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On people using human nature, namely greed, as an objection to communism or even an argument, read on.

You should know that, as with nature, the free marked, or the society ruled by the marked, does nothing without a purpose. For example; in nature, atoms goes together and creates a molecule, because of magnetic energy. In the society we live in, everything is done according to capital, money. If anything is profittable, even in the short term, it is done. It is like an energy that drives us all, or every corporation that is.

Think about what is proffitable. What makes corporations grow, and would they do what it takes to grow? In most cases, yes, they would. Imagine you were a big shot businessman of some sort, selling a worldvide product. What would you earn the most from, just imagine, in the whole world? Greed.

Greed is merely a product of the anarchic economical situation we see today. As long as the marked, or society, does not radically change, greed will always exist.

Lol. Yeah, try living on 3$ a week.

[quote]Another point: My statement that the state's distribution of my labor is against my individual right to my own labor.[/quote]

If your a worker living in South Asia, creating 20 t-shirts a day, being paid 3$ a week... well... you get my point.

At 11/7/04 04:08 PM, Iteki-San wrote:

At 11/7/04 04:04 PM, red_skunk wrote:

At 11/7/04 03:36 PM, Iteki-San wrote: The first false postulate of socialism is that all labor is exploitation when the state does not control the means of distribution of that labor.

How is that false?

Okay, let me give you an example. I open a business, just me, no one else. Now, I want to sell t-shirts... not just any t-shirt, though... the best t-shirts in the world, they last for 30 years, never get stained, and can't tear. I want to sell these things to make a profit, and the state is going to tell me how much profit I can make. This was my labor, and I am not being exploited by anyone, until the state comes in and demands that I give the fruits of my labor to another against my will.

Another point: My statement that the state's distribution of my labor is against my individual right to my own labor.

DenDude

If your shirt got popular enough, (as it should, according to how you described it :D) you'd need houndreds of thousands of workers to produce enough of it. That is what is meant with labour, not someone creating the prototype of a shirt. Although it may very well have been your idea, someone else makes it.

That's right, Bush want's you to go fuck yourself... Here: http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov

A true christian, indeed...

If I were in america (unless I would get propagandized and shit) I would of voted on the Socialist party.

China has the bigget infantry army in the world, its really badass, and it would prolly fuck up the US army pretty hard.

"Enlightened" yeah right... That site is even worse than the republi-fucking-cans and democrats. We should ban all misguiding party names, seriously.

I live in Norway and I agree with you Slizor. I have also visited the US and have family there. The conditions are better in Scandinavia than the US. I have heard that the numbers of poor are raising and soon 1/3 of the people in US are below poverty line. And while the (then socialist) norwegian Labour Party were in power Norway was the wealthiest country in the world.

Its pathetic theres only two parties most people vote for. Im neither. I am some kind of socialist animal. Cheetahs rule, I bet they are a socialists...

And someone posted this link about Grenada, I dunno who, anyway credits to that guy. You should REALY consider checking it out.
http://www.fpif.org/papers/grenada2003.html

I quote:
"On March 13, 1979, in an almost bloodless coup, a young attorney named Maurice Bishop seized power with the backing of the New Jewel Movement. They proceeded to impose an ambitious socialist program on the island inspired at least as much by Bob Marley as Karl Marx. In the next four years, while most Caribbean nations suffered terribly from worldwide recession, Grenada achieved a 9% cumulative growth rate. Unemployment dropped from 49% to 14%. The government diversified agriculture, developed cooperatives, and created an agri-industrial base that led to a reduction of the percentage of food and total imports from over 40% to 28% at a time when market prices for agricultural products were collapsing worldwide."

"The literary rate, already at a respectable 85%, grew to about 98%, comparable to or higher than most industrialized countries. A free health care and secondary education system were established, the number of secondary schools tripled, and scores of Grenadans received scholarships for studies abroad. There were ambitious programs in the development of the fishing industry, handicrafts, housing, tourism, the expansion of roads and transport systems, and the upgrading of public utilities."

At 1/5/04 05:07 PM, JamsterBoyoRock wrote: Experiment in Communism? Animal Farm.

I just want to point out that Animal Farm is a book solely about the conservative state-socialist system, AKA Stalinist system. Its not about communism in general, or socialism for that matter. Want to read about socialism, read Lenin or Marx.

Lets not judge him for his ideologies, but for his actions. If he killed thousands like it says, he deserves more than 30 years at least. But just for being a marxist, and lets remember marxism is the most loving theory there is, he doesnt deserve jail at all.

At 11/12/03 08:24 PM, _Kakashi_ wrote: Number one the communist globally between Mao , Stalin , Pol Pot
Regime in Cambodia , the slaughtering in Tibet , the destruction of Afghanistan by the Soviets bombing the country to rubble , the curroption amongst government officials , the terriably low standerd of liveing in east germeny and the great cost to the western world to bring east germeny into the 20th century , the large Russian military budget ( The Russians spent 10 times more of there gnp on military hardware then the U.S. ) , the butchering at Katyn , the Russians dispersion of butterfly mines that maimed thousands of children throughout Afghanistan .
In-summation not only does communism have a horribly bloody history probally costing the lives of 250,000 million people globally , also failed horrably as an economic system , totally bankrupt having to be bailed out by the west - You my friend are preaching a failed dogma that never worked and I must say for a young man your liveing in the 1930s . I have a constructive suggestion to you that explore other avenues and come up with a more humane and kinder system that meets the needs of the less fortunate .

Hmpf. Marxism exists for the less fortunate. I am guessing you are not one yourself (and now your natural action would be to reply claiming you are one, but you will only be lieing to yourself). You would know that your problems would be solved by the destruction of the capital if you were to be one. I could bring up a list much longer than the one you wrote, showing the horrible deeds and works of capitalist system. I could write down the numbers of your so called "less fortunate", I could bring you the spesific number of starvation deaths each year, I could show you unemployment numbers, I could even show you the body count of direct capitalist wars.
At the end of my list, yours would be nothing in comparison. But I will not show you such a list. It would be an unfinished list, and pointless to even broadcast, seing how those numbers rarely lack out to the public eye, or my eye for this matter, at least not the reasons. You can try to imagine the list yourself though.

Oh, and another note, you should know better than judging marxism simply after the episodes of the nation who claimed they held true to that ideology. It is an economical system, not a system of control or mass murdering. Marx would have cried with us all if he had seen your list, Kakashi. I must give you that.

This is bull. Allthough its BBC I dont realy believe this. If all evidence was clear and everything, the german court would of given him much harder punishment. Even in Scandinavia, that guy would of gotten more than 20 years. So I think there were uncertain evidence or something, because these things doesnt regularly happen.

It is all about money, thats why they vote against those resolutions. To the government, protecting their own money means more than human rights, at all times. Not that it matters, but that is not my idea of a free world. By the way, I have heard people saying the USA is 'the' free world. Wow, that is stupid. Its like saying Sweden is the free world. I mean, you are far from alone on this planet, in fact, your not even among the top 3 nations, populational.

I think Hitler was worse, because Stalin actually had no bad intentions. He wanted communism to work in his nation, like it did under Lenin, but he just screwed it up with his fascist shit. And he did never kill as much people as Hitler did. Personally, I think throughout the years, the US imperialist forces is the worst of them all, maybe even worse than what Hitler did. I mean they are the country which has gone through the most wars ever. And through the years I think they are the one who have killed most people.

At 12/2/03 10:16 AM, firebird1 wrote: Communism is bound to failure for three reasons:

1) There is always somthing to be jelous (spelling?) of, someone's looks, their friends etc.

2) There will always be people who will desire to have more than the people around them.

3) If people have nothing special to look forward too then they become disgruntled and ultamatly, pissed off. A pissed off public does not make for a productive country. Pissed off people also tend to take matters into their own hands, and after a while there is every chance that someone will have to come along and scrape your remains off the scenery.

It all comes down to human nature.

Peace

Answer to Firebird1's post:
1) Yes. What the hell does this have to do with communism or economics at all?

2) No, this is not true, and is just propaganda by the capitalist media. It is psychically proven that people want the best for themselves not based on the surroundings. And by people wanting the best for themselves, they want others to have it good as well, because people have it best when they are together with others who are equally good.

3) I think it is more likely that people get pissed because they have to go to work everyday, etc. And what about this system I thought of:
Every day after a day of work, people get a card which is like their licence for that day. It only works for 24 hours and can only be gotten after working for some hours. With that card you can buy food, clothes, anything you wish until a certain limit. No job is placed above another, and students also recieve such cards from schooling. You can not spare the cards, you can only use each new card for 24 hours until you get your next card.

What is nihilism anyway? Just tell me the basic idea(s) behind it.

If everyone voted on everything, it would basicly go to hell after a short period of time. For example, what does an 18 year old girl know about for example, space research founds?

Zalbun, the (good) book named Animal Farm as you are referring to is critisism of the old Stalinist system, or the states-communist system. Where the state owns all instead of none owns anything; the original communist idea of which is never practised in reality.

I'll join, sounds like fun, a bit RPG'ish maybe. Can I be president of the NSP (Newgrounds Secret Police)?

I think Hitler was worse, seing how he killed more than 6 million people for no reason at all. I mean, at least Stalin had [i]some[/i] reasons. Not saying he was any good either though. His so called "communism" went to hell. Fascism along with nazism if you ask me...

At 11/12/03 08:23 AM, UNpossible wrote:

At 11/12/03 07:56 AM, Cacique wrote: What the fuck do you mean? Is it suddenly good to go to war? Going to war only means you are an imperialist nation, which is as bad as it gets! You are all been fucking brainwashed. I realy hope you have read about the French revolution. Without France, you wouldn't even have democracy!

Wow, and I suppose Vietnam was a imperialist country for going to war with Cambodia in 1978.

You know what, so was America in 1778, even though there was no real govt! Oh, and the rebels in Colombia are imperialists as well too!

And kindly correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the AMERICAN revolution come before the French revolution?

That is right, the "american revolution" came right before the french revolution. First, you should remember that without France, you would not of won the revolution, as the french helped the newcommers in almost everything. Second, among other reasons, the French revolution occured almost only because of the american revolution. The French king had used so much food, time and money on helping the americans that the life were like hell for the ordinary man and woman in France.

At 3/18/03 06:54 PM, tiden12 wrote: Honestly heres one why did the french send soldiers into iraq? TO teach them how to surrender i could go on for hours about my feelings. But honestly when was the last time the french actualy fought in a war and dont say ww2 cuz the second germany touched their soil they sirrendered

What the fuck do you mean? Is it suddenly good to go to war? Going to war only means you are an imperialist nation, which is as bad as it gets! You are all been fucking brainwashed. I realy hope you have read about the French revolution. Without France, you wouldn't even have democracy!

At 11/7/03 04:29 PM, blueloa13 wrote:

At 11/7/03 12:44 PM, Cacique wrote:

At 11/5/03 05:27 PM, _Kakashi_ wrote:

At 11/5/03 11:52 AM, Aghh wrote:

Commandant Che Guevara said he was a revolutuionary because of love. This may sound a bit silly, but when one think about it, it is actually not.

He was probably one of the few Communists to do it right

I agree, he was cool. I think the first years of Lenin were good also, before the christians assassination and all that. Sadly, he died and that Stalin bastard took over after him.

I agree with Slizor on this one... I also agree that the electoral system of the States has got some major issues, therefore not everyone are able to predict a candidates future actions. But I still believe one should be able to see the difference from George W. Bush and a fitfull president, for the worlds most dangerous nation.

At 11/5/03 07:38 PM, mmmmmsandwich wrote: Okay im new to this thread but this is my basic outlook on communism:

It wont work because of human nature.Human nature is the instinct to make it better only for yourself and people you're attached to in some way. were like that because of evolution. people who were more like that tended to survive and reproduce more. and if someone had the potential to be a doctor but was currently a paper boy( to use that first example) he might have all he needed or wanted and therefor have no reason to succeed. granted this wouldnt happen all the time or probably even most of the time, but it would happen enought to have a negative impact. and if you wernt competing with other groups (e.g. capitalist companies) you wouldnt need to progress as fast as if you were trying to gain an upper hand. furthermore a classless society couldnt happen because any society needs leaders. im probably just repeatin what has already been said here. and i sincerely doubt anything i say will change anyones opinion in any way. so when i think about it i really have no reason to be posting .

In conclusion any attemp at communism would just end up with another USSR or Peoples Republic of China

democracy has its problems, but id like to see you do better.

we need more capitalism on the big things that are controlled by the government now. like they took over the space technology and look how far thats gone.

and in responce to those who say that communism is an economic principle not a government, you need communism as a government to get communism as an economic principle.

-Peace Out

There are no such thing as "communism as a government", that is total bullshit. Communism is, and nothing else, an economical theory which plays the opposite of the capitalist theory. It is in no way more radical than the capitalist theory, it lies just as hard/much in the left wing as capitalism lies in the right wing. There may be an authoritarian government in a communist nation, and there may also be libertarian government in a communist nation. There can however, never be a communist government, since there is no thing and it would be silly to even think of such things.
Well, LOL, I suppose for example the cafeteria in for example the city hall could be communist, but other then that, the possibilities are small for communism in the government... :)

At 11/6/03 10:59 AM, Aghh wrote: i must say, that almost every human is greedy, even i am in some way

I agree, well, we are not greedy, no one is, but we are all, always struggeling for our own happiness and joy. This is not an argument against communism though. Life amongst the collective is the best life there is. A life where one does not have to do anything directly to even stay alive is the best form of ungreedyness there is...

At 11/5/03 05:27 PM, _Kakashi_ wrote:

At 11/5/03 11:52 AM, Aghh wrote: yeaaaa! bout time we got a real communist crew! and to all you capie's, never heard of if you aint got nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all? so stop critising, it wont change no ones mind, and go complain about it in your own capie crew. anywayz great idea!

Well technically were just stateing opinions and facts wich is perfectly legal since luckily we dont live in a communist nation .

One question to everyone whos communist here , what is your reason for likeing it . Everyone has one and a couple of friends I have are communist have there own reasons but what are yours .

Commandant Che Guevara said he was a revolutuionary because of love. This may sound a bit silly, but when one think about it, it is actually not. If you look at the many facts, not being a communist would be murderous. If you think about how many millions who die out on the streets every year, people who have not made it in the capitalist society, people who have not got any food, clothes or money. You can also think about the even more people who die in the many nations who are extremely poor, nations where more than 5 million children die every year, you could also think about how many billions the US uses on the military each year, only to go to war against some of the, already, poorest nations in the world... And I could go much further, but sadly I do not have the time.

I'll join the club, although I see no specific reason, it might be fun though. Anyways, I agree, there is something seriously wrong when there are more capitalist meanings than communist, in a thread called "Communist Crew"... Shows a little bit of the political ignorance in a certain nation, I choose not to name names! *cough*damnyankees*cough*