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At 3/12/08 06:49 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 3/12/08 06:34 AM, kamil-fucker wrote: perhaps god didn't create us, and 'we' are here for no exact purpose.
just as top of the food chain.

But I'm asking why people who think god did create us think he did.

Fellowship. Here is a verse from Revelation that might say it better.

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11

I'm not going to interpret it, it means what it says. Nice thread btw.

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.

At 3/10/08 05:49 PM, lapis wrote:

At 3/9/08 06:49 PM, Bokushi wrote: Hi Iapis, I wasn't denying what the verse said. Faith without works is dead, I agree. I only said read the context because he was saying it went against the verses I quoted.

Yes, when you said "no, it doesn't" as a reply to his "there is a verse that says that faith is dead without good works" I was sort of in doubt as to what you were saying, considering that, if I'm not mistaken, the belief that faith alone is enough to ensure salvation is a rather important tenet of the Lutheran faith, possibly also among other denominations, however I'm glad we now agree. I'm not getting into the Biblical contradictions debate as it can quickly become tedious, but I just have to say something about your reference to Job 25:5 as I find it funny how it ties into the "context" discussion.

I'm also glad we agree, and yes those discussions can be tedious. I'm not always right, but I want to be, so I went back and looked at the Job passage.

But the whole verse goes: "Lo, even the moon it shines not; the stars, not pure in his sight" (hen, ad yarehakh velo yahayil; vekhokhavim, lo tzaku veyenal). :

I found that your verse is different than mine, only slightly. (That's all it takes)

"Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight."

I don't think you're using the King James Bible. I can't really argue one point or another if we have different versions; that doesn't work. Also not sure what language that was after you quoted the verse but I don't speak it, that's why God got me his word in English. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, with your version that probably seems right.

The Bible version debate is another tedious one that I'd like to avoid, all I know to tell you is that when people's religion didn't fit with the Bible they didn't change their religion, they changed the Bible. I believe the King James Bible AV 1611 to be the perfect word of God in the English language, I've done my research and there are plenty of good books out there if you're interested.

Accordingly, I'm convinced that, based on the context (you replaced the rest of the verse with three dots, but you're only supposed to do this when the rest is irrelevant), the verse does say that the moon shines. :

I guess I was kind of looking at it as a stand alone verse, there are many in the Bible. I did encourage people to look it up themselves though. :)

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.

At 3/10/08 08:36 AM, Earfetish wrote:

At 3/10/08 08:12 AM, Bokushi wrote: You can't treat these passages as if someone wrote them today, these things weren't always known!

Man, not only is your Leviticus quote very dubious in whether it says 'running water gets rid of germs', the quote is about what you should do after having a 'discharge'. And I don't buy your history at all anyway - they still washed their hands with running water when they had crap on them 2000 years ago. :

The entire chapter is about cleansing yourself. It's not "my" history, its history.

http://bible.cc/job/25-2.htm
That is Job 2-2, dipshit, you've got the wrong quote. And when I track down the right quote, you've taken it out of context, it's not saying anything about the moon being the sun's reflected light, it's saying 'shit scary stuff is happening'. :

Yeah you were right I was off by 3 verses... but you were off by 23 chapters, of course I can understand typos unlike some people. It is Job 25:5 and you're wrong. It's talking about the glory of God and how man is nothing compared to him.

The Ecclesiastes passages are clear as day.

Not if you're saying 'this is a revelation about the water cycle'. :

That's clearly the water cycle, what else could it be?

credibility is now gone since you believe in the Flintstones version of prehistory

man you are dumb and it's entirely due to religion :

Credibility seemed to have left your presence a long time ago... and I don't have a religion. Religion never saved anyone, only Jesus Christ can save you.

I'm glad there's someone else with sense on this forum, valid points ABsoldier17.

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Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Prov. 26:5

At 3/10/08 04:06 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 3/10/08 03:26 AM, Bokushi wrote: Wash in running water (not caught on to until 1860s) Leviticus 15:13

Obviously one needs divine revelation to figure out running water makes things clean.

Actually genius, people used to not wash their hands at all when dealing with the sick, and guess what? Sickness spread like fire. And then they started washing their hands but in bowls of water, not running water. So they essentially washed themselves in their own filth... thought this one would be obvious? Apparently people needed this "divine revelation." You can't treat these passages as if someone wrote them today, these things weren't always known!

The earth is round (not flat like people thought)
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..." Isaiah 40:22

Yet, there are other verses that make the earth appear as though it is flat. Contradiction time ^_^ :

Go for it.

The moon reflects the light of the sun (doesn't give its own light like people thought)
"Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not..." Job 25:2

"Dominion and fear [are] with him, he maketh peace in his high places." Erm, what? This is your beloved KJV too, don't you worry. :

What was the point of that verse you mentioned? Couldn't find a reason so you answered with a verse that was not adequate?

Cycle of evaporation and rainfall
"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." Ecclesiastes 1:7

Too vague to be considered "proof".

The Ecclesiastes passages are clear as day.

Dinosaurs? No problem, look for "Behemoth" in Job 40:15-24
(Look it up yourself, to many verses to post)

Scientific evidence unanimously points towards dinosaurs not existing within the last 6000 years, thank you very much. :

Thank you for your scientific opinion. You won't find scientific facts like these in other religious books, you'll find the opposite.

(To the others jumping on the bandwagon)
Harry Potter? Yeah let's respond to fact with fiction. At least it seems like SadisticMonkey is trying to have a conversation. I shortened the verses to give you the just of the verse, look them up yourself if you're concerned.

You've got to admit, now that we're out of the realm of "I think/I feel" and into "here's fact" you're scared. It's easy to think your opinion is higher than another but hard to refute fact unless of course you're a fool. Belief is a choice, you choose not to believe.

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Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Prov. 26:5

At 3/10/08 12:08 AM, Z-Ezekiel wrote: If you want proof of the Bible that depends what you are asking. The main thing the Bible wants is faith not belief through evidence. What comes first is faith then experience then proof. :

I disagree. You want physical, scientific proof that the Bible is true? Easily done.

Wash in running water (not caught on to until 1860s)
"And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean." Leviticus 15:13

The earth in space (not sitting on a giant animal like people thought)
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

The earth is round (not flat like people thought)
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..." Isaiah 40:22

The moon reflects the light of the sun (doesn't give its own light like people thought)
"Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not..." Job 25:2

Cycle of evaporation and rainfall
"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." Ecclesiastes 1:7

Gulf streams and wind currents over the oceans
"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits." Ecclesiastes 1:6

Dinosaurs? No problem, look for "Behemoth" in Job 40:15-24
(Look it up yourself, to many verses to post)

And many, many more. So what are you going to do? The Bible has proven itself throughout the ages, that's why we still have the same old Bible and you have to get a new science text book every year. You don't have to believe the Bible by faith alone, the proof is there. Once you understand that there are things in the Bible that people didn't figure out until thousands of years later, then you can believe the rest by faith. Unless of course you didn't harden your heart to things concerning God, then you could just believe.

Here are some sites that have more information about the Bible and Science, if you're interested.

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingto ol/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml

http://www.fbcny.org/bible/astronomy.htm

At 3/9/08 08:53 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 3/9/08 06:49 PM, Bokushi wrote:

The Bible does not contradict itself;

Are you talking about this particular passage, or the whole bible?

Because if it is the latter, you are horribly mistaken.

I'm talking about the whole Bible. Now you can go ahead and Google "contradictions in the Bible" and then post your findings here if you want. That would be sad if you did so. I've been reading the Bible for many years and have not found any yet. Also let me make it clear that I speak of the King James Bible, AV 1611. Other versions in the English language are corrupt and do contradict themselves.

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.

At 3/9/08 07:56 AM, lapis wrote: I'd really like to hear you explain how the context of this passage makes it imply that faith without deeds in fact isn't dead. Like Drakim said, you can make either case. If you're Protestant and you want to make the case for sola fide you can quote Paul's letters, the Gospel of John and the acts of the apostles. If you're Catholic and want to make the case for faith without deeds/works being dead you can quote the Gospel of Matthew (like 19:16-21) and the letter of James. :

Hi Iapis, I wasn't denying what the verse said. Faith without works is dead, I agree. I only said read the context because he was saying it went against the verses I quoted. The Bible does not contradict itself; God is not the author of confusion. Therefore when you have the majority of passages speaking of salvation through faith alone and one or two that sounds like its faith and works, go with the majority until you understand what the one or two are talking about.

What does this passage have to do with New Testament salvation? Nothing. It mentions how those in the Old Testament followed up their faith with works and its saying, if your faith doesn't follow up with works then your faith is dead. You seem to understand this as you mentioned it in your comment. I don't think you would argue salvation by works. The Bible clearly states that it's by faith in Christ and then after you are saved works will follow, but works do not save you. After all if you can earn it, why did he die?

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.

At 3/8/08 07:43 PM, Drakim wrote: Funny how you label his interpretation as unchristian because it isn't the same as your interpretation, as if you were the very definer of Chritianity itself. What stops him from claiming equally much that your views aren't the real Christianity? :

I didn't interpret anything; I just said what the verses said. And second, he didn't use any scripture at all, he simply said he was Christian and then stated why he is a Christian based on his opinion that is contrary to God's word. And third, I am not the definer of Christianity, nor did I state I was. I told you the Bible was the Definer, did you miss that?

You can basicly find quotes in the Bible for any viewpoint. I know there is a verse that says that faith is dead without good works, which crashes what you say here. :

No, it doesn't. Read the context of the passage.

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.

At 3/7/08 09:34 PM, KennyD wrote: I mean being a christian myself, what we belive in basically boils down to if you live a responsible, honest life, you will be rewarded with Heaven the place of eternal bliss, if not then you are punished in Hell, the eternal place of agony. :

Sorry friend but you are not a Christian because you are trusting in your good works and deeds to get you into heaven when you die. Biblical Christianity teaches that you're a sinner; you can't earn your salvation and therefore your only hope is to put your faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross for eternal life. People need to stop defining Christianity based on Catholicism and what they think Christianity is, there is a written document clearing defining it for you, the Holy Bible (KJV).

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags..." Isaiah 64:6

"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and not that of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"...and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31

Salvation is a free gift to anyone who wants it. Being born into a family that goes to church does not make you a Christian; it's a choice just like being an atheist.

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You are not ready to live until you are ready to die.