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At 2/28/13 04:51 PM, wandschrank wrote:

At 2/28/13 10:02 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.

I don't think that this is important for 99% of NG's audio artists.

Some (like you ;D) study something with music or work in the music biz, but most of us do it as a hobby, and very few of us have enough spare time / luck / are motivated enough.. etc. to earn so much money with their music that they would even consider getting studio session players. I am already surprised by the amount of people here who invest 2412414 Dollars in EWQL stuff (or claim they have and pirate it instead..). It's not that easy to get access to a studio and record something in high quality with expensive hardware if you don't have any connections.

.. Also, all you need as an EDM artist may be a vocalist or someone who masters your track or whatever. ;D

Have to agree with Wandschrank here. Most of us (including me) don't have the luxury of owning a (professional) studio.
Closest I get to handling studio session players is when I have friends over at my house and have them record there, when I ask them to record things at their own house, or when I somehow get some studio time at the local cultural centre (though I'm not the one handling the equipment there). Even then I don't know how to make session players do what I want, how much I should leave up to them, how anyone should record me. The only thing I can do well is record myself, and not even that is always a great succes. Anyhow, I don't have enough experience regarding this.

Interesting topic though. Deadlyfishes can write that one if he wishes. I'd be interesting to read more about it.

At 2/28/13 03:17 PM, Quarl wrote: I'm trying to figure out if you guys are talking about cocks or what. Knock off the four play. Just come out and say it already.

Cocks... Foreplay... No just talking man on man. You know. Good healthy male bondage.

Greatings from NL.

This movie I liked:

• 
  Gowe - Aurora 8/16bit MV by Rikognition

  Animated 8/16-bit Music Video

  Score

  4.33 / 5.00

  Type

  Movie

  Popularity

  22,020 Views

  Rated

  Everyone

This song:

• 
  First Impact by theeketel

  Theeketel - First Impact

  Score

  4.77 / 5.00

  Type

  Song

  Genre

  Nerdcore

  Popularity

  174 Views

• Loading...

this game:

• 
  Under the Moon by MNWS

  Where are you going?

  Score

  3.58 / 5.00

  Type

  Game

  Popularity

  2,388 Views

  Rated

  Everyone

and this artwork:

• 
  Nice to meet you! by keepwalking

  Another one of my crazy crazy titan concepts. Not a verry regular encounter I must admit, I would love to know what would hap...

  Score

  4.763157895 / 5.00

  Type

  Illustration

  Popularity

  5,864 Views

  Rated

  Everyone

At 2/28/13 12:37 PM, Lachi wrote: only if I move all the scalp (is that how you say it?)

Still counts

Yep. Now make a series worthy of Steps music.

At 2/28/13 11:30 AM, Lachi wrote: I still don't see why someone would say "doing x is harder than y", when obviously it comes from experience, skills and other things.

That's what I was thinking. Apples 'n pears.

I can touch my tonsils with my toungue, but for some people is hard (if not impossible), lol

I can't...

I can move my ears though. Can you?

At 2/28/13 10:47 AM, sorohanro wrote: Do anybody know why an expression like "just the tip" isn't make me thinking of icebergs? I bet that what the iceberg told to Titanic also: "don't be scared baby, it will be just the tip", and look how it ended...

It may have just been the tip, but it was very hard. Also the Titanic came very fast.

At 2/28/13 10:28 AM, sorohanro wrote:

At 2/28/13 10:17 AM, SourJovis wrote:

At 2/28/13 10:09 AM, Sequenced wrote: WHAT HAPPENED TO SBB

Don't you mean BDSM?

That's one think you can tell about evolution...

Just the tip of the iceberg

At 2/28/13 10:09 AM, Sequenced wrote: WHAT HAPPENED TO SBB

Don't you mean BDSM?

At 2/28/13 07:16 AM, LiquidOoze wrote: Question

What the fuck is this?

Nerdcore

Hartelijk gefeliciteerd met je verjaardag Envy!
Je bent de beste! Ik ben jaloers ;)
Maak er een mooie dag van, met veel taart, bier en cadeaus!

At 2/27/13 11:00 PM, samulis wrote: Thanks for writing this rant/post/thing again. I do plan on sharing it around, or at least the basic ideas- I think the consensus seen so far in this thread is almost completely unanimous in support of what you said, from all levels of professionals.

Didn't mean to turn it into a rant, but I couldn't help myself. I thought that was going to bite me in the ass. Apperently not. People seem to relate to this.

At 2/27/13 07:19 PM, Breed wrote:

:The ones who are most likely to do everything wrong, are the ones who won't even bother to read it.

Nothing to do about that. Just hope for the best. Samulis told me he was going to show it to all of his clients, so there's a start. He's making a website to "help teach people about orchestral music in general as well as resources for people interested in writing/commissioning orchestral music for games/films.". Sounds useful.

in the business of art, people are quite bad at judging value of both time and work.

Including me. I've started about a hundred projects only to find out it's way too much work. When I'm working on something artistic, I go on for much longer than I have time for. At the cost of sleep, food or important appointments. I just can't seem to stop.

At 2/27/13 10:41 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Also, If you were to release an album via NG, it would just be a bunch of separate links :(

You can make playlists on Newgrounds nowadays can't you. Maybe you can make one link to the playlist of your entire album. Just an idea though. I've never tried the playlist option.

At 2/27/13 06:49 PM, golden-monkey15 wrote: Can you give us any indication when the results will be announced? I can't seem to find info on it. Thanks!

Aigis told me yesterday the results will be there when Tom Fulp posts them. (I don't know when that will be either, but we'll see.)

At 2/27/13 07:19 PM, stunkel wrote: Well, I think that depends on the composer. Someone who doesn't know how to explain a genre or a sub genre or an emotion can easily just send a youtube link. There is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from something, the composer will know if they are straight up copying them

I agree with the second part. Composers should just take the example as a reference for the style nothing more. Unfortunately employers sometimes expect the composer to almost exactly copy the example. I personaly don't like it when someone sends me a youtube link with an example of how I should make a song. Feels indoctrinating. It does more harm than good.

At 2/27/13 07:13 PM, MetalRenard wrote: a) It's bad practice because it leads to copying
b) It's destructive more than anything since you're asking the composer to be a machine, not a creative mind.

That about sums it up.

Nice to see so many comments already. All very fair points. I suppose most of the things I mentioned will only be a problem in extremes cases.

At 2/27/13 02:50 PM, Step wrote: 1.) Rather than to all-out avoid sending YouTube links to musicians, it can actually help.

That's why I said it was a double edged sword. Youtube liks have helped me too. It can tell you something about the taste of the employer, and what he/she expects from you. Example songs can be inspiring. It only becomes a problem if it's unclear what the employer likes about the example song, or if he/she is too focused on getting a song that sounds exactly like the example.

2.) Making clear agreements is harder than it sounds.

Normaly when people are a bit flexible and stay reasonable, you'll come to a solution. If not then you may have problems.

This stuff practically counts for how to handle all kinds of artists, really.

Very true. Since I'm labled as musician here, and that is where most of my experience comes from, I post this here.

At 2/27/13 03:16 PM, frootza wrote: I think this was an awesome thread idea. I hope more people can contribute. Maybe we can find the best way to collaborate between different mediums.

Thanks. I hope so too. I think we can learn a lot by discussing this.

I really don't mind when information isn't specific, or even if it is obscure.

Yes, it only becomes a problem when people are unreasonable about it. When information isn't specific you can just do what you think is right, but you can get complaints afterwards, and you'll have to start over again. It's not always easy for the employer to express what he/she wants. As a musician you have to be patient and ask the right questions. As a project organizer you have to learn how to expres yourself, and leave some of the decisions up to the musicians.

At 2/27/13 02:52 PM, stunkel wrote: This is awesome. I agree with just about everything in here. Nice work typing all of this up!

Glad you like it. I thought a long time about these things. It's also about blowing off some steam for me to be honest.

At 2/27/13 03:18 PM, LichLordMusic wrote: Very well stated. Bookmarked!

That means a lot. Hope it will become only more interesting.

At 2/27/13 03:38 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Calm down there SJ, give the judges time to judge ;P

hehe. Yes of course. I just don't want to miss it.

Hopefully this is the right place to create this thread, if it should be posted anywhere at all.
It is intended to share my opinions based on experience regarding composing for projects.
Hopefully project organizers and musicians engaging in projects alike, will benefit from this.
Since this is a thread, please share your opinions, and discuss this topic so everyone including me will learn more.

Tell musicians what to do, not how to do it.

Many directors are passionate about their projects, and that's a good thing.
It's important to know what you want, in order to express yourself and make it work. But don't let this turn you into a control freak.
If other team members too feel it's their own thing, and be proud of their work,
they will provide the best work. Don't take away their enthusiasm and creativity by forcing limitations on them.
Instead acknowledge other people's skills. If you don't value a musicians skills, you've adopted the wrong one. Choose a composer who's style you think suits your project, and trust they will be able to do that.
What this means in practice; avoid technical details. Especially if you don't know what you're talking about.
What you should do do instead is say where music is wanted, and explain what a scene/level/whatever is about, so the composer can deside how to achieve this goal.

Examples

Wrong way to do it: level 5 - This is the second ice level, so same as previous level, but with more vibe. Minor crashes this time but a major crunch, a tiny bit of dub in between the syncopes, a repetive piano beat with lots of variation played by a saxophone sounding synth, an upfront reagea groove on the 1rst 2nd and 5d count (skip the 7th), , lesbian intercourse, an electro-acoustic drum riff that drags the song on, but should not be consiously determinable (when people think "Hey that's an electro-acoustic drum riff that drags the song on.", than you've failed), and some close by techno in the background. Retro neo-classical, but still modern sounding (: not what in the 50s they thought was futuristic, but what the day after tomorrow they observe as yesterday (you know what I mean ;))).
Right way: level 5 - After the snow storm of level 4, the hero enters the shelter of an ice cavern. It's composed of beautiful ice crystals, but the ground is slippery and there are dangerous pits. I want you to capture the beauty of the ice cavern, as well as the dangers of it. I like you to set this song appart from the previous in some way, even though they're both ice levels. There won't be a map sequence or victory fanfare in between, but this song imediately follows up the one of level 4.

A lot of directors nowadays sent youtube links to songs they think the composer's work should sound like. This is a double edged sword. It may be clearer than a discription (alone). Still it's very limiting to the composer's creativity which is what you should avoid. The composer will provide better work when he/she does what he/she's good at, than when he/she tries to immitate someone else. The new work always has to be different than the example in one way or the other (otherwise it's a one on one copy). It's not always clear what exactly the director likes about the example.
Once a game creator sent me an example of a rap song with electronic beat, and said "I want this, but without the rap and electronic instruments, and no hip hop, but classical instead so it fits in a medieval rpg setting." Can you imagine I didn't know what to do with that?

The composer has to be in the loop.

The more a composer knows about the project, the better the work will fit the project. As a director this means you should show the composer as much as you can about the project. eg screenplay, storyboard, concept art, unfinished cuts, demos, etc.
The composer has to be open to this, and not just stay in his/her own little world. The composer has to try to actively understand the project. Show interest, ask the right questions etc.

Communicate.

This is as important for the musician as it is for the director, since communication has to come from both directions. Be approachable. There are several mediums to communicate so be skilled in as many as you can, and try to find one that works for both. Keep checking in on each other every on or two weeks. If one sends an e-mail, better answer as quick as you can. I know people are busy, but it's simply better when you don't leave coworkers hanging.
I know it seems like an open door, but here is where it goes wrong most of the time. Sending out an e-mail each week with new songs and questions, only to get a response several months later saying "Awesome", is very frustrating a demotivating (and yes this literally happened).

Make clear agreements.

Some people like to make strict schedules, others need freedom and prefer to just see what happens. This often clashes. Any way, in order to make things happen you have to make certain agreements. Make it clear what one expects of the other. If things don't work out, let it know as soon as possible, so new arrangements can be made.
Avoid shifting finish lines. Few things are more frustrating than thinking you're (almost) done, only to get more work, and more after that, and after that. What you than get is people stop doing anything because they know that when they're done they only get more work. People have to have a sense of when their work is finished. Ask for a reasonable amount of work, and allow the composer to plan it.
I once was asked to make an already lengthy soundtrack, and when after four months I was 80% done I got news plans were changed. The amount of work I had to do was trippled, and half of what I'd done wouldn't be used. Not nice.
The people involved have an obligation to meet their agreements. Once a project leader told me he didn't have to finish the project. This is very honest, but I had to tell him I wouldn't waste any of my time on it then. Worse would have been if I wasted several years of my life on a project, only to have the project canceled. The only thing you can do about that is take on assignments you think will see the light. Have a back-up plan, like "If the project won't be finished I can use this sound track as an album of my own, or for another project."

Now I notice I focus a little too much on the negative side, and I apologize for that. I don't mean to criticize directors. I respect people organising a project, and I love to be on board of some interesting ones. Just providing my point of view. The problems you encounter stay with you more than the things that go smoothly.

Any directors, musicians an other people who read this, please comment on what your collaboration experiences and opinions are, and whether or not you agree with what I said. Fire away.

fixed

ps sorry for the double post.

Waterlam bappy 2day? Hurthday 2 u den!!!

No under judgement games and movies. Publishing busted again?

At 2/25/13 05:52 PM, Nacholuskey wrote: Thank you SourJovis and i wishes you good luck for your own comic. :)

Thanks Nacholuskey.

Btw when will we have the results?

At 2/25/13 12:42 AM, Nacholuskey wrote: where do i post my work, already?

I'm afraid it's too late now, but you were supposed to post it here

I also had trouble finding it, but I just searched the art forum.

Hope you could still submit it in time.

Posted my work. Making up for not handing anything in the previous time. Was fun. Good luck everyone.

This is my entry:

• 
  Cheesy Girl by SourJovis

  This is my entry for comic jam 4. "Stolen" is the theme. It's about a girl who's cheese get stolen.

  Score

  0.000000000 / 5.00

  Type

  Pixel Art

  Popularity

  1 View

  Rated

  Everyone

Hope you like it.

Got a nice story, but it's a little long to complete in one day.

At 2/21/13 06:11 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: If you're not sure about it, put it in miscellaneous, and use the tags system to label any genre you want to it.

That's a good idea. I think I'll go with that. Thanks.

Still I wonder what people think about 8-bit in the classic section. Most people put 8-bit standard in the video game section, but 8-bit doesn't equal video game. The song in question isn't made for video games. It's classical music played with 8-bit sounds. Is it than still classical?

Anyway I'll just put in under miscellaneous, with propper tags.

Going to upload a chiptune song. Since there isn't a chiptune genre, is it okay to upload it in classical, or will that upset some people?

Comparing apples with pears.
Saying playing saxophone takes more effort than making techno is like saying winning the olympics in swimming is more difficult than running. It just depends on what you practice and what you're good at. Different things, different people.
No matter what kind of instrument you play or what kind of music you make, you compete with anyone who does the same thing, and not with those that do something else. In any case, you have to try the best you can, and that's always as difficult as can be.