At 1/3/09 05:28 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
i do not support Palestinian violence against civilians (the use of locals as human shields should be considered violence against civilians), nor do i disagree with Israel's will to defend its citizens. but given that Israel is the only reasonable government in the region, the burden of ensuring human rights on either side falls on them.
does asking a terrorist organization, such as Hamas, to play fair make any sense?
Does it make sense? No. But what is the alternative? In an idiotic move demonstrating their holding the values of freedom and democracy higher than the actual prevention of violence, America demanded elections be held. And SURPRISE! Hamas won. Well it wasn't much of a surprise considering essentially every expert suggested that outcome. So we're in it now. Hamas is in charge and Israel's pissed off and neither side can hold a ceasefire for more than a fucking week, it seems (forgive my slight hyperbole). So there's obviously armed conflict. And honestly we don't expect Hamas to be anything but the hardcore jackasses they've shown themselves to be, and Israel's actions are FAR from condonable, but yet we have to hold both sides up to reasonable standards. Israel is responsible for this recent action, certainly, and I doubt there will be many people who will dispute that is an irresponsible overreaction that will likely cause significant collateral damage. But then, to hold them responsible for the actions of both sides, does that make any more sense?
this doesn't mean that counter-attacks should be banned, but rather that Israel cannot be allowed to become apathetic about civilian safety.
NOBODY should be allowed to become apathetic about civilian safety.
if any country would have the benefit of the doubt and the possibility to disregard the well being of civilians in a conflict zone it is Israel. it is simply a matter of assuring that Israel at no point forgets this.
I don't really think anyone has the (justified) possibility to disregard the well being of civilians in a conflict zone. Israel (I had to type that five times to get it right, I shouldn't post at 4 AM) is certainly justified in an armed response to the attacks from Gaza, but it can't disregard civilian safety concerns. Honestly I think this is simply a case of overkill, is the problem. This isn't going to solve the problem permanently, by any means, so it really just amounts to a case of Israel making an unnecessary level of response.
At 1/4/09 05:15 AM, Earfetish wrote:
We've been sending rockets to various places in the Middle East for far longer than 8 years. Should they level our countries too?
Hardly, but they certainly have a right to take action to prevent a repetition of those attacks. "Level[ing] our countries" would be a huge overreaction (not to mention one those nations aren't capable of currently, but I digress) which is, quite frankly, exactly what I believe IS happening. Israel has a right to protect themselves and take action to prevent future violence, however the assault against Gaza that is currently their response to the attacks that have been made against them is a ridiculous show of unnecessary power. It's equivalent to someone punching you, and you shooting them in the spleen as a response. You have the right to defend yourself, but overkill is overkill. It seems to me that the situation between Gaza and Israel is a very delicate one with frightening potential for escalation. I do wish people could learn to use to diplomacy or, at the very least, learn to keep a ceasefire for like five fucking minutes. I swear every time they sign something over there the agreement is broken five days later. To Israels credit, they're almost never the ones to shoot first (so to speak) but still, the violent reactions they've been having are hardly productive and are quite honestly despicable.
Y'know what fuck the state of Israel it shouldn't even fucking exist;
That's a ridiculous assertion. The state of Israel was established when a mandate was set to separate the country of Palestine into two smaller states: Israel (a home for the Jewish refugees of world war two (who have throughout history longed to return to what is now Israel), and the new Palestine. Where would YOU have put all of the Jewish world war two refugees? I would understand if you say the Palestinians deserved a larger share of the place or something, but why would you say Israel shouldn't exist?
funny we condemn Iran or wherever for human rights abuses and support Israel leveling a city
If you've been paying attention at all you should have the cynical realism to know it's all politics over there anyway.
if the rest of the world stopped giving either side aid then they'd soon figure out that they have to get along or kill each other; we're funnelling money into both sides so they can kill each other and it's disgusting
Yes but we can't exactly cut off aid from both sides. For one thing just because this would cause destruction and casualties to skyrocket doesn't mean either side would stop. And for another thing the only reason why you're suggesting this is because they'd hopefully realize how much more damage would get done, but this is also the main problem. As moral people we can't just cut off aid and let all of the destruction that's all but inevitable over there go untended.
yes Hamas shouldn't be firing rockets
Which brings me to another point: Hamas must be pretty stupid. I mean, honestly, they've been firing missiles at Israel for a while now. They've seen what Israel is willing to do back. Why the hell do they keep doing stuff like this? I mean this may be the worst attack (debatable) but it's certainly not the first.
yes Hamas knew Israel would respond disproportionately, that doesn't make the disproportionate response acceptable;
No it doesn't. I don't think very many people are suggesting that what Israel's done is "acceptable," but the question is are they justified in taking military action in response to the attacks they've received. I say yes.
y'know if religion didn't suck then Israelis could relocate to the Nevada Desert
Actually they were almost given Alaska. But (and I'll admit I'm not even close to objective on this) you have to understand this from the Jewish-Israeli perspective too. It's a major part of their belief, and something they've been yearning for throughout their history. And now if Palestine had been a friendlier place in the first place this wouldn't really have been much of a problem. Given the situation, however, I don't think it's unreasonable to give a piece of Palestine away. Now the size and location of the land however, I'm not so sure about, but that's all unimportant now.