poor, no one will care about the twist at the end. So, the obvious recommendation is for the plot, characterization, and conflict to be sound. We don't really have much information to go on, but the main premise of this story (which seems to be a typical cat and mouse chase) doesn't really make sense at face value. As Sharu said, if this is truly a story about psychosis, you want to focus on the protagonist.

However, twists are tricky. Just look at what happened to M. Night Shamalan.

At 6/16/12 04:24 AM, BigPen wrote: Hi guys.
Have you ever heard the word: surrealistic? It's short called surreal and it means that the story background doesn't make sense when I make it with the rest.

tinytim is right; this doesn't feel like surrealism. Surrealism also focuses on the subconscious and subtlety. This feels too forced and egregious; it feels like you are trying to be as cryptic and weird as possible. I think you should first develop your world and characters and plot, then move in with the surrealism and show how the world doesn't feel right, but it is.

At 6/18/12 10:49 AM, kolosos666 wrote: Hello everyone. So i was bored and decided to post some of my short stories on here. I hope you enjoy them, and do feel free to comment on them :D

Well, I didn't read your story, but I have to tell you that the Newgrounds BBS doesn't recognize indentations. So, you have to separate each paragraph with a double space (skip a line) like I'm about to do.

I will definitely consider reading it, but first accustom yourself to the forum and how stories are transcribed, so they are easier to read ("wall of texts"--where the story just looks like one big paragraph--are frowned upon). It will also help you garner some input from the regulars. At a very cursory glance, it seems that there is too much dialogue.