At 11/14/09 09:26 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
Here's a problem as i see it.
Religion says !
So what ?
What if religion is WRONG.
If you're referring to certain religions are wrong while others are right, then it would be the believer's job to not just blindly follow a religion because of what everyone says about it, but to read the texts, see what the religion says and preaches for, see why it preaches for what it does. And compare them, see which seems to be the most plausible one.
You can't have that if you follow one particular religious belief.
And even if you're following a religion that is incorrect, (in islam atleast) as long as you believe in God, and do not break basic rules of religion (like stealing, adultery, drinking alcohol, not praying) then you're all good. Because in essence you'll find that most religions (here I am referring to Judaism, Christianity and Islam) pretty much say the same thing, or very similar things. Some parts may have been lost/edited to bad translations and over time, but the basic structure is there.
At 11/15/09 01:49 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:
No, I think we DO need to go to that argument, because I've never heard a truly good reason as to why this needs to be other then "cause God said so".
Well, I was simply trying to get the topic at hand finished before moving on to another argument. But..
God never says exactly why he is testing his creation. He only says that he created humans and Jinn (i believe the correct translation of that would be demons) to worship God and to cultivate and explore the earth. Why He created the universe and is testing us? It's just never said.
Isn't that what Christians WANT anyway? They want everyone to share their belief in their God so they don't go to hell and burn and be punished and all that shiz? Don't they want to give heaven to everyone? Or is it more like they want heaven to be a more exclusive cool kids club?
That's what the people want. But it is not the way God intended it. Sure they're going to try and get as many people to believe in their religion, but there is always that doubt in the atheists group that makes following you're religion an actual challenge.
The rich example stinks. Not all the rich give to the poor or are defined by such an act. Rich people are defined by having more money then average. Yes you can't have police without criminals but again...the fuck does that really have to do with God? It opens up again the whole can of "why does a loving God allow crime and badness? The hell is the point of that?" You're just putting out the same vague arguments that always come up when a theist debates those points, confident seemingly that either there's a sea of like minded folks who will go "that makes perfect sense" or just that conviction has the power to make it sound more true and logical. It doesn't work that way, try again :)
why does a loving God allow crime and badness
As I said, since God created life as a test, all of what happens in the world, it's all a test. When let's say a thief, who steals and kills, gets a very happy life, never gets caught, gets married and has a happy life and die happily. And then there's a poor guy, who didn't want to resort to stealing, lived his life in misery and poverty while believing in God. He was then blamed to have stolen/killed somebody and died in prison...
Now in that example, it would be very hard to see that thief, who has broken all the rules, and lives happily ever after, while the other, trying to stay true to God, has lived a horrible miserable life. So that guy believing in God is tested at this point. If he's stayed true to God throughout his life, then all the suffering he endured would equal great pleasures in heaven. While obviously, the other would go to hell.
Just because you believe in God and he loves you, doesn't mean that protects you from what happens on earth. All of this is test. Hell, the more you're a good follower of God, the more you could be tested. And furthermore, God doesn't "love us all", and he's not punishing us for past sins. He only loves his followers, and any "punishments" that could happen would be an opportunity in disguise, an opportunity to gain more in the end.
Except when he creates an earth which has the occasional mass murdering tsunami. Then the test thingy rather than "God just wants to love us" makes more sense. Hard to love somebody who watches you die as a result of his past actions
Explained in the above paragraph.
God created evil because good cannot exist without an opposite. How can you not understand that?
Exactly that as well.
Yeah thanks Jack. God can break all the rules of logic, except for ones that currently exist and run contrary to the usual definitions of God.
In other words, God can do anything, except where it's convenient to say that he can't.
God created those rules, and he could remove them. But wouldn't that then mess up the world and be a paradox?