At 4/19/08 11:27 AM, Captain-Jack wrote:
Good on you for being willing to exercise that discretion. But the clear intolerance exists in there being a clearly written rule published which makes it a bannable "offence" (for lack of a better word) for users to post in their native language.
You make it sound a lot worse when you paraphrase it, though. The rule is "Posting excessively in a language other than English for the sole purpose of excluding other users." The possible reaction of "man, that's pretty intolerant" is what's averted when the "English only" rule is qualified as only applying to when you're posting in another language to exclude others.
NG is an international website. It has a huge range of fans spanning the entire globe. I understand if you ban people for breaking substantive rules while speaking another language, but banning people for speaking another language alone is bigoted. It's bigoted because it is discriminatory for no other reason than that person is speaking their own, albeit different, language.
Yea, I guess so. To be fair though, we're not banning them because of any personal intolerance for their language, just the logistics behind allowing its use and consequently potential for abuse. And in defense of the thread you've read, the rule probably started out a lot more heavy-handed. The rules page has since been updated.
The boundaries between nature and subject are always blurred, especially where tools such as babelfish exist to allow one unfamiliar with a foreign language to ascertain what is being said. In circumstances such as those, I believe it would be far easier for me to translate a discussion in another language than it would be for me to translate a topic on advanced rocket science.
Eh, I dunno. Online translators aren't always so reliable. Colloquialisms certainly aren't kept up with, and often offensive swear words are omitted from the translators entirely. That's mostly the problem. Obviously if people were always willing to post reasonably and not trash other users, it might not be a problem, but then we wouldn't even need the rules or moderators in the first place.
And even if that weren't the case, who cares if a topic is exclusionary in that way if it is not breaking any other rules? Users browsing the forums click on a topic, and if it's a topic they wish to participate in, they reply to the post. If they're not interested, they leave it alone. Dire consequence of exclusion averted.
But if it's in another language, they may want to post in the topic but find themselves unable. I know what you're saying here, but you've got to understand how it could be exclusionary to be posting in a different language than what the majority here speak. http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/8706 35 is a great example. The guy raised a great point, but nobody could really access it. He'd purposely written it in such a way that even though translators would provide you with the jist of his point, you couldn't really respond reasonably without a good grasp on spanish itself.
You're advocating what I believe to be an inherently repugnant rule. And I get the feeling a couple of the other mods just might agree with me, even if you don't. But these other mods would not speak up because they know who created the rule. Therein lies the lack of freedom associated with being a moderator, Evark- doesn't it? You and I know there are a lot of negative things that could be said about the attitudes of a certain person on these forums. And if you don't know it, you'll figure it out soon- believe me. The difference is, I can speak up about situations like these, whereas mods have to keep their mouths shut, or suffer the consequences.
*defending. And yea, my hands are kinda tied in the way you describe, I guess. And yea, there's negatives to most everyone around here, but I'm the sort who just prefers to look at and advance the reasonable and the positive. I could get all up in arms about any policy I don't agree with, or I could just understand where it's coming from, know that I don't really have much more say than anyone else on the subject except that I can state my point well, and move on. That's just my nature, though. You're one who's been around long enough to probably notice that pattern in my posts.
Hell, one of these days I may get banned, or my account may be deleted. But if its over something as important as this- it would be ten times worth it.
I admire your devotion, I suppose. Though selfishly enough, I'd rather you weren't deleted. You're an institution on the Newgrounds I've come to enjoy.
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Meh. It's connotation rather than denotation that makes me think you're over-reacting here. According to that denotation, YOU'RE being bigoted for being intolerant of another's policy and strongly in favor of your own.
People who speak foreign languages can be categorised as falling into a different group, and making it a bannable offence simply for speaking another language is bigotry. Plain and simple.
It's not that simple though. The spirit of the rule is not in excluding other languages so much as it is in avoiding the logistical problems they bring. The website isn't set up to support polylinguism. It's inherently bigoted that the site is entirely in English? Is it intolerance that 99.9% of the userbase here speaks or understands English? Is it entirely unreasonable to request that users keep the discussion in the language EVERYONE here already understands? The rule is trying to promote equality in that most aren't likely to bother translating pages and pages of posts in a different language, including us moderators. And if we're not moderating a discussion, it's not fair to enforce the rules on others who aren't gifted with fluency in a language the moderators don't understand.
Think of it more like a request than absolute law. That's how I take it, anyway. It's a plea for the sake of reasonability that people keep their stuff fair game. It's the same concept that NSFW rules are based on. Some consideration to those who want to still participate in the boards but wouldn't be able to if NSFW stuff was all over the place and unlabelled. The why behind the inability is different here, but it's a similar concept otherwise.
And I want to qualify that my argument here is not for you to necessarily agree with the rule, as I don't necessarily either. But just to understand that it's reasonable and act accordingly, as I do.